Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect #30

[Chiatos]

Fibres would certainly be forensic evidence. It would be necessary to conduct scientific analysis to prove they originated from a particular garment by microscopic analysis

Next time -if there will be a next time- HCW should explain what he means by "forensic evidence" and "evidence". Why is he always emphasising on a difference between the two?

 

[misty48]

I am sceptical of Sandra F

How would fibres from pyjamas be proven to be MMs without DNA?

Was it the case they had a duplicate pair?

The PJ were provided with a pair of the same style pyjamas back in 2007. To find fibres which are identical to those used in manufacturing that particular product would be circumstantial, not forensic evidence imo. It is only the polyester in the pyjamas which would have shed naturally, unless they were damaged in some way.

 

[C.greek]

The PJ were provided with a pair of the same style pyjamas back in 2007. To find fibres which are identical to those used in manufacturing that particular product would be circumstantial, not forensic evidence imo. It is only the polyester in the pyjamas which would have shed naturally, unless they were damaged in some way.

that's a good point. m&s pjs for kids usually have no polyester though, I think? most are 95% cotton and 5% elastane. does elastane have polyester?

Missing person

Her family confirmed she was wearing white pyjama bottoms with a small floral design and a short-sleeved pink top with a picture of Winnie the Pooh character Eeyore. The pyjamas, bought in Marks and Spencer last year, had the Eeyore written in capital letters.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Mother in plea over missing girl

 

[misty48]

I am sceptical of Sandra F

How would fibres from pyjamas be proven to be MMs without DNA?

Was it the case they had a duplicate pair?

The PJ were provided with a pair of the same style pyjamas back in 2007. To find fibres which are identical to those used in manufacturing that particular product would be circumstantial, not forensic evidence imo. It is only the polyester in the pyjamas which would have shed naturally, unless they were damaged in some way.

that's a good point. m&s pjs for kids usually have no polyester though, I think? most are 95% cotton and 5% elastane. does elastane have polyester?

Missing person

Her family confirmed she was wearing white pyjama bottoms with a small floral design and a short-sleeved pink top with a picture of Winnie the Pooh character Eeyore. The pyjamas, bought in Marks and Spencer last year, had the Eeyore written in capital letters.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Mother in plea over missing girl

I know that M&S have moved towards more eco-friendly products like cotton these days but I don't know what the trend was in 2007. Someone on a blog somewhere must have located the product details. I'm pretty sure my children's pyjamas from there in the early 90's were poly-cotton.
Elastane is a microfibre which would also shed, though. I guess any DNA on the alleged fibres would have long since degraded.

 

[frank-cole]

Maybe a gap between the journalists knowlegde and the knowledge of HCW. The verdict based on non forensic evidence is known since 2020, HCW repeatedly confirmed, that there is no forensic evidence. But investigating fibers e.g. are typical forensics!

IF the van is still being investigated by portugese authorities and they may have found things like fibers e.g., it is possible that this info leaks out to portugese journalists more quickly, than a border crossing cooperation between police forces would work.

Hard to imagine, that a southern european laboraty picks up the phone and informes te BKA about a possible match.

Maybe SF just told him something, he didn't even know at the time, the interview took place?!

I think something significant has been found that all 3 LEA’s know about.
BKA - HCW confirmed new evidence
PJ declare CB an arguido due to ‘strong indications of a crime’
SY - the McCann’s acknowledge that ‘a truly horrific crime has been committed’, therefore IMO SY have told them something.

When CB was named arguido the McCann’s still talked about having slim hope that she may still be alive. But rhetoric has changed (latest statement) so IMO they’ve been told something in between the arguido announcement & now. So it’s very recent. Sandra F is adamant about something of MM’s being found in the van
It was reported that forensic test results were due back from the van in April. Pyjama fibres would be a ‘strong indication’ for the PJ & would convince the McCann’s that a truly horrific crime has occurred. BUT IMO pyjama fibres would be considered forensic evidence by a German prosecutor & he’s said the new evidence isn’t forensics. Perhaps if they’ve found a fibre but can’t get a DNA profile from it then maybe HCW wouldn’t consider it forensic (?)

Whatever the case I think that they’ve either found something new or the BKA have finally shared some of what they have with SY or PJ.

The McCann’s Winnie the Pooh quote & knowing MM was wearing Eeyore pyjamas brought a tear to my eye. Could also be an indication of the evidence found.

Thanks

 

[C.greek]

The PJ were provided with a pair of the same style pyjamas back in 2007. To find fibres which are identical to those used in manufacturing that particular product would be circumstantial, not forensic evidence imo. It is only the polyester in the pyjamas which would have shed naturally, unless they were damaged in some way.

I know that M&S have moved towards more eco-friendly products like cotton these days but I don't know what the trend was in 2007. Someone on a blog somewhere must have located the product details. I'm pretty sure my children's pyjamas from there in the early 90's were poly-cotton.
Elastane is a microfibre which would also shed, though. I guess any DNA on the alleged fibres would have long since degraded.

P.J. POLICE FILES: PORTUGUESE FORENSIC INSTITUTE TESTS

07 Processos Vol VII Page 1713
07_VOLUME_VI1a_Page_1713
To: Police Scientific Laboratory
Lisbon

5th June 2007

Subject: Sending of Pyjamas

The present inquiry investigates the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007. I am herewith delivering to the Police Scientific Laboratory a pair of girl's pyjamas.
The Pyjamas are from Marks and Spencers, size 2 to 3 years -97 cm.
The pyjamas are composed of two pieces: camisole type without buttons and half sleeves, pink with designs, letters and tracing in white with (small) floral patterns, the right pyjama bottom leg has a design (smaller size) which is identical to that of the camisole.
The pyjamas being sent are 'equal' in make, model, size, colours and designs as well as presumably the texture, to those the little girl was wearing at the time of her disappearance. The article sent serves for eventual comparisons with fibres collected by the competent officers of the Police Scientific Lab, within the scope of the current investigation.


Analysis and results

II - A pyjama camisole, pink in colour with motifs stamped and sewn on to the front (the latter of material, buttons and messages) (see photographs 1 and 2). Three labels can be seen, one of them has the following references, amongst others: 'Top 100% COTTON EXCLUSIVE OF TRIMMINGS'.

III - White coloured pyjama bottoms with stamped designs in pink shades (different tones), green and yellow and with a trim at the bottom of each leg (see photo 3 and 4). Three labels can be observed, one of them with the following reference, amongst others 'Bottom 100% COTTON EXCLUSIVE OF TRIMMINGS'

Unfortunately both are 100% cotton.

and later full analysis:

Pyjama camisole:
The front was made up of white base thread and external pink thread.
- Prime material of the white thread: cotton and synthetic fibre (very pigmented).
- Prime material of the pink thread: cotton (the colouring was not visible by microscope).
The back of the top consisted of pink coloured thread
- Prime material of the pink thread: cotton (the colouring was not visible by microscope).
The Pyjama bottoms:
The material of the pyjama bottoms consisted of white coloured thread.
- Prime material of the thread: cotton
Observations using a stereoscopical magnifier and an optical microscope
With the objective of comparing eventual textile fibres collected from the wall with the fibres from the pyjamas, a search was made of the textile fibres (synthetic white fibres and white and pink cotton fibres) from the samples collected for examination. The search was carried out using a stereoscopical magnifier and an optical microscope, pink and white cotton fibres having been selected as well as white synthetic fibres for subsequent comparison.

Comparison Microscope
The fibres selected were compared to the fibres from the pyjamas using an optical comparison microscope. The following results were obtained:
- No synthetic fibres were detected that were compatible with the pyjama fibres.
- In relation to the cotton fibres, although numerous white cotton fibres were detected in all the samples, in none of them were vestiges detected that enabled discriminatory comparative analyses (such as for example, vestiges of stamping).

- Numerous white cotton fibres were found. However, this result should not be considered to be significant, given that according to studies of distribution and persistence of textile fibres it should always be possible to find fibres of different types and colours on any surface, white cotton fibres being very common and without discriminatory parameters.
- In addition, the interval of time that has passed between the events being investigated and the collection of samples (out in the open air) means the existence of fibres from the date of the events is of very low probability.
Note: The material remains archived at the SPL.

Lisbon, 23rd November 2007

***
The above tells me that there is no way any white fibres from the pjs would be evidence, as they could not be discriminated. only vestiges of the stamping areas of the pjs could be significant.... unless they found the whole set...

 

[Anxala]

I don't really understand why HCW is even doing this interview with SF - what is the purpose?

Me neither. No purpose that I can see since he doesn't appear to have said anything of any substance, and certainly nothing to suggest that the BKA is really any further forward than it was the last time HCW spoke publicly.

All it seems to have done is promote even more unhelpful speculation.

HCW seems to love the tabloids though and Sandra is pure tabloid so...

 

[frank-cole]

Me neither. No purpose that I can see since he doesn't appear to have said anything of any useful substance, and certainly nothing to suggest that the BKA is really any further forward than it was the last time HCW spoke publicly. All it seems to have done is promote even more unhelpful speculation.

HCW seems to love the tabloids though and Sandra is pure tabloid so...

If this fibre evidence is true,SF shouldn’t know about it. The only real purpose it can serve, is CB learning they may have found traces in his van

 

[Davieson]

Me neither. No purpose that I can see since he doesn't appear to have said anything of any substance, and certainly nothing to suggest that the BKA is really any further forward than it was the last time HCW spoke publicly.

All it seems to have done is promote even more unhelpful speculation.

HCW seems to love the tabloids though and Sandra is pure tabloid so...

More unhelpful speculation. Yes I like that

 

[Anxala]

If this fibre evidence is true,SF shouldn’t know about it. The only real purpose it can serve, is CB learning they may have found traces in his van

^ Let alone using it as a 'gotcha' on a tabloid news show. I just don't get why HCW continues to engage with media that leave him so open to charges of unprofessionalism, to say the least.

All I can say is that I find both HCW and the methodology of this ongoing investigation both baffling and troubling. And no amount of defensive 'buts' on his behalf will change that.

 

[C.greek]

If this fibre evidence is true,SF shouldn’t know about it. The only real purpose it can serve, is CB learning they may have found traces in his van

This is what sources are for. Of course prominent investigative journalists would get insider info...

 

[LeopardLeotard]

Hi all , been off for a bit, just catching up, saw the info re the fibres, have they said where in the van these were found?, that pic still irks me if any one remembers it of the vw by the beach, i know it's unlikely but an odd pic of the van in an odd location, it really looks like there's a child in the back, well that's what I thought anyway , now I'm not sure I need to go find it and have another look

-thread #8
I can post it I don't know if that's allowed im a bit rusty as to rules

 

[Davieson]

If this fibre evidence is true,SF shouldn’t know about it. The only real purpose it can serve, is CB learning they may have found traces in his van

He'll certainly know whether it has any validity or not

 

[tedtink]

Hi all , been off for a bit, just catching up, saw the info re the fibres, have they said where in the van these were found?, that pic still irks me if any one remembers it of the vw by the beach, i know it's unlikely but an odd pic of the van in an odd location, it really looks like there's a child in the back, well that's what I thought anyway , now I'm not sure I need to go find it and have another look

-thread #8
I can post it I don't know if that's allowed im a bit rusty as to rules

Welcome back leopard!
Hope you're good

 

[SuperdadV8]

Hi all , been off for a bit, just catching up, saw the info re the fibres, have they said where in the van these were found?, that pic still irks me if any one remembers it of the vw by the beach, i know it's unlikely but an odd pic of the van in an odd location, it really looks like there's a child in the back, well that's what I thought anyway , now I'm not sure I need to go find it and have another look

-thread #8
I can post it I don't know if that's allowed im a bit rusty as to rules

I know what you mean. Most interesting fact is, that the BKA appeal has a slighty darker version of the pic. But it seems strange, right!



https://www.bka.de/DE/IhreSicherhei...hverhalt.html?nn=26874#fahndungsgalerie132470

 

[C.greek]

^ Let alone using it as a 'gotcha' on a tabloid news show. I just don't get why HCW continues to engage with media that leave him so open to charges of unprofessionalism, to say the least.

All I can say is that I find both HCW and the methodology of this ongoing investigation both baffling and troubling. And no amount of defensive 'buts' on his behalf will change that.

As long as CB is charged eventually with something (and it appears he does have the files for the assault of the 10 year old on the beach ) I am absolutely fine with his methodology. I would let his lawyer file a complaint to the european court of human rights if he thinks this needs to be done. But up to now, I have seen nothing of this sorts, so I am fine to have a convicted child abuser and rapist in isolation in jail and keep him there for the foreseeable as it is thought (officially) he is a danger to society.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I know what you mean. Most interesting fact is, that the BKA appeal has a slighty darker version of the pic. But it seems strange, right!

View attachment 342486

https://www.bka.de/DE/IhreSicherhei...hverhalt.html?nn=26874#fahndungsgalerie132470

Slightly adjusted version of it.



There is room to sit or stand.



große Liegefläche ;-)

 

[TizerisT]

I dunno. I see a reflection of a building, with perhaps a tree in front of it

 

[Anxala]

As long as CB is charged eventually with something (and it appears he does have the files for the assault of the 10 year old on the beach ) I am absolutely fine with his methodology. I would let his lawyer file a complaint to the european court of human rights if he thinks this needs to be done. But up to now, I have seen nothing of this sorts, so I am fine to have a convicted child abuser and rapist in isolation in jail and keep him there for the foreseeable as it is thought (officially) he is a danger to society.

It's not about CB though, it's about the way in which this investigation is being conducted. HCW - the chief prosecutor - invited the court of tabloid opinion to find CB guilty of MM's murder back in June 2020 without, to this day, a single piece of evidence that gives value or weight to that charge. That for me is hugely problematic since it's such a breach of good practice in civilised law.

CB being a rotten human being is no excuse for deciding that civilised law shouldn't apply in his case.

 

[SuperdadV8]

I dunno. I see a reflection of a building, with perhaps a tree in front of it

Of course. Either you see the shape of a small girl, or you don't. I do.

But even if you see it as well, nobody knows at what time the pic has been taken, by whom and all other circumstances of the photography. Pareidolia can be a big issue.