Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[Midwestmom2019]

Snipped for focus.

Without being conspiratorial you can certainly imagine that CB is perfect for the Met who never wanted Operation Grange in the first place. That was foisted on them via the political game playing of the Murdoch press.

So they get the tip off, pass it to the germans, and now they are in a great place to finally close Grange down. It's all with the Germans. Met can't do anything further.

But why would the Germans go along with this? Difficult to imagine the Germans would want to wade into the most notorious case ever, without something pretty strong. Especially for a "missing persons". Unless of course, they hope to clear some of their own cold cases?

Maybe they want to clear their own cases, but I’m more apt to think of two other reasons. First, Germans are known for engineering accomplishments. Precision to a fault. Who better to put all the details together into one smoothly running machine? The legal process machine?
And then of course, all this Brexit EU, politics surrounding that situation. Maybe this is a show of solidarity despite differences. We want a divorce because the finances don’t work, but we’re still a family. Children come first.
For whatever reason, this man needs to be removed from society. For life.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[Newthoughts]

Depends on your definition of elaborate. The scenario being proposed involved an inside job, an employee sneaking in using master keys so that any DNA found wouldn't stand out, them then passing the child out of the window to another person and then into a waiting car. All with the puspose of making money. IMO, that's a pretty elaborate plan to snatch a kid. Espeically if it had to involve reconnaissance of the entire Tapas group as part of the planning.

On your last point, not sure why you think CB would find it easier to abduct her than abuse her in the apartment. What is easier about it? We know of other cases in the area where someone was doing exactly that, abusing them in their own bed, probably with the intention of not waking them.

I'm talking about the simple planning of seeing a child in a vulnerable location and watching her parents dining habits.

No need at all for the reconnaissance of the whole Tapas groups because it's the McCanns leaving after a check is all you need. Most checks were listening walk pasts.

Why would CB spend a limited amount of time in the appt on edge when he could grab a child in seconds and have unlimited time in relative safety. Just doesn't make sense

 

[Dlk79]

Why would CB spend a limited amount of time in the appt on edge when he could grab a child in seconds and have unlimited time in relative safety. Just doesn't make sense

Ah, the old "doesn't make sense" argument again. Whether it makes sense to you or not, these events do happen and it's difficult to get into the mind of people who do these things to understand their logic but it is likely driven by urges and kinks that transcend our version of common sense. We know of dozens of cases though, over a pretty small time period, in this small area of the algarve alone, where an intruder has broken into a holiday apartment and abused children in their beds. By your rationale, why didn't these intruders also just try and take the child with them instead? Why didn't CB try and snatch any of the children he was convicted against instead of just masturbating/exposing himself in front of them?

Conversely, how many abduction cases can you cite that have happened in the manner you are proposing? It's pretty rare and for the reason that if anything, if your motive is to steal a child, it makes less sense to do so in such a risky environment where there are guests roaming at random and where you know there is going to be a major fallout afterwards. Even if they could know where the parents are at all times, the movements of other holidaymakers is totally unpredictable and so is keeping MM from alerting once she's being moved. Abductions like this tend to happen to kids who are disadvantaged and less likely to be missed, or snatched in public where the abductor can pick the territory that is safe for them. JMO.

 

[Chiatos]

CB's bid for parole has been rejected:

Application for parole was denied

The reason given by the Braunschwieg Regional Court: “The convicted person has had multiple previous convictions and has failed on probation. In particular, a probation had to be revoked at the end because the convict committed several offenses during the probation period. In the past, the convicted person had committed crimes under the Narcotics Act, among other things, as well as multiple acts against the sexual self-determination of children, which is why serious crimes can be expected in the event of a relapse. Stabilizing factors that could prevent the convicted from committing further crimes were not found. "

Maddie McCann: Christian B. bleibt in Haft – Antrag auf Bewährung abgelehnt - derwesten.de

Seems like the nice little leisure trip to Braunschweig was probably not worth it...

Let's just say that CB has had an outing.

 

[SuperdadV8]

Let's just say that CB has had an outing.

If the reports of what has happened at Braunschweig court turn out as true, it should be an interesting view about CB's impulsive behavior, if things do not work out for him as he expected.

We have read about similar behavior from ex-girlfriends. I assume, these
sudden outbreaks of violence are just the tip of the iceberg and just a small insight into his deranged mind.

This, together with sadistic and special sexual urges, is a very dangerous melange IMO.

 

[C.greek]

The witness PF said she heard a child crying and calling daddy for an hour on the first. KM said MM asked why they hadn't come when they'd called on the morning of the third. I see no reason to disregard either of those things.

At nearly 4 my kids would get themselves to the loo - we'd leave the landing light on for that reason. But there was always someone there

Of course I am not disregarding PF! All I am saying is that my children would cry at that age if they didn't find us. That they would not just go to the toilet and settle themselves back to sleep, especially so in a foreign setting(ie not home).

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I'm talking about the simple planning of seeing a child in a vulnerable location and watching her parents dining habits.

No need at all for the reconnaissance of the whole Tapas groups because it's the McCanns leaving after a check is all you need. Most checks were listening walk pasts.

Why would CB spend a limited amount of time in the appt on edge when he could grab a child in seconds and have unlimited time in relative safety. Just doesn't make sense

Don’t you think there could be something about the risk of getting caught that excites CB? To me this is partly why he keeps getting caught. Risky crimes and blabbing about them ... 17 convictions and counting.

 

[Okapi]

Although she rarely needed to, my daughter could go to the bathroom by herself at night aged 3. I'm not saying there weren't a few disasters with toilet rolls, but she was comfortable, and we had left the hallway light on. She knew we were nearby and that is certainly why she was ok with that. I do think MBM knew her parents were out, and they had likely reassured her, and she knew they were popping back. It doesn't mean she actually was fully reassured, as the crying indicated. Most kids who get out of bed would wander in to see their parents. But not all. We just don't know enough about the circumstances to draw conclusions.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Although she rarely needed to, my daughter could go to the bathroom by herself at night aged 3. I'm not saying there weren't a few disasters with toilet rolls, but she was comfortable, and we had left the hallway light on. She knew we were nearby and that is certainly why she was ok with that. I do think MBM knew her parents were out, and they had likely reassured her, and she knew they were popping back. It doesn't mean she actually was fully reassured, as the crying indicated. Most kids who get out of bed would wander in to see their parents. But not all. We just don't know enough about the circumstances to draw conclusions.

We know that on the 1st it is likely she woke up and screamed for her parents for 75 minutes until they returned home. I agree that we cannot say for certain but given this is how she responded on one occasion, is it a fair assumption she would react the same way again?

Just out of interest, how much time has passed since your kids were 3 to 4? If my wife and I were to tell our three year old that when she woke up we wouldn’t be there, it’s a concept she just couldn’t understand. IMO this thinking is beyond a kid of this age.

 

[Okapi]

Ah, the old "doesn't make sense" argument again. Whether it makes sense to you or not, these events do happen and it's difficult to get into the mind of people who do these things to understand their logic but it is likely driven by urges and kinks that transcend our version of common sense. We know of dozens of cases though, over a pretty small time period, in this small area of the algarve alone, where an intruder has broken into a holiday apartment and abused children in their beds. By your rationale, why didn't these intruders also just try and take the child with them instead? Why didn't CB try and snatch any of the children he was convicted against instead of just masturbating/exposing himself in front of them?

Conversely, how many abduction cases can you cite that have happened in the manner you are proposing? It's pretty rare and for the reason that if anything, if your motive is to steal a child, it makes less sense to do so in such a risky environment where there are guests roaming at random and where you know there is going to be a major fallout afterwards. Even if they could know where the parents are at all times, the movements of other holidaymakers is totally unpredictable and so is keeping MM from alerting once she's being moved. Abductions like this tend to happen to kids who are disadvantaged and less likely to be missed, or snatched in public where the abductor can pick the territory that is safe for them. JMO.

Ah, the old "doesn't make sense" argument again. Whether it makes sense to you or not, these events do happen and it's difficult to get into the mind of people who do these things to understand their logic but it is likely driven by urges and kinks that transcend our version of common sense. We know of dozens of cases though, over a pretty small time period, in this small area of the algarve alone, where an intruder has broken into a holiday apartment and abused children in their beds. By your rationale, why didn't these intruders also just try and take the child with them instead? Why didn't CB try and snatch any of the children he was convicted against instead of just masturbating/exposing himself in front of them?

Conversely, how many abduction cases can you cite that have happened in the manner you are proposing? It's pretty rare and for the reason that if anything, if your motive is to steal a child, it makes less sense to do so in such a risky environment where there are guests roaming at random and where you know there is going to be a major fallout afterwards. Even if they could know where the parents are at all times, the movements of other holidaymakers is totally unpredictable and so is keeping MM from alerting once she's being moved. Abductions like this tend to happen to kids who are disadvantaged and less likely to be missed, or snatched in public where the abductor can pick the territory that is safe for them. JMO.

I agree, it's irrefutable that several children were abused in situ while their parents were in the apartment. So it's not an impossible concept that the same thing happened MBM.


Her abductor may have intended to abuse and leave, abuse and remove her, or just remove her.


But I'm quite persuaded by the theory that he may have lurked in the apartment during checks, and that she may have been harmed or perished accidentally or otherwise during this time period.


CB has a history of impulsive sexual offending, but he also has a history as an accomplished burglar. This situation likely involved both those personas.

 

[snowpea666]

I feel like I’m labouring my point on this so apologies. IMO, there is a big difference in MM leaving the room and finding her parents and leaving the room and not finding them.

GM made that statement as a way to justify the door being open to himself ... at that time, it was the only seemingly reasonable explanation.

Are there any other parents that want to chime in here?

I think it would be unlikely IMO a little one would wake go pee then get back into bed and fall asleep again, she prob went pee say 7ish before she went to bed, so I doubt she would wake so she prob didn't need, also she may have had night pull ups?

 

[Newthoughts]

Of course I am not disregarding PF! All I am saying is that my children would cry at that age if they didn't find us. That they would not just go to the toilet and settle themselves back to sleep, especially so in a foreign setting(ie not home).

Sorry wasn't suggesting you disregarded PF. If anything she backed up what you say. That on that night MM was distressed about something. KM even says she went into their room later when they were back.

My children would also have been distraught at that age if they couldn't find us. They could at that age get themselves to the toilet quite easily tho - without help. So it hinges on whether MM could get up and go to the toilet at night without checking her parents were there. On balance I recall mine occasionally wondering into our room in the middle of the night but I couldn't tell you about whether they'd ever made it to the loo and back late at night without checking cos we'd have been asleep.

 

[Newthoughts]

Ah, the old "doesn't make sense" argument again. Whether it makes sense to you or not, these events do happen and it's difficult to get into the mind of people who do these things to understand their logic but it is likely driven by urges and kinks that transcend our version of common sense. We know of dozens of cases though, over a pretty small time period, in this small area of the algarve alone, where an intruder has broken into a holiday apartment and abused children in their beds. By your rationale, why didn't these intruders also just try and take the child with them instead? Why didn't CB try and snatch any of the children he was convicted against instead of just masturbating/exposing himself in front of them?

Conversely, how many abduction cases can you cite that have happened in the manner you are proposing? It's pretty rare and for the reason that if anything, if your motive is to steal a child, it makes less sense to do so in such a risky environment where there are guests roaming at random and where you know there is going to be a major fallout afterwards. Even if they could know where the parents are at all times, the movements of other holidaymakers is totally unpredictable and so is keeping MM from alerting once she's being moved. Abductions like this tend to happen to kids who are disadvantaged and less likely to be missed, or snatched in public where the abductor can pick the territory that is safe for them. JMO.

Disadvantaged children, sadly, don't often need to be abducted. They are there with zero protection.

Paedophiles spend ages grooming children or parents or they grab childen. Most loved missing children have been grabbed by perverts - abused and killed.

It would have been difficult for CB to abduct children from a crowded park. Less so an empty appt.

Lastly look at the layout and size of appt 5a. How exactly does CB hide without making any noise when GM comes in thru the patio doors? He couldn't rely on GM going to the loo. It looks impossible

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Disadvantaged children, sadly, don't often need to be abducted. They are there with zero protection.

Paedophiles spend ages grooming children or parents or they grab childen. Most loved missing children have been grabbed by perverts - abused and killed.

It would have been difficult for CB to abduct children from a crowded park. Less so an empty appt.

Lastly look at the layout and size of appt 5a. How exactly does CB hide without making any noise when GM comes in thru the patio doors? He couldn't rely on GM going to the loo. It looks impossible

Do you accept that CB could have been in the apartment during MO’s check?

Do you accept that GM did not go into his bedroom during his check?

 

[Dlk79]

Lastly look at the layout and size of appt 5a. How exactly does CB hide without making any noise when GM comes in thru the patio doors? He couldn't rely on GM going to the loo. It looks impossible

Why does it look impossible? I mean, he may not necessarily have been there when GM did his check, but there are a few places he could have hidden if he was. Behind MM's door seems the most obvious. If he was in that room when he hears the patio door opening (behind the curtains) he'd have enought time to quickly get behind MM's door before GM has closed the patio door and moved past the curtains to see into the apartment. Plenty of time if he heard the gate at the bottom of the steps first. GM has even pondered whether an intruder might have been standing behind the door while he was there. And I'm not making out this was some kind of 6th sense, just that GM (who knows the apartment layout and his own mindset that night) believes it was plausible for someone to have hidden there when he came in.

He could also have hidden in GMs room, or in the kitchen which was also walled off with only a small hatch. Depends where he was in the apartment when GM entered. We're not talking about a scenario whereby CB could guarantee not being found, but if he was in there, his initial instinct would be to hide. Whether he then gets found is down to luck and IMO, CB got his fair share of it that night.

 

[Okapi]

We know that on the 1st it is likely she woke up and screamed for her parents for 75 minutes until they returned home. I agree that we cannot say for certain but given this is how she responded on one occasion, is it a fair assumption she would react the same way again?

Just out of interest, how much time has passed since your kids were 3 to 4? If my wife and I were to tell our three year old that when she woke up we wouldn’t be there, it’s a concept she just couldn’t understand. IMO this thinking is beyond a kid of this age.

Dennis, I'm with you that most children would need the reassurance of their parents nearby. They may need their parents to check in on them while they're falling asleep. I frequently babysat for friends and relatives in the past, and a child was often ornery before bedtime, just knowing their parents were out. But hands up, my own child wasn't fazed.‍ She toilet trained herself at 2, with no real input from me. She slept happily without any sleep training. She is just wired that way. She's an atrociously picky eater, so it's not all utopia. She's just turned 8 and I still have to cajole her to try new foods. I suppose my point is, we can't say that ALL almost 4 year olds wake overnight and need parental assistance/comfort. But it seems likely that MBM did.


Also, I agree with you that it is helpful to debate and examine all aspects of this case, in the hope of throwing new light onto it Anyway, I think I'll stop derailing it with so much talk of toilet training!

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Dennis, I'm with you that most children would need the reassurance of their parents nearby. They may need their parents to check in on them while they're falling asleep. I frequently babysat for friends and relatives in the past, and a child was often ornery before bedtime, just knowing their parents were out. But hands up, my own child wasn't fazed.‍ She toilet trained herself at 2, with no real input from me. She slept happily without any sleep training. She is just wired that way. She's an atrociously picky eater, so it's not all utopia. She's just turned 8 and I still have to cajole her to try new foods. I suppose my point is, we can't say that ALL almost 4 year olds wake overnight and need parental assistance/comfort. But it seems likely that MBM did.


Also, I agree with you that it is helpful to debate and examine all aspects of this case, in the hope of throwing new light onto it Anyway, I think I'll stop derailing it with so much talk of toilet training!

Nice and thoughtful response. I think we’ve exhausted the topic now. If anything the discussion has reinforced my views: If MM wakes up to the point where she moves the door and her parents are not there ... she is NOT going back to sleep. I am 90% that someone other than MM opened the door and therefore the intruder was in 5A before GM’s check,

 

[Dlk79]

It would have been difficult for CB to abduct children from a crowded park. Less so an empty appt

Just on that point, lots of children do get abducted in crowded settings. The scale and chaos of crowds can help a perp hide in plain sight and make them harder to spot/notice during their getaway. Take the James Bulger murder and Rene Hasee cases as examples. Taken from right under the parent's noses in a crowded place.

Anyway, just making the point that if CB had the desire to abduct a child, there would be easier ways to do so that carried far less risk. From what we know of CB's previous with children, he would seem quite contended to carry out some perverted act in situ, rather than than abduct.

 

[peanutJelly]

We know that on the 1st it is likely she woke up and screamed for her parents for 75 minutes until they returned home. I agree that we cannot say for certain but given this is how she responded on one occasion, is it a fair assumption she would react the same way again?

Just out of interest, how much time has passed since your kids were 3 to 4? If my wife and I were to tell our three year old that when she woke up we wouldn’t be there, it’s a concept she just couldn’t understand. IMO this thinking is beyond a kid of this age.

We also don’t know if abuse occurred on a previous evening

 

[redplanet]

Depends on your definition of elaborate. The scenario being proposed involved an inside job, an employee sneaking in using master keys so that any DNA found wouldn't stand out, them then passing the child out of the window to another person and then into a waiting car. All with the puspose of making money. IMO, that's a pretty elaborate plan to snatch a kid. Espeically if it had to involve reconnaissance of the entire Tapas group as part of the planning.

On your last point, not sure why you think CB would find it easier to abduct her than abuse her in the apartment. What is easier about it? We know of other cases in the area where someone was doing exactly that, abusing them in their own bed, probably with the intention of not waking them.

It is possible also the previous evening he may have intruded the room and performed that very activity while the 3 children slept, possibly leaving forensic evidence as observed at breakfast?