Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[aa9511]

I too think this latest "lead" will not end up anywhere. I hope so, I pray that they find her and that's the end of that, case closed.

 

[goldengirl57]

Is express a tabloid. This link states they know the name of the man. WTH? http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/43...-snatcher-Police-get-new-lead-from-Crimewatch

This was 16th. The headline is simply taken from several callers who mentioned the same name for the man seen. This could simply mean several callers rang and said oh yeh thats Elvis Presley carrying a child from the creche....if you get my drift. They use these things to make people buy newspapers. Its terrible reporting.........

Several different names but also several callers mentioned the same name for that man. It is always signifi- cant if callers call in with the same name for an individual."

 

[goldengirl57]

But it didn't cause a massive manhunt. As far as I can tell, no one among the Tapas group rushed in that direction when Ms. Tanner told them she saw a Madeleine-like girl in pink pajamas being carried in that direction. Wouldn't you have proceeded in that exact direction shouting your daughter's name if you had heard that? There was always the posibility that she would hear your voice and respond.
(I agree with your baloney opinion!)

Sorry hun, perhaps i should have said after the incident there was a massive manhunt for this person in the UK. It was on every paper, every news channel, the McCanns PR constantly pushing it, blah blah blah, it got to the point i didnt want to put the telly on. Even crimewatch newspapers showed the man walking with the child........

BUT as to your highlighted part yes exactly a very good point made.x

 

[goldengirl57]

I am having a disheartened moment. I cannot help but be cynical with regards to the little blonde girl found living with the Roma. Seems a little coincidental that one of the earliest theories surrounding the Madeleine case was that she was 'abducted by gypsies' and here, just when Madeleine is back in the news, we see a child recovered giving the McCanns 'renewed hope'. Heckish coincidental don't you think.

Also we hear that Bundleman supposedly exists (never mind that Tanner said he was going the other way), and she now appears, to Joe Public, to have been telling the truth all along.

As for the Smiths' sighting, how long until the investigation reveals a faceless someone who they say walked down that side street that night, looking a bit like GM, carrying a child? Then no more leads, closure....and loads more book material.

The Government helped the McCanns in 2007 and are now spending taxpayers' money on this investigation. The McCanns wanted it. I think I can guess the outcome. I hope I'm wrong.

jmo

I said this to my hubby yesterday, what are the chances you find one blonde supposedly 4 year old girl in a gypsy camp. Well that is not true really the Roma people were living in a proper municipality, like our council houses in the uk, and were governed by local councillors like in the uk...

IF this child was found in a Roma camp high in the mountains hidden away from everywhere I might have sat up and thought flipping heck....

But really...this child was found in a house surrounded by other houses, with lots of neighbours and kids. EVERYONE has turned out to support the roma parents. They even say the father is around but wont come forward as he is an illegal from albania.

IF these Roma gypsies had an abducted child for 4 years, I would think someone would have rumbled them...ALSO if we are to believe the stories they took this child into the street to dance for money for the TOURISTS, where are all the tourists who would have then rang someone and said Maddy is dancing in the streets in Greece, or THERE ARE ROMA GYPSIES in the street with a dancing BLONDE CHILD who is clearly not theirs.........

What I also find odd, is if they had abducted the child why would all the neighbours come forward and defend them. They would keep their heads down surely.

ALSO...the child was registered, and seen by a doctor so hardly hiding the child.

And the most telling thing for me was an official yesterday on the news who said in all the years no one has ever heard of a Roma Gypsy keeping a child, caring for it, paying for it, and looking after it when its not their own. They stuggle to survive as it is in this economic climate and some have had to sell their children to adoption agencies as they cant afford to feed them....

The fact the child seemed to have more then the other children, and had more toys could bear out the fact her father is still around and bringing her stuff.....

NO something really off about this story....Probably the child was clocked and instead of doing investigation with the local authorities overkill stepped in, and then the media used this finding to match to Maddy etc, and sell lots and lots of newspapers to gullible people.

IF they did abduct this child then they deserve to be punished but something just doesnt sit right .........its not logical.....

 

[aa9511]

I said this to my hubby yesterday, what are the chances you find one blonde supposedly 4 year old girl in a gypsy camp. Well that is not true really the Roma people were living in a proper municipality, like our council houses in the uk, and were governed by local councillors like in the uk...

IF this child was found in a Roma camp high in the mountains hidden away from everywhere I might have sat up and thought flipping heck....

But really...this child was found in a house surrounded by other houses, with lots of neighbours and kids. EVERYONE has turned out to support the roma parents. They even say the father is around but wont come forward as he is an illegal from albania.

IF these Roma gypsies had an abducted child for 4 years, I would think someone would have rumbled them...ALSO if we are to believe the stories they took this child into the street to dance for money for the TOURISTS, where are all the tourists who would have then rang someone and said Maddy is dancing in the streets in Greece, or THERE ARE ROMA GYPSIES in the street with a dancing BLONDE CHILD who is clearly not theirs.........

What I also find odd, is if they had abducted the child why would all the neighbours come forward and defend them. They would keep their heads down surely.

ALSO...the child was registered, and seen by a doctor so hardly hiding the child.

And the most telling thing for me was an official yesterday on the news who said in all the years no one has ever heard of a Roma Gypsy keeping a child, caring for it, paying for it, and looking after it when its not their own. They stuggle to survive as it is in this economic climate and some have had to sell their children to adoption agencies as they cant afford to feed them....

The fact the child seemed to have more then the other children, and had more toys could bear out the fact her father is still around and bringing her stuff.....

NO something really off about this story....Probably the child was clocked and instead of doing investigation with the local authorities overkill stepped in, and then the media used this finding to match to Maddy etc, and sell lots and lots of newspapers to gullible people.

IF they did abduct this child then they deserve to be punished but something just doesnt sit right .........its not logical.....

:scared: :scared:.....I"m having enough trouble keeping the Madeleine case straight, can't think about any connection of this case to that one!!

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I said this to my hubby yesterday, what are the chances you find one blonde supposedly 4 year old girl in a gypsy camp. Well that is not true really the Roma people were living in a proper municipality, like our council houses in the uk, and were governed by local councillors like in the uk...

IF this child was found in a Roma camp high in the mountains hidden away from everywhere I might have sat up and thought flipping heck....

But really...this child was found in a house surrounded by other houses, with lots of neighbours and kids. EVERYONE has turned out to support the roma parents. They even say the father is around but wont come forward as he is an illegal from albania.

IF these Roma gypsies had an abducted child for 4 years, I would think someone would have rumbled them...ALSO if we are to believe the stories they took this child into the street to dance for money for the TOURISTS, where are all the tourists who would have then rang someone and said Maddy is dancing in the streets in Greece, or THERE ARE ROMA GYPSIES in the street with a dancing BLONDE CHILD who is clearly not theirs.........

What I also find odd, is if they had abducted the child why would all the neighbours come forward and defend them. They would keep their heads down surely.

ALSO...the child was registered, and seen by a doctor so hardly hiding the child.

And the most telling thing for me was an official yesterday on the news who said in all the years no one has ever heard of a Roma Gypsy keeping a child, caring for it, paying for it, and looking after it when its not their own. They stuggle to survive as it is in this economic climate and some have had to sell their children to adoption agencies as they cant afford to feed them....

The fact the child seemed to have more then the other children, and had more toys could bear out the fact her father is still around and bringing her stuff.....

NO something really off about this story....Probably the child was clocked and instead of doing investigation with the local authorities overkill stepped in, and then the media used this finding to match to Maddy etc, and sell lots and lots of newspapers to gullible people.

IF they did abduct this child then they deserve to be punished but something just doesnt sit right .........its not logical.....

and a blonde blue eyed 7yr old has been taken from a Roma family in Dublin

http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stor...-eyed-girl-7-taken-from-roma-family-in-dublin

 

[~n/t~]

This was 16th. The headline is simply taken from several callers who mentioned the same name for the man seen. This could simply mean several callers rang and said oh yeh thats Elvis Presley carrying a child from the creche....if you get my drift. They use these things to make people buy newspapers. Its terrible reporting.........

Several different names but also several callers mentioned the same name for that man. It is always signifi- cant if callers call in with the same name for an individual."

If several callers called in with same name I think it's very significant.

 

[~n/t~]

:scared: :scared:.....I"m having enough trouble keeping the Madeleine case straight, can't think about any connection of this case to that one!!

No connection. The girl is not Madeleine. BUT there is a slight possibility that Madeleine was sold to gypsies.

 

[SapphireSteel]

No connection. The girl is not Madeleine. BUT there is a slight possibility that Madeleine was sold to gypsies.

Gypsies are often involved in trade, but usually not actually purchasing from non-Roma very often, especially things they can make or supply themselves.

Such as children.

:cow:

In fact I would almost guarantee no gypsy has ever purchased a non-Roma child in the history of the universe.

"Aquired" them, sure, and sold them too probably, but they would have exactly zero reason to purchase a non-Roma child for themselves.

It makes no sense. KWIM? The Roma have their own children.

 

[aa9511]

Been thinking of just everything surrounding this case....I can't help but wonder what did the McCanns's think would happen? *****I'm coming from the standpoint of thinking they had something to do with her death, whether accidental or otherwise, and covered-up her death:

- Did they think there would not be much media attention and thus after a few months....any investigation would come to a stalemate....they can return to a new sense of "normalcy"?
- but didn't they start the whole media circus and have perpetuated it?
- not to mention, they would have to have been CERTAIN that the body would not be discovered.......or at least not discovered soon, maybe they were ok with the chance of it being discovered later at some point after the body would have deteriorated to the point of not recovering any evidence from it. But how were they so sure it could not be discovered while they were out during their "media tour" and putting on their whole act in front of the world?

- I'm assuming they were thinking they would "get out of it" eventually after the case came to stalemate and people lost interest. Because they could not possibly have envisioned keeping this act up for....maybe forever?? Constantly lying, it must be extreme pressure on them. But yet.....they don't seem to want to just "lie low," they seem to be putting themselves back in the spotlight after every few months.

- Maybe they didn't realize what the public interest and attention would be....and so they're just capitalizing on their "opportunity" to make money through book/"the fund." But that just isn't normal. Maybe they feel like the media is benefiing from, in their minds, attacking them, so why shouldn't they "fight back?" But wouldn't you be so broken down from everything (death of your child and subsequent cover-up and charade) that you would just want to lay low and stay quiet?

- Maybe they put themselves back in the spotlight through PR people/lawyers because they fear there is some possiblity down the line that they might still be prosecuted for something, whether in UK or Portugal (don't know how the laws work, though as far as could UK press any charges since it happened in Portugal, and could Portugal do anything because they are back in the UK?) So they are constantly trying to be on the "defensive."

- But (and like I said I am coming from the veiwpoint that poor Madeleine is already dead and they know it).....wouldn't the easiest way for them to "get out of everything" at this point be that somebody randomly finds Madeleine's bones somewhere (I'm really sorry for this sensitive point, just trying to see what they were/are possibly thinking)? Then they can have proof that she is dead, investigators wouldn't be able to determine anything about what happened due to body being deteriorated, and they can be released from having to put up this whole act. Case closed, they can return to some semblance of a normal life.

- So were they thinking someone might eventually find the bones? Because I am not seeing how they would start this whole act if they could foresee that they would have to do this act in the face of extreme attention for like I said, possibly forever (if no body ever found?)? Because if they knew she was dead, of course no one would ever come up with a living Madeleine.

- So what did they think was going to happen?? How would they come out of this? I can only think of 2 things....either someone discovered Madeleine's bones at some point....or they thought the investigation would just get closed after no leads going anywhere and no new information.

 

[~n/t~]

A former detective believes the suspect lives close to where the smiths saw the man. Not sure if this was posted already

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...hes-of-suspect-could-be-breakthrough-in-case/

 

[~n/t~]

Gypsies are often involved in trade, but usually not actually purchasing from non-Roma very often, especially things they can make or supply themselves.

Such as children.

:cow:

In fact I would almost guarantee no gypsy has ever purchased a non-Roma child in the history of the universe.

"Aquired" them, sure, and sold them too probably, but they would have exactly zero reason to purchase a non-Roma child for themselves.

It makes no sense. KWIM? The Roma have their own children.

You're correct. What I actually meant to say they got money for taking in the child.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It started with a deceased Madeleine.

Someone had a hand in killing her in my humble opinion, whether it was by "accidental" overdose or something far darker.

These people covered up her death by faking a kidnapping.

They did not expect to get caught. No one ever does.

It helps to remember that when looking for explanations - sometimes, the perp simply didn't forsee that witness, that particular step that tripped them up, that cctv camera that caught them where they swore they hadn't been, the cell pings they forgot about.

I am starting to struggle with the possibility of this being the worst sort of crime imaginable. Like the IDI's, I just cannot let my brain go there.

Unfortunately the worst answer is looking like the correct answer more and more in my opinion. I also think the MDI's already have enough derision, suggesting an intentional act would really bring the house down so I'm not adding fuel to the fire.

:seeya:

If the worst case scenario I'm fearing is true, there's both cause and motive right there.

:sick:

 

[Tulessa]

It's good to have friends in high places I guess. The McCanns requested it and David Cameron agreed, apparently. I wonder if other missing children's cases are taken as seriously by the government and if not, why not.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13386785

What guilty parent would request SY to help in this investigation? There's just too many coinquindks in this case, to make me think they are guilty. I honestly think they are innocent. JMO.

 

[aa9511]

A former detective believes the suspect lives close to where the smiths saw the man. Not sure if this was posted already

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...hes-of-suspect-could-be-breakthrough-in-case/

I wouldn't take what they say too seriously. We were just talking about this on another thread....someone posted a CBS news article talking about the case which we knew was simply wrong and missing key facts. So what a coincidence,,,this also happens to be a CBS article. So I wouldn't take what they say as fact, because they are probably quoting people hired by McCann PR firm........

 

[aa9511]

It started with a deceased Madeleine.

Someone had a hand in killing her in my humble opinion, whether it was by "accidental" overdose or something far darker.

These people covered up her death by faking a kidnapping.

They did not expect to get caught. No one ever does.

It helps to remember that when looking for explanations - sometimes, the perp simply didn't forsee that witness, that particular step that tripped them up, that cctv camera that caught them where they swore they hadn't been, the cell pings they forgot about.

I am starting to struggle with the possibility of this being the worst sort of crime imaginable. Like the IDI's, I just cannot let my brain go there.

Unfortunately the worst answer is looking like the correct answer more and more in my opinion. I also think the MDI's already have enough derision, suggesting an intentional act would really bring the house down so I'm not adding fuel to the fire.

:seeya:

If the worst case scenario I'm fearing is true, there's both cause and motive right there.

:sick:

bbm

But with the whole "abduction" scenario....could they not imagine that people would then want to look for Madeleine and there would have to be some investigation done, however short? I mean, they would have to have predicted at least some sort of investigation into where this child went. I am thinking they thought that this might take 1-2 months at max and then the eventually everything would just come to a natural stop because of course there would be no new leads.

That is what I'm trying to figure out is that they obviously had to think about this abduction scenario in order to plan it out, and yet they didn't think about what would happen afterwards?

 

[redheadedgal]

That death smell is released postmortem and the minimum is two hours after a body has expired for it to be released.

from verified K9SAR "sarx" in the lisa irwin cadaver dog thread:

Some dogs cannot find anything unless the person has been dead for a few hours, some can pick up the scent after just a few minutes of death.

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I also don't understand why some posters use statistics on the accuracy of cadaver dogs and scent-hounds to discredit inclusive evidence. Yet statistics on child homicide are ignored that clearly show it is usually a parent or other close family member or someone closely associated with the family who kills the child.

excellent observation... thank you!
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Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes

1) were the dogs/handlers used in this study FBI dogs? (aka "top of their field")
2) mr. grime has spoken out about handler cueing himself (and this itself tells me that he purposefully avoids any behavior that might affect --cue-- his dogs):

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.ca/2008/08/martin-grime-report-to-pj-mccann-case.html
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We discussed this at length on mirror forum before it was zapped

i read there too until it just POOFED

 

[aa9511]

What guilty parent would request SY to help in this investigation? There's just too many coinquindks in this case, to make me think they are guilty. I honestly think they are innocent. JMO.

I understand and respect your opinion, Tulessa. But if they are innocent than why so many inconsistencies between all of the Tapas group? I too think there are many coinkidinks (love that word!), except pointing the other way....

 

[aa9511]

Also, I have to add that I would not want ANY of this Tapas group as my doctor! To think that if it is true that they helped McCann's cover-up, and not one foresaw that this would be a BAD IDEA and they went along with it. I guess it's true like SS said, they thought police would buy their "abductor" story....still even if we take that as a given.........even then what about the "search" for the child, what about investigation....all these things have to be done....did they think Portugal is a 3rd world country where that might not happen?

And that's not to mention that there are many holes in their "abduction," did they think the detectives would not catch onto any of this?? Makes me think they think they are so much smarter than "regular" people, by that meaning anyone not in the high uppers of society.........................

 

[Deleted member 39678]

from verified K9SAR "sarx" in the lisa irwin cadaver dog thread:


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excellent observation... thank you!
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1) were the dogs/handlers used in this study FBI dogs? (aka "top of their field")
2) mr. grime has spoken out about handler cueing himself (and this itself tells me that he purposefully avoids any behavior that might affect --cue-- his dogs):



http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.ca/2008/08/martin-grime-report-to-pj-mccann-case.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



i read there too until it just POOFED

The UC Davis study on cueing was done using 18 handler/dog teams that were certified by a "law enforcement agency." It wasn't specified which agency's where involved so it can't be said if any from the FBI where used in the study or not.

The part that you quoted where Grime mentions "direct the search" is where "cueing" can be a problem. Handlers use pointing gestures or verbal "commands" to direct the dogs on where they want them to search. A handlers posture may even inadvertently "cue" the dog.

Recent research has shown that these signals may cause inadvertent "cueing" causing false alerts. I'm not saying that happened in this case but it's something that I consider when a HRD dog alerts but there's nothing to corroborate it. Here's some links for more information if anyone's interested.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/arusensminger_papet2011.htm

http://doglawreporter.blogspot.com/2013/09/pointing-gestures-and-false-alerts.html