Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect #2

[PingTheRouter]

i struggle so much with this case and i think its kinda sad because it takes away from the actual meaning which is finding a little girl who is missing

BUT i have several issues on both sides of the cases from both perspectives and i understand each side very well spent years researching and reading about it

i saw the articles like everyone here has about the guy in Germany

but even with the possibility it could be him... why so many unanswered questions and hiding from investigators from the parents side then if indeed all along it was a deranged pedophile and burglar

i guess the next thing is to try track down those cars and hopefully there is something left if it is indeed him and they can find some sort of trace

 

[Mrs Marple]

Gerry McCann played tennis with Tannerman on day Madeleine went missing | Daily Mail Online

The father of Madeleine McCann played tennis with a man wrongly suspected of abducting her on the day she went missing.

Gerry McCann was seen with Dr Julian Totman on May 3, 2007 by witness Jane Tanner, one of the so-called 'Tapas Seven' dining with Kate and Gerry McCann in Praia da Luz.

Confirmation Tannerman id'd and yes hr did play tennis with Gerry

 

[Mrs Marple]

In the pictures available on the web the window's not that high ...maybe 3ft?

Ok so definition of high is varied...it's on to steps as well.

I believe Kate has said several times thr window was open. Thr wind blew the door shut and that what made her look in the room.

I think we can assume they didn't leave thr window open, therefore as we now believe there was an intruder and possibly an accomplice, this is relevant. Thr suspect scaled walls so a slight drop wouldn't have been an issue. He could have gone in through the window, as l believe sometimes these shutters can be opened from the outside, and left by the front door , which was out of sight of the bar area.

 

[MsBetsy]

I thought that drawing was from the Tanner sighting? The one that ended up being a dad and his kid. Wasn’t the Smith sighting the one where he has the kid on his shoulder/chest?

Yes, it was from the drawing of the man described by Tanner, but I thought that was what the OP was asking about. I guess I didn't look back far enough.

 

[Satchie]

But I can't think of any other reason it was left open like that. I highly doubt the perp did that.

RSBM

This is what I don't understand. Why not? Why is it easier to create a narrative about the mother doing it, than create a narrative about the perp doing it?

I've been to countries where even the smallest ground floor windows have bars on them. Burglars enter homes through small windows, heck they've even used pet doors. We've all probably watched numerous TV shows where people enter or exit through small spaces. If you are thin and agile, it's not a problem, unlike middle-age detectives who are chunky and spend all their time sitting in chairs...

ETA MOO

 

[J.M. Bee]

i saw the articles like everyone here has about the guy in Germany

but even with the possibility it could be him... why so many unanswered questions and hiding from investigators from the parents side then if indeed all along it was a deranged pedophile and burglar

i guess the next thing is to try track down those cars and hopefully there is something left if it is indeed him and they can find some sort of trace

Because it wasn't this German guy, in my opinion. I think this is just another red herring from the McCann public relations team.

As for a car with traces of evidence, we already have that. Recall that cadaver dogs picked up the scent of a human cadaver in the boot of the car that Gerry rented 3-4 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

Where Gerry hid Madeleine in the time in between remains a key question in this case, but let's remember that the scent dogs also indicated/hit in the closet in her bedroom and behind the sofa in the living room.

I am expressing only my own opinions about this case here, of course, and others are free to have other opinions.

 

[Kikixxxx]

i struggle so much with this case and i think its kinda sad because it takes away from the actual meaning which is finding a little girl who is missing

BUT i have several issues on both sides of the cases from both perspectives and i understand each side very well spent years researching and reading about it

i saw the articles like everyone here has about the guy in Germany

but even with the possibility it could be him... why so many unanswered questions and hiding from investigators from the parents side then if indeed all along it was a deranged pedophile and burglar

i guess the next thing is to try track down those cars and hopefully there is something left if it is indeed him and they can find some sort of trace

They have seized both of the cars already - we don’t know if or what evidence was found inside either vehicle, I’m guessing nothing concrete or they’d or charged him by now.

 

[dotr]

Some nice scenery.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, I believe there were streetlights on, but would have to check on that!

I just read that there were no "security" lights. I'm not sure exactly what that means. I was searching for pictures of the layout of the apartment and ended up reading some articles.

It was stated that the location of the apartment was the perfect spot for a burglar or kidnapper because of the nearby roads, surrounding trees and because the entrance was secluded.

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

RSBM

This is what I don't understand. Why not? Why is it easier to create a narrative about the mother doing it, than create a narrative about the perp doing it?

I've been to countries where even the smallest ground floor windows have bars on them. Burglars enter homes through small windows, heck they've even used pet doors. We've all probably watched numerous TV shows where people enter or exit through small spaces. If you are thin and agile, it's not a problem, unlike middle-age detectives who are chunky and spend all their time sitting in chairs...

Again the problem is there is no evidence of forced entry in terms of getting the shutter open and forcing the window.

The parents say the shutters were down, so that pretty much rules out the window as the entry point.

But anyway, Gerry says the patio door was unlocked, so it seems far more logical that any burglar came that way. It is of course easy for them to open the window from the inside. So maybe they did do that.

02c

 

[Lusitana]

RSBM

This is what I don't understand. Why not? Why is it easier to create a narrative about the mother doing it, than create a narrative about the perp doing it?

I've been to countries where even the smallest ground floor windows have bars on them. Burglars enter homes through small windows, heck they've even used pet doors. We've all probably watched numerous TV shows where people enter or exit through small spaces. If you are thin and agile, it's not a problem, unlike middle-age detectives who are chunky and spend all their time sitting in chairs...

So, what's the narrative here? That the abducter entered the apatment through the window? That the abducter left the apartment through the window? It doesn't make sense. The blinds were down, forcing them up from the outside would be super loud, the person doing it would have to manage holding the blinds, climbing through the window that had to already be open, release the blinds, grab the child, and then what? Leave through the door? Or, enter the home through the door, grab the child, force the blinds up while holding the child, climb out of the window while holding the child, release the binds while holding the child and exit the apartment area? Doesn't make sense. It would be way too much work and too loud. If I'm not mistaken (because fact and fiction in this case are getting harder and harder to distinguish), forensics proved that the blinds and the window had not been open from the outside. It appears that, when LE arrived the window was closed and the whole "the window was open" story was told to them, the pictures show a closed window, blinds mostly shut. I can't see why Kate or someone else would make that up if Madeleine was, in fact abducted. But many things said and done by the McCann's don't fit with the "my child was kidnapped" narrative so, this would just be one more weird thing to add to the list. Who knows.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't want to keep thrashing at this, but I'm working on a couple of basic assumptions:

1. There is no reason for a mother to stage an open window after her child has been abducted.

2. If there is an open window, that is a fact that has to be explained. Especially because it is literally the only clue in the crime scene. A detective doesn't just dismiss it, and say, well the abductor could have used a door. If the abductor used a door, then the window wouldn't be open!

ETA if I had to swear whether or not I'd locked a door a few hours earlier, I'd be in big trouble.

Re point 2, the problem is, if the window was open, then everyone would see that when coming to the front door. This is IMO why Gerry changed his story.

I agree this can't be reconciled, but it is really a problem that arises due to the parents evolving version.

 

[Victoria Chambers]

Regarding Tanner seeing the man carrying a sleeping child, was it confirmed it was a genuine tourist. Did any of the police or investigators get this man to come forward to eliminate him from their enquires.
Surely the man would if he had nothing to hide?
This case is opening more cans of worms. I don’t know that a German boy vanished from Praia da luz in 1996, 11 years before Madeleine went missing. He is being linked to this too.
Also, a German girl went missing in Germany in 2015. He is also a suspect for this.
Finally, it was only recently that he was convicted of the rape of a woman, 18 months before Madeleines disappearance.
So it took them a while to get him for that crime, about 14 years.

In 2007, 2 separate statements were given to LE regarding a man carrying a little girl. The 'TannerMan' was seen walking by the Complex by Jane Tanner at 9:15pm. Four years later, he came forward to say that this sighting was "probably" him, since he had picked up his daughter from the creche and walked by the complex before reaching his vehicle. The 2nd statement was given by the Smith family from Ireland, who claim that a man carrying a young girl, walked by them, further down from the Complex and was headed in the direction of the beach. Their statement put the time at going on 10pm. This family were just a 2 minute walk from the Complex at the time but their sighting took place 45mins after 'Tannerman' walked by. The Tannerman has said, this 2nd sighting was not him, since he had gotten in his vehicle and did not go toward the beach. Both statements describe the child as wearing what looked like pink pyjamas. And what we do know, is 1 child wearing pink pyjamas, went home safely with her father. And another child wearing pink pyjamas vanished without a trace. The timing of the Smith's sighting, coincides with the time that Kate McCann discovered Madeleine was missing from her bed! I have always thought that this must be 1 and the same man and perhaps the Smith family sighting was off by a few minutes and maybe a few yards but they each stand by their original statements! X

 

[PingTheRouter]

They have seized both of the cars already - we don’t know if or what evidence was found inside either vehicle, I’m guessing nothing concrete or they’d or charged him by now.

oh they have then.. hmm its been a long time they could have been cleaned many times since that day i guess

the article i read here in the aussie news just listed the cars and asked for people to look out for them or if they had seen them, i just assumed they wanted the cars

but if they already have them it kinda eliminates part of the next step and i think you're right if there was something there they would have moved forward already

As for a car with traces of evidence, we already have that. Recall that cadaver dogs picked up the scent of a human cadaver in the boot of the car that Gerry rented 3-4 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

dont wan't to go down that rabbit hole but agree 100% its one of the sticking points i have as well

 

[mrjitty]

Okay, but the window was open. Why was it open?

The ongoing problem with the witness statements is we have no idea when it was opened.

On the night in question, Gerry said he unlocked the front door to gain entry. As there was no other sign of forced entry, this seems odd as anyone coming via the front door had to immediately notice that the window was open.

Only in his second statement did he change this to be access via the unlocked patio door.

Given the unreliability of all of this, we have no idea of when that window was actually opened OR if the patio door was unlocked. Why should i believe Gerry's second version over the first?

Personally I trust none of that testimony.

 

[otto]

Again the problem is there is no evidence of forced entry in terms of getting the shutter open and forcing the window.

The parents say the shutters were down, so that pretty much rules out the window as the entry point.

But anyway, Gerry says the patio door was unlocked, so it seems far more logical that any burglar came that way. It is of course easy for them to open the window from the inside. So maybe they did do that.

02c

It doesn't really matter, does it? The child disappeared while the parents were outside, nearby, visiting. They shared the task of checking on the children.

One child vanished. A German burglar and sex offender is now identified as a suspect. How he got in doesn't matter too much since we know that there was at least one unlocked entrance.

I'm more curious about the location of the body. There was a fireplace at his rental. Did he burn her body? Did he throw her off a cliff into the ocean? Is there any possibility that the body will be located?

 

[DanCJ]

My head is absolutely battered when I consider everything that has transpired. I feel LE have gone in hard here, something must be coming. A resolution.

 

[Lusitana]

It doesn't really matter, does it? The child disappeared while the parents were outside, nearby, visiting. They shared the task of checking on the children.

One child vanished. A German burglar and sex offender is now identified as a suspect. How he got in doesn't matter too much since we know that there was at least one unlocked entrance.

I'm more curious about the location of the body. There was a fireplace at his rental. Did he burn her body? Did he throw her off a cliff into the ocean? Is there any possibility that the body will be located?

Cliff for sure.

 

[otto]

Interesting about the two vehicles : Jaguar and van. If he transferred ownership of the car the day after the abduction, I agree with above points that he wanted to give the illusion that the Jaguar normally associated with him belonged to someone in Germany at the time of the disappearance. I'm guessing he then hid the car.

How long after the murder did he tow the car behind his van to Germany?

That suggests to me that he abducted her in the Jaguar, probably assaulted her there too, but may have gotten rid of the body using the van. He was definitely worried about DNA in his car.

Does anyone know whether CCTV was gathered from the area at the time? I realize there were lots of issues with the investigation. Is absence of CCTV footage one of them?

 

[mrjitty]

It doesn't really matter, does it? The child disappeared while the parents were outside, nearby, visiting. They shared the task of checking on the children.

One child vanished. A German burglar and sex offender is now identified as a suspect. How he got in doesn't matter too much since we know that there was at least one unlocked entrance.

It comes from the thought experiment I outlined upthread.

If German guy did it, via the balcony door, how do we explain the Tapa's timeline and Tanner sighting?

My point is that "evidence" was the biggest impediment to finding the truth and sent the investigation down the Murat rabbit hole.

Had they not hothoused their version in a group, PJ could have got to a more likely timeline sooner - instead it took the Met until the crime watch show to untangle all that, many years later

Remember also, the smith sighting came much later in the PJ investigation