Madeleine McCann general discussion thread #28

[haden]

So, if we assume someone was in the apartment from 9pm to 9.30 pm and there was dogs route and Smiths sighting at 9.55, and change in apartment looks between Matt (9.25) and Kate (10pm) then there is an indication someone possibly was in the apartment for a quite long period of time, opening and closing doors, opening windows.. what he/she was doing there???

 

[SapphireSteel]

The only person whose fingerprints were found on the shutter in the relevant position were Kates.

There has never been a reasonable explanation as to why an "abductor" would open a window when there were two unlocked doors, one of which he'd already passed through.

I suggest there was no abductor. :scared:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Also, the dogs have told us Madeleine died in 5a, most likely behind the sofa somehow.

What abductor would take a deceased child?

 

[haden]

The only person whose fingerprints were found on the shutter in the relevant position were Kates.

There has never been a reasonable explanation as to why an "abductor" would open a window when there were two unlocked doors, one of which he'd already passed through.

I suggest there was no abductor. :scared:

That doesn't mean no abductor.
It means only he either used gloves or wiped his/her fingerprints.

 

[SapphireSteel]

That doesn't mean no abductor.
It means only he either used gloves or wiped his/her fingerprints.

True.

But why open a window when the doors were unlocked?

 

[haden]

Also, the dogs have told us Madeleine died in 5a, most likely behind the sofa somehow.

What abductor would take a deceased child?

Wasn't the tile taken off from the place where the dogs indicated and in this place the DNA found wasn't Madeleine's but the DNA from the two PJ forensics teams staff

 

[haden]

True.

But why open a window when the doors were unlocked?

This we don't know and I assume nobody knows..

 

[Hexe]

That doesn't mean no abductor.
It means only he either used gloves or wiped his/her fingerprints.

Gloves, okay, I can buy that. But an abductor, kidnapping the kid and then coming back to the apartment, to run around with a rag and wipe the fingerprints... Now that is too much for me.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This we don't know and I assume nobody knows..

It is one of the pieces that doesn't fit with an abductor scenario.

It does fit with staging.

:cow:

 

[Inana]

Wasn't the tile taken off from the place where the dogs indicated and in this place the DNA found wasn't Madeleine's but the DNA from the two PJ forensics teams staff

And then the blood dog alerted to the place where the tile had been. So I guess the McCann's retiled the apartment in their haste to cover up their crime? Or the unidentified dna seeped through the tile to the grout underneath?

And if dna found could be traced to Madeleine, why wasn't it a 100% match?

Another question I've had is, the PJ found blood splatter visible in the children's bedroom and were able to identify at least one specimen as having come from a man. Why didn't the dogs alert to the obvious blood on the wall? Did they just miss that, or did no one tell Grime about what was found so he could cue the dogs?

All my own opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[haden]

Gloves, okay, I can buy that. But an abductor, kidnapping the kid and then coming back to the apartment, to run around with a rag and wipe the fingerprints... Now that is too much for me.

Oh, that is too dramatical. It doesn't have a to be a rag, a bit of toilet paper would do.. then he puts it in his pocket..isn't this not feasible?

 

[SapphireSteel]

And then the blood dog alerted to the place where the tile had been. So I guess the McCann's retiled the apartment in their haste to cover up their crime? Or the unidentified dna seeped through the tile to the grout underneath?

And if dna found could be traced to Madeleine, why wasn't it a 100% match?

Another question I've had is, the PJ found blood splatter visible in the children's bedroom and were able to identify at least one specimen as having come from a man. Why didn't the dogs alert to the obvious blood on the wall? Did they just miss that, or did no one tell Grime about what was found so he could cue the dogs?

All my own opinion. I could be wrong.

It quite often isn't 100%.

In fact, most often.

The way the scientists phrase it is "the chance that it is an unknown person is 930,000 to one", even with the good DNA.

They can use DNA more often to exclude POI's, than to definitively say "it was him".

This is rarely if ever said in a court of law - "we have a 100% DNA match".

What they do have is forensic evidence that indicates McCann DNA at the cadaver sites, rather than say, yours or mine.

This is not 100% but the world is rarely 100%.

It is yet another indicator against an intruder. :cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Oh, that is too dramatical. It doesn't have a to be a rag, a bit of toilet paper would do.. then he puts it in his pocket..isn't this not feasible?

I don't see why he need touch anything actually.

No need for wiping if you open the door with your cuff, pick up a child, steal silently out from whence you came without touching one single hard surface.

So why the open window?

 

[haden]

It is one of the pieces that doesn't fit with an abductor scenario.

It does fit with staging.

:cow:

I mean, are you beginning with an idea that an abductor should have left his fingerprints in the apartment and if yes then why?

Look for example at case of Joanna Yeates in the UK..her killer, Tabak, was in her apartment, he even opened the oven and took her pizza out, switched the oven off etc etc.. not sure if he as well took the offered drink. And yet, his fingerprints were not left in her flat.. and Tabak was not prepared, he was an opportunist.. yet he managed to get rid of all signs of him being there.

And he squeezed it all in a very short slot of time, in between his girlfriend going for a dinner, and coming back.

This is just one of the cases that came to mind, I am sure there are many cases of criminals removing their presence signs from the crime scenes.

 

[haden]

I don't see why he need touch anything actually.

No need for wiping if you open the door with your cuff, pick up a child, steal silently out from whence you came without touching one single hard surface.

So why the open window?

I agree. But do we know this person was of a logical mind?
Maybe he/she was crazy 'talking' to imaginative friends through the window.
Maybe as a possible escape.
Maybe he/she was given something through the window.
Maybe he/she passed something through the window to someone?
Maybe he used the window to drop his/her bag?
Maybe he/she was afraid someone would come either through the patio or though the main doors just as he/she was picking up Madeleine?

 

[Inana]

I agree. But do we know this person was of a logical mind?
Maybe he/she was crazy 'talking' to imaginative friends through the window.
Maybe as a possible escape.
Maybe he/she was given something through the window.
Maybe he/she passed something through the window to someone?
Maybe he used the window to drop his/her bag?
Maybe he/she was afraid someone would come either through the patio or though the main doors just as he/she was picking up Madeleine?

Maybe he/she panicked when he came out of the closet after almost getting caught by Oldfield and opened it thinking escape, then calmed down a tad, and just left out the front door.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I agree. But do we know this person was of a logical mind?

This was "the perfect crime". Crazies of unsound mind usually are incapable of pulling off such a feat as taking a child in the middle of a busy resort and disappearing off the face of the earth. :cow: Don't forget there were huge rewards offered, which could have been expected to draw something out of the woodwork if it was a crazy local. We didn't even get a suspect. :moo:

Maybe he/she was crazy 'talking' to imaginative friends through the window. Then he would've likely have been heard or seen.
Maybe as a possible escape. He already had two unlocked doors.
Maybe he/she was given something through the window. By whom? There are two of them now?Maybe he/she passed something through the window to someone? It is almost impossible to pass a sleeping M through that window and nothing else was missing
Maybe he used the window to drop his/her bag? Drop it outside the window, then use the door to go pick it up? Unlikely...what is the point?
Maybe he/she was afraid someone would come either through the patio or though the main doors just as he/she was picking up Madeleine? He/she clearly had nerves of steel and only succeeded due to being unseen/unheard. Would such a person waste time and cause noise by opening a window and its shutter?

Seriously the "intruder" theory makes absolutely no sense no matter which way I look at it.

 

[haden]

This was "the perfect crime".

Said who?

Crazies of unsound mind usually are incapable of pulling off such a feat as taking a child in the middle of a busy resort and disappearing off the face of the earth. :cow:

I disagree. IMO there must be a psychological disorder to make a person do such a crime if he acted alone.

Don't forget there were huge rewards offered, which could have been expected to draw something out of the woodwork if it was a crazy local. We didn't even get a suspect. :moo:

What if he/she sold her and has no proof or idea where she is gone? Killed her? The reward doesn't make a sense in these two cases.

Maybe he/she was crazy 'talking' to imaginative friends through the window. Then he would've likely have been heard or seen.
Maybe as a possible escape. He already had two unlocked doors.

Not necessarily. And re unlocked doors, if he is in the room and someone is standing at the kids doors, how can he/she escape? Run brushing the parents or friends?

Maybe he/she was given something through the window. By whom? There are two of them now?Maybe he/she passed something through the window to someone? It is almost impossible to pass a sleeping M through that window and nothing else was missing

We don't know. We don't know who this is and what is his/her ability.

Maybe he used the window to drop his/her bag? Drop it outside the window, then use the door to go pick it up? Unlikely...what is the point?

Cannot carry sleeping Madeleine and bag together while escaping

Maybe he/she was afraid someone would come either through the patio or though the main doors just as he/she was picking up Madeleine? He/she clearly had nerves of steel and only succeeded due to being unseen/unheard. Would such a person waste time and cause noise by opening a window and its shutter?

Why not? If the parents or friends come to the childrens doors and if there is 2+ of them then the abductor doesn't stand a chance running in between them to escape. The only option is jumping thought the window.

Seriously the "intruder" theory makes absolutely no sense no matter which way I look at it.

I respect your opinion but two police forces at the moment working on this case do not share your opinion.

 

[haden]

Maybe he/she panicked when he came out of the closet after almost getting caught by Oldfield and opened it thinking escape, then calmed down a tad, and just left out the front door.

In Oldfield statement he said the strongly believed the shutter was open during his 9.25 visit. All due to the amount of light in the room.

But he did not believe the window was open at that time.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Said who?



I disagree. IMO there must be a psychological disorder to make a person do such a crime if he acted alone.


What if he/she sold her and has no proof or idea where she is gone? Killed her? The reward doesn't make a sense in these two cases.


Not necessarily. And re unlocked doors, if he is in the room and someone is standing at the kids doors, how can he/she escape? Run brushing the parents or friends?


We don't know. We don't know who this is and what is his/her ability.



Cannot carry sleeping Madeleine and bag together while escaping



Why not? If the parents or friends come to the childrens doors and if there is 2+ of them then the abductor doesn't stand a chance running in between them to escape. The only option is jumping thought the window.



I respect your opinion but two police forces at the moment working on this case do not share your opinion.

How does one know what opinion they share, until an arrest or official conclusion is made via the courts?