Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #20

[Lilly b]

These hand written notes were found in the garden of apartment 4a. It was written on Police paper but no officer ever accepted responsibility for it. It seems nobody knows where it came from and there doesn't seem to be any follow-notes about it X

These a different to the one I was talking about, any more info on it?

 

[mrjitty]

Summary

A few months ago German police announce they have convincing evidence that CB abducted and killed Madeline

Over 20,000 posts on websleuths speculating how and why he did it

Now German police say they will be closing the file because of lack of clues.

German cops want to visit Portugal in 'final roll of dice' in Madeleine case

Which shows the danger of making these kinds of announcements before you have a reasonable prospect of convicting the suspect.

 

[C.greek]

Which shows the danger of making these kinds of announcements before you have a reasonable prospect of convicting the suspect.

How else would they possibly gather more information? They needed people to come forward

 

[mrjitty]

How else would they possibly gather more information? They needed people to come forward

I think it is possible to appeal for information without saying "CB did the murder but we can't prove it"

 

[enjy15]

Maybe not indeed. He says he "does not recognise" CB but the question is would he recognise the person again anyway?

I mean, he was 80% sure it was GM previously, and that was mostly based on how GM was carrying one of the twins out of an aeroplane. So that in itself says he cannot really be sure of the physical characteristics of the man he saw for that fleeting second on the 3rd. He would have surely seen GM on the news loads of times before that video of GM coming down the plane steps, and yet only then does he decide he thinks that was the guy he saw!?

I'm not yet convinced the man they saw that night was the person who took MM, but I also don't have much faith in MS to be able to accurately identify the man he saw either.

In general, witness statements aren’t great as memory is so unreliable.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I’ve been having a look at the lake around Baragem de Bravura on Google Maps to try and find the location of the unknown photos of VW WF. The location is obviously somewhere where CB went, to park up, stay, smoke weed or whatever. I am thinking it would be out of the way, perhaps away from buildings and would have off-street parking. Obviously the small fence and reeds are the only real clues.

It’s interesting that the lake is man-made and close to the shore line, there are several spots where there are ruins of old buildings. It seems likely that there would be something of interest where the location is, maybe a view or access to a beach area etc.

I came across a location that had a lay-by where several cars could park. There is a fence there and what looks like a 40” shipping container. In the Google Maps image there was a couple of cars parked next to the container. I only viewed it for a moment before my phone rang and I lost the location. If anyone is looking and you find this location, could you please post the coordinates?

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I think it is possible to appeal for information without saying "CB did the murder but we can't prove it"

I agree. I'm thinking they will charge him with some crimes (perhaps possessing illegal images, etc) no matter what new evidence they do or don't get.
But why already proclaim his guilt for murder in their appeals for information? I can't understand this unless they plan to charge him no matter what but don't want to admit this yet.
My speculation only.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

Can someone from Germany remind us what the standard for guilt is? In the U.S. you have to convince a jury "beyond reasonable doubt." In Germany you have to convince the judges ________?

 

[SuperdadV8]

Can someone from Germany remind us what the standard for guilt is? In the U.S. you have to convince a jury "beyond reasonable doubt." In Germany you have to convince the judges ________?

Yes!

 

[Kraktoa]

What a waste and of time this was.

Many threads ago I was castigates for saying that the Germans were basically bulls hitting and they had no evidence. German efficiency was being portrayed here as sacrosanct. Absolutely useless.

 

[tedtink]

What a waste and of time this was.

Many threads ago I was castigates for saying that the Germans were basically bulls hitting and they had no evidence. German efficiency was being portrayed here as sacrosanct. Absolutely useless.

Waste of time? Really?
Even if CB is not the perp don't you think that LE wouldn't have to investigate and find evidence against the person who did actually commit this crime?
Many people, certainly in the UK, would really like to know if their children are close to paedophiles - Sarah's Law- for instance. So at least folk across EU now know what CB is capable of and are aware of his previous crimes.
Yes, German LE have gone out on a limb, but I suspect they had good reason too!

 

[Sharkbite]

I just made a precautionary tipp off to the BKA. Maybe it can help.

The google imagery with the white van is from 17th June 2018

 

[Chiatos]

Well that was a long read, think I picked up on samples with letter L, being found in apartment, belonging to male, and several of them, that didn't match anyone tested, it's not that far down. Did anyone else notice that?
Slightly off subject but not, did the mc's refuse to provide medical history for MM, not that it matters, but that's why I mentioned yesterday it could be something that CB new, but no one else would if you get me, regard something about her body?

Back to samples "L", what has been investigated and what have been the results? I'll divide my summary in multiple posts and present in chronological order:

First PJ request to INML Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal concerning samples “L”
Date: 08 May 2007
7 sealed envelopes with 8(!) samples (so two samples in one envelope?) identified as “L”.

“L”= 8 collected samples/traces= 1 spot on bedspread, 1 hair at the entrance to bedroom, 2 hairs in the entrance hall, 4 hairs on the floor near bed next to window

Gathered reference samples for comparison:
Swabs from T’s (including parents) / PJ officers / OC personnel

P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

 

[Chiatos]

First INML report concerning samples “L”
Date: 09 July 2007

Results found by INML:
- Profile identified by letter "L" (8 samples), present in the spot on the bedspread of the bed next to the window and in seven hairs, meaning that all these samples came from the same person or from someone having the same maternal bloodline, did not match any of the reference samples
- The spot on the bedspread underwent Acid Phosphate testing to determine semen and the result was weakly positive
P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

 

[Chiatos]

Second PJ request to INML Instituto Nacional de Medicina Legal concerning samples “L”
Date: 04 July 2007

Further testing of the stain sample “L” to determine whether it’s saliva using Phadebas test
(Note: this second request was done 5 days prior to release of First INML report in which was stated that the sample tested weakly positive for semen.)
P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

 

[Chiatos]

Reply by INML to second PJ request
Date: 22 August 2007 or 31 March 2008(?) (not very clear to me)

Results:
With respect to autosomic STRs the male genetic profile identified from the spot on the cloth fragment (bedspread of the bed next to window in the children's bedroom- Env 5) did not match any profile from the reference samples

Phadebas Forensic test, for detection of saliva on the fragment of cloth corresponding to vestigio n'. 5 collected from the counterpane of the bed next to the window of the children's bedroom: Positive. The date of this result is not clear
P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

 

[Chiatos]

Examination report by John Lowe (UK police)
Date: 22 May 2008

Result: In accordance with available records, the database comprised samples from 286 volunteers, four of which were rejected.

The voluntary samples (282 samples) were also compared with 'crime stain 1', a DNA profile obtained by Portuguese scientists using their DNA profile system. The profile was recovered from suspected semen on a blanket in the apartment 5 -> no match for 281 samples.

The DNA profiles obtained from the 'crime stain 1' and 286A/2007/CRL9A & B coincide with Charlie Gordon (bar code 51156964).

However, John Lowe also states that:
“various matches were obtained with the results of 286A/2007/CRL9A&B; the majority of them were eliminated based on additional information obtained from the result; however, one remains (namely, bar code 80004801). It has matched with a sample of a spot recovered from a crime and cannot, at this time, be associated with a specific individual. Nevertheless, as that sample was processed with the old SGM system I consider the match to be of negligible significance.
All matches obtained from other samples were eliminated.
P.J. POLICE FILES: JOHN ROBERT LOWE F.S.S REPORT

There seems to be some discrepancy here about the matches and bar codes regarding sample "L", specifically the stain on the bed spread.
The match with bar code 80004801 seems to be related to a known crime?
Don't forget that the Portuguese investigation showed all 8 samples "L" to belong to one person or persons with the same maternal bloodline.

 

[Chiatos]

Final report by PJ
Date: 30 June 2008
P.J. POLICE FILES: PJ FINAL REPORT
The stain is considered to be child Charlie Gordon’s saliva

 

[Ekliptika]

I agree. I'm thinking they will charge him with some crimes (perhaps possessing illegal images, etc) no matter what new evidence they do or don't get.
But why already proclaim his guilt for murder in their appeals for information? I can't understand this unless they plan to charge him no matter what but don't want to admit this yet.
My speculation only.

Thank you for expressing my thoughts! I do not get this part either. Where I live I don’t Think this would be acceptable at all, usually you cannot mention a suspects name unless this person is convicted guilty in a court of law. But maybe German law is different in this area?
BKA must have some very convincing evidence of the crime and who did it, and if that is the case, why is this eveidence not enough to charge him? This does not make sense to me.
When I listen to Hr Wolthers in the podcast They’ve taken her, it sounds to me as if the only missing piece is evidence placing CB in or near appartment 5a at the time of the crime.
Hr Wolthers sat they have evidence that BC murdered her.
Hr Wolthers does not mention abduction at all, in my opinion this could mean that they have no evidence that it was actually CB who abducted her from 5a - so technically this could have been someone else.
When asked “Is the concrete evidence that Madeleine is dead or is the concrete evidence that CB is responsible for the murder of MM”, Hr Wolthers replies: “Both. It is combined. So it is the same”.
I am still struggling with what this evidence might be.
Pictures/video?
A conversation in a chatroom where CB admits to the murder ( but not the abduction? Maybe this is why BKA believes he had a helper? Could they have some indications that CB was not the actual abductor, but MM was handed over to him at a later point?)
If what they have is a conversation from a chat room that BC did the crime and how, I do understand that they cannot charge him on this background, however, I do not understand why this is enough evidence for BKA to mention CB’s name publicaly?
If they also have a picture of a disguised perp with MM dead, I still do not understand that they say BC’s name.
Maybe this is allowed according to German law?
Sorry if this has already been discussed.

 

[axelcruze]

Waste of time? Really?
Even if CB is not the perp don't you think that LE wouldn't have to investigate and find evidence against the person who did actually commit this crime?
Many people, certainly in the UK, would really like to know if their children are close to paedophiles - Sarah's Law- for instance. So at least folk across EU now know what CB is capable of and are aware of his previous crimes.
Yes, German LE have gone out on a limb, but I suspect they had good reason too!

There is so much data available on this case that we've almost sat back and accepted all of it, and ad armchair detectives do, they try and put all of that date into meaningful format. The problem is, data is raw and can result in many hypothesis. I think of you asked someone who's never heard this case to read through the hypothesis on here and from real people on the case, it would become clear that the details and witness accounts are vague and have changed over time, which makes the case weaker. The best solution would have been to offer the 12million quid to the perpetrator to step forward, in CBs case he wanted to be milionaire.... he could be when he comes of of jail tic. It seems the most data placed lots of people of interest in PDL on that night and lots had access to OC. If it was one person , it would be quick in and out imo. We have kidded ourselves into imagining CB in this room hopping through a tiny window , but it could have been someone else. Tractor man was placed in the area on the night for example, some people lied in their statement to give alibi. It would be interesting to see the list of peoples whose dna had been recorded in the room on that night. If CB has no dna at scene and FF places him away from PDL oc at that time, then I can see why the case would collapse if we're going only on CB pub confession to a trafficker.