Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #24

[mrjitty]

Hi MrJ, just for clarity, the 'inner circle' being the Tapas 9 (ie. those elements of it that claimed to have made checks that evening)?

(I've snipped your post just for space-saving brevity)

Yes

I have always believed Redwood got an updated account from JT before he eliminated Tannerman on crimewatch - it would simply be obvious to get the witnesses reaction to his resolution.

So I am wondering if HCW now also seeks some further clarity. BKA don't have access to the UK witnesses, but the Met potentially do.

 

[Anxala]

Yes

I have always believed Redwood got an updated account from JT before he eliminated Tannerman on crimewatch - it would simply be obvious to get the witnesses reaction to his resolution.

So I am wondering if HCW now also seeks some further clarity. BKA don't have access to the UK witnesses, but the Met potentially do.

And (still very much in 'thought experiment' mode) the Met maybe not being responsive to this request? So then the question would be why wouldn't they be?

If a 'confession' claimed entry and abduction at a time that the Tapas timeline just doesn't support, then surely the focus should be on that, in objective and collaborative Met and BKA crime-solving terms?

Why, if the case, would the Met not want to revisit this?

 

[tedtink]

"You could see the shapes and you could see they were breathing, you'd stop and look and you could see they were sort of breathing, but in terms of sort of features and standing over and seeing where their heads were, and I couldn't say whether it was Sean or Amelie that was closest, it was just sort of, erm, sort of children in cots"

Snipped........

Totally agree with your whole post and would like to add something that I've pondered over in the past regarding MO's check and rogatory statement in regard to the above quoted section.

The travel cot on the left had side of bedroom 5a had 4 mesh sides.
The cot on the right hand side had 2 mesh sides, the top and bottom were not mesh.
IMO it wouldn't have been possible for MO to have even seen the twin in the cot on the right, let alone 'breathing', from where he claimed to have stood.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_14.jpg




enlarged pic of cot here.........

Portugal apartment Madeleine McCann spent final hours before vanishing

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Snipped........

Totally agree with your whole post and would like to add something that I've pondered over in the past regarding MO's check and rogatory statement in regard to the above quoted section.

The travel cot on the left had side of bedroom 5a had 4 mesh sides.
The cot on the right hand side had 2 mesh sides, the top and bottom were not mesh.
IMO it wouldn't have been possible for MO to have even seen the twin in the cot on the right, let alone 'breathing', from where he claimed to have stood.

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_14.jpg




enlarged pic of cot here.........

Portugal apartment Madeleine McCann spent final hours before vanishing

I agree that his rogatory is dodgy. It sounds to me like he is trying to be consistent with things he has previously said, almost as though he is asking for approval/conformation. I’m not sure any of the cot/twin related info the above statements actually happened.

What I do struggle with though is the thought that the entire check is a fabrication and something he has maintained for 14 years. If he told the McCanns that he had checked but really he didn’t, I can see him maintaining that in his 4 May statement. But, maintaining it in the 10 May statement and the rogatory in April 2008, when the gravity of the situation is known, this is hard ( not impossible) for me to accept.

Do we really think he made up the check and he - a doctor - has stuck with it all this time? It’s an important piece of the timeline.

 

[tedtink]

Do we really think he made up the check and he - a doctor - has stuck with it all this time? It’s an important piece of the timeline.

Unless the statements are tested in a Court of Law, we may never find out.
Personally, I think, from the off, the statements we're partly 'designed' to protect the group from child neglect, the irony is whilst trying to manage reputational damage and possible prosecution from Portuguese Authorities, the timeline didn't really leave much time for the abductor to act, hence FF saying s0 (90 seconds)


I'm interested to see how this all unfolds and how HCW plays this.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I agree that his rogatory is dodgy. It sounds to me like he is trying to be consistent with things he has previously said, almost as though he is asking for approval/conformation. I’m not sure any of the cot/twin related info the above statements actually happened.

What I do struggle with though is the thought that the entire check is a fabrication and something he has maintained for 14 years. If he told the McCanns that he had checked but really he didn’t, I can see him maintaining that in his 4 May statement. But, maintaining it in the 10 May statement and the rogatory in April 2008, when the gravity of the situation is known, this is hard ( not impossible) for me to accept.

Do we really think he made up the check and he - a doctor - has stuck with it all this time? It’s an important piece of the timeline.

His rogatory is his attempt to make sense of his previous statements, without being a witness to anything.

I tend to agree with @Dlk79

Btu I don't think he even listened, but under pressure early on, he pretended he did do the check so he wouldn't get in any trouble, and to make the group appear responsible.

The most critical thing is he is unwilling to be the last person to see her alive - because he never saw her. But he never expected he would be a critical witness, because he in fact never saw anything.

Had he listened at the window, he would have had to see that it was open. He is also unwilling to say whether the window was open.

But this shows the danger of cross contamination. None of this matters once JT takes Redwood's off ramp. His evidence is no longer under any pressure to confirm what JT and KM claimed. He isn't tempted to think how things "must have been".

This IMO, answers how a smallish act of self preservation in the first confusion might grow into something problematic. By the time he does his rogatory a year later, there is significant legal jeopardy for others if not himself.

Going back to the testimony at Lisbon, I believe PJ has always been right about this aspect of the case - but maybe not for the reasons they suspected.

 

[mrjitty]

And (still very much in 'thought experiment' mode) the Met maybe not being responsive to this request? So then the question would be why wouldn't they be?

If a 'confession' claimed entry and abduction at a time that the Tapas timeline just doesn't support, then surely the focus should be on that, in objective and collaborative Met and BKA crime-solving terms?

Why, if the case, would the Met not want to revisit this?

It's possible they have revisited it - but the witnesses may have nothing to add. Remember it was difficult enough to get the rogatories.

What I keep coming back to is Redwood placed the established timeline firmly in the dustbin, and HCW appears to have no interest in any of that stuff either.

Yet the official Find M website does not promote CB as it's top suspect - and of course there is an entire book devoted to the pre-Redwood canon.

Maybe this "fog of war" aspect explains why . The inner circle have to stay invested in their multiple statements until such time as HCW puts his cards on the table.

 

[Zuleika]

Did anyone ever find written evidence that the Tapas group had left a note for staff at the bar to say the children wouldn't be accompanying them?

 

[Anxala]

It's possible they have revisited it - but the witnesses may have nothing to add. Remember it was difficult enough to get the rogatories.

What I keep coming back to is Redwood placed the established timeline firmly in the dustbin, and HCW appears to have no interest in any of that stuff either.

We've talked about this before and I agree re ^above.

Yet the official Find M website does not promote CB as it's top suspect - and of course there is an entire book devoted to the pre-Redwood canon.

Maybe this "fog of war" aspect explains why . The inner circle have to stay invested in their multiple statements until such time as HCW puts his cards on the table.

^ That would certainly make sense of a number of unexplained and confusing aspects of this investigation.

 

[Anxala]

Did anyone ever find written evidence that the Tapas group had left a note for staff at the bar to say the children wouldn't be accompanying them?

I've never read that they left a note. If I recall correctly, it was the restaurant staff (following a briefing by the Tapas group when they first arrived) who made a note on their reservation that they'd be coming and going during the course of their evening meal to carry out checks on their 'home-alone' kids.

Basically, a note to inform the waiting staff and possibly the impact of that coming and going on the timing of their dinner service.

 

[tedtink]

Did anyone ever find written evidence that the Tapas group had left a note for staff at the bar to say the children wouldn't be accompanying them?

Nope, the alleged note didn't appear in the PJ Files.......


The note mentioned is not on the DVD although Tapas reservation lists are here: tapas bookings

KM's book - related paragraph

"It wasn’t until a year later, when I was combing through the Portuguese police files, that I discovered that the note requesting our block booking was written in a staff message book, which sat on a desk at the pool reception for most of the day. This book was by definition accessible to all staff and, albeit unintentionally, probably to guests and visitors, too. To my horror, I saw that, no doubt in all innocence and simply to explain why she was bending the rules a bit, the receptionist had added the reason for our request: we wanted to eat close to our apartments as we were leaving our young children alone there and checking on them intermittently."......

MISSING PAGES FROM THE FILES

 

[Zuleika]

Thankyou Anxala and tedtink

 

[Denis R Tandib]

His rogatory is his attempt to make sense of his previous statements, without being a witness to anything.

I tend to agree with @Dlk79

Btu I don't think he even listened, but under pressure early on, he pretended he did do the check so he wouldn't get in any trouble, and to make the group appear responsible.

The most critical thing is he is unwilling to be the last person to see her alive - because he never saw her. But he never expected he would be a critical witness, because he in fact never saw anything.

Had he listened at the window, he would have had to see that it was open. He is also unwilling to say whether the window was open.

But this shows the danger of cross contamination. None of this matters once JT takes Redwood's off ramp. His evidence is no longer under any pressure to confirm what JT and KM claimed. He isn't tempted to think how things "must have been".

This IMO, answers how a smallish act of self preservation in the first confusion might grow into something problematic. By the time he does his rogatory a year later, there is significant legal jeopardy for others if not himself.

Going back to the testimony at Lisbon, I believe PJ has always been right about this aspect of the case - but maybe not for the reasons they suspected.

You might well be right. I just find it hard to reconcile that the BS was maintained in the 10 May statements. By this point, a little girl with definitely missing would you would hope would be more important than the group being neglectful and irresponsible - I think most people would come clean at this point and tell the absolute truth, even if it didn’t supports the Tannerman theory.

Based on what you’re saying then, the window is from GM’s to KM’s checks, 50 mins or so.

If you’re right, I just don’t know how MO has stuck with it. I feel like he must have gone into 5A otherwise he has been in a very uncomfortable position emotionally for 14 years.

 

[Anxala]

You might well be right. I just find it hard to reconcile that the BS was maintained in the 10 May statements. By this point, a little girl with definitely missing would you would hope would be more important than the group being neglectful and irresponsible - I think most people would come clean at this point and tell the absolute truth, even if it didn’t supports the Tannerman theory.

Based on what you’re saying then, the window is from GM’s to KM’s checks, 50 mins or so.

If you’re right, I just don’t know how MO has stuck with it. I feel like he must have gone into 5A otherwise he has been in a very uncomfortable position emotionally for 14 years.

The problem is though, if Mr Jitty's conjecture is true, it would be very hard for MO to walk this back at a later date. His own reputation aside, it would reflect very badly on the Tapas 9 as a whole and give weight to the claim that they deliberately 'misled', at a crucial point, the direction of the PJ investigation.

That MO (as MrJ says above) goes to great pains to remove himself from 'last witness' status tells its own personal survival story imo.

Tangled web.

 

[Sagwa]

I think at this point. The case is closed and nothing like these explanations matter. They have proof she’s dead unfortunately. They only have to prove CB did it. I think HCW appealed to the public in order to encourage more victims to come forward because as he said “some might have been scared in the past of CB”. I also think CB is silent for now. Then I see him shopping to sell his story even if he would never come out of prison.

 

[Sagwa]

I think it’s even too late to charge those who helped CB like NF, her partner R. and others. I still think he did the abduction with help and for a ring, but CB is the only killer. Why waste time to prove an abduction when you have a gruesome act like that?

 

[Sagwa]

When in Lisbon, NF introduced CB as Roman in order to confuse witnesses. So, when asked by LE, the witness has another image or e-fit for CB and R. it works both way. NF was covering for both. and i’m pretty sure she’s reading us and laughing. They were all running scams etc. nasty people. By the way CB and NF were born days apart in the same village. I read she had a complicated life, etc. both are similar in coldness. Floral was their playground. Both only cared about $$. IMO she was the one he ran out to Portugal with. What do you guys think?

 

[Sagwa]

dbm

 

[Sagwa]

today:
Madeleine McCann's parents are STILL having to pay legal fees to fight Portuguese detective
Documents reveal the McCann's face ongoing expenses as part of libel action
Two years ago court files showed the couple had had to fork out £29,500 on legal fees for Amaral. Since then they have had to pay out a further £4,229 in legal costs making a total of nearly £34,000.

The European Court of Human Rights is due to rule on a further legal appeal shortly and if the McCanns lose the right to appeal they will have to pay still further court costs to Amaral.

Madeleine McCann's parents are STILL having to pay legal fees to fight Portuguese detective | Daily Mail Online

 

[Sagwa]

DP