Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect #31

[Dave55]

BOTH amaral and the Mcs have rights...amaral under article 10 and the Mcs under article 8.....which covers defamation. It was up to the SC to balance those rights. Although portugal have their own libel law they are governed by the ECHR.
The ECHR has said that this case is governed by existing case law and there are many reports from similar cases on their website.
its not a free for all and the ECHR seem to take a reasonable wiew on whats permitted re free speech. They consider the veracity of the claims and the balance..Amaral fails miserably on both.

The Portuguese court in the first instance refused to let Gerry challenge the dog alert evidence saying they werent there to decide what evidence was true....major error.


Having loked at many previous cases of 10 vs 8 I predict te McCs will be succesful...because amarals claims are not a balanced view on the files and they are based on lies not facts. In the files harrison makes it clear that no inferences could be drawn from the alerts..yet amaral saw them as proof.

It will be interesting to see how deeply teh ECHR look at and comment on the evidence in this case.

 

[Davieson]

@enquirer6, is there any basis for those claims, from reading it seems as if you have some personal beef against Grime .
What it has to do with the thread title of the German prisoner no doubt some one will enlighten us.

I've often wondered that myself and am surprised that such posts haven't been removed as off topic.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

@enquirer6, is there any basis for those claims, from reading it seems as if you have some personal beef against Grime .
What it has to do with the thread title of the German prisoner no doubt some one will enlighten us.

I agree you and @Anxala that @enquirer6 has some obsession with Grime and the dogs.

IMO, the dogs were brought in to provide more clues on already identified suspects. They didn’t do this nor did the rule anyone out.

I am not supportive of GA but I do genuinely think he believes the McCanns are responsible for what happened to MM. I think he came to this conclusion mainly because statistically the McCanns are far more likely to be responsible than anyone else. Additionally, the changing stories of the McCanns and the T7 plus the way they all reacted after the disappearance is suspicious.

This is why GA doubts them and it’s a reasonable position.

It doesn’t matter if Grine is corrupt, insane or not of this world, the suspicions are there and they are valid with or without him.

So far as LE from three countries believing CB is the culprit, I don’t agree. HCW thinks he is the only suspect. The PJ named him as an aguido for technical (15 years to prosecute was almost up) reasons and I don’t recall seeing anything from the UK that gives their view one way or another.

 

[Dave55]

I agree you and @Anxala that @enquirer6 has some obsession with Grime and the dogs.

IMO, the dogs were brought in to provide more clues on already identified suspects. They didn’t do this nor did the rule anyone out.

I am not supportive of GA but I do genuinely think he believes the McCanns are responsible for what happened to MM. I think he came to this conclusion mainly because statistically the McCanns are far more likely to be responsible than anyone else. Additionally, the changing stories of the McCanns and the T7 plus the way they all reacted after the disappearance is suspicious.

This is why GA doubts them and it’s a reasonable position.

It doesn’t matter if Grine is corrupt, insane or not of this world, the suspicions are there and they are valid with or without him.

So far as LE from three countries believing CB is the culprit, I don’t agree. HCW thinks he is the only suspect. The PJ named him as an aguido for technical (15 years to prosecute was almost up) reasons and I don’t recall seeing anything from the UK that gives their view one way or another.

he might geniunley believe it...the McCanns are not statistically more likely than anyone else...plus that is not evidence. The statements were poorly recorded which could explain the inconsistencies.
Amaral made it clear he relied heavily on the dog evidence,,,,Almeida stated the main evidence against the McCanns were the dogs. Amaral was told that the alerts were not evidential..he repeated lies of the dogs having 100% record in 200 cases..

his claims are not reasonable and do not represent the evidence in the files

 

[enquirer6]

I agree you and @Anxala that @enquirer6 has some obsession with Grime and the dogs.

IMO, the dogs were brought in to provide more clues on already identified suspects. They didn’t do this nor did the rule anyone out.

I am not supportive of GA but I do genuinely think he believes the McCanns are responsible for what happened to MM. I think he came to this conclusion mainly because statistically the McCanns are far more likely to be responsible than anyone else. Additionally, the changing stories of the McCanns and the T7 plus the way they all reacted after the disappearance is suspicious.

This is why GA doubts them and it’s a reasonable position.

It doesn’t matter if Grine is corrupt, insane or not of this world, the suspicions are there and they are valid with or without him.

So far as LE from three countries believing CB is the culprit, I don’t agree. HCW thinks he is the only suspect. The PJ named him as an aguido for technical (15 years to prosecute was almost up) reasons and I don’t recall seeing anything from the UK that gives their view one way or another.

If you look at the schedule of searches Mark Harrison first drew up, you will find he made no reference to:

The McCanns' rented villa, unsurprisingly, as Madeleine never lived there.

The McCanns' rented hire car, unsurprisingly, as they hired it 3 weeks after Madeleine vanished

Clothing, unsurprisingly, as Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog, trained to inspect clothing; also because no clothing was seized until 3 months after the crime; further,because uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. And finally because minute traces of Madeleine's blood on clothing would not have been incriminating.

Then Harrison took orders from Encarnacidio to include everything except (even then) clothing.

The 'inspection' of clothing seems to have come immediately after the debacle with cuddle-cat.

But Grime signalled his intent to 'get in' an 'inspection' of clothing with the lie in his profile that Eddie could be used for such purposes.

 

[enquirer6]

If you look at the schedule of searches Mark Harrison first drew up, you will find he made no reference to:

The McCanns' rented villa, unsurprisingly, as Madeleine never lived there.

The McCanns' rented hire car, unsurprisingly, as they hired it 3 weeks after Madeleine vanished

Clothing, unsurprisingly, as Grime never had, at least a cadaver dog, trained to inspect clothing; also because no clothing was seized until 3 months after the crime; further,because uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are inadmissible as evidence in English courts. And finally because minute traces of Madeleine's blood on clothing would not have been incriminating.

Then Harrison took orders from Encarnacidio to include everything except (even then) clothing.

The 'inspection' of clothing seems to have come immediately after the debacle with cuddle-cat.

But Grime signalled his intent to 'get in' an 'inspection' of clothing with the lie in his profile that Eddie could be used for such purposes.

This is the schedule of searches Harrison first drew up, with none of the features specified above:

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Page 2228 :

Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach.

ETA: Note, also, that Harrison was instructed to investigate that Madeleine had been MURDERED.

 

[enquirer6]

From the following retrospective summary of dog-searches, written by Mark Harrison, note the following:

Harrison acknowledged involvement of Grime and his dogs ONLY in those searches he (Harrison) FIRST recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murats' villa; vehicles of Robert Murat's ONLY. Harrison never wanted the Renault Scenic, hired 3 weeks AFTER Madeleine vanished, sniffed by the dogs.

Note, further, that Harrison waited until AFTER witnessing the searches to provide PJ personnel with written instructions on how to conduct dog-inspections in vehicles and buildings.



The timeline of these searches was as follows:

On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.

On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.

On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.

Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.

On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.

On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.

On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.

On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.

Summary

The aim of the search activity was to re-search known and relevant locations in the immediate vicinity of the place Madeleine McCann was last seen using solely a search scenario that she was deceased and her body had been concealed by a third party. No human remains were located during the searches undertaken.

During the searches two dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Edited to add, the online corruption of Harrison's report that has him describing Grime's dogs as "police" dogs edited out.

 

[mrjitty]

The Portuguese court in the first instance refused to let Gerry challenge the dog alert evidence saying they werent there to decide what evidence was true....major error.

RSBM

I kind of agree with this ruling.

The point is not whether the dogs were correct or not. I think it just shows the evidential difficulties for the Plaintiffs compared to a libel proceeding in the UK.

The ECHR proceeding feels like a better venue, because they can focus on the procedural fairness. It was after all the State of Portugal, PJ, and the Prosecutors' office which released the most damaging material

I wouldn't be surprised if ECHR dishes out a slap on the hand.

 

[Davieson]

RSBM

I kind of agree with this ruling.

The point is not whether the dogs were correct or not. I think it just shows the evidential difficulties for the Plaintiffs compared to a libel proceeding in the UK.

The ECHR proceeding feels like a better venue, because they can focus on the procedural fairness. It was after all the State of Portugal, PJ, and the Prosecutors' office which released the most damaging material

I wouldn't be surprised if ECHR dishes out a slap on the hand.

Wasn't that what the Portuguese SC did - look at procedural fairness ?

 

[Dave55]

RSBM

I kind of agree with this ruling.

The point is not whether the dogs were correct or not. I think it just shows the evidential difficulties for the Plaintiffs compared to a libel proceeding in the UK.

The ECHR proceeding feels like a better venue, because they can focus on the procedural fairness. It was after all the State of Portugal, PJ, and the Prosecutors' office which released the most damaging material

I wouldn't be surprised if ECHR dishes out a slap on the hand.

The SC made.it clear that it was a balance between free speech and right to reputation.
The way the ECHR judges this is by the veracity of the claims. So was Amaral reasonable making his claims based on the dog alerts...the dogs he claimed had never been wrong...no he wasn't.

I can't see any other verdict than victory for the Mcs

 

[enquirer6]

RSBM

I kind of agree with this ruling.

The point is not whether the dogs were correct or not. I think it just shows the evidential difficulties for the Plaintiffs compared to a libel proceeding in the UK.

The ECHR proceeding feels like a better venue, because they can focus on the procedural fairness. It was after all the State of Portugal, PJ, and the Prosecutors' office which released the most damaging material

I wouldn't be surprised if ECHR dishes out a slap on the hand.

"Slap on the hand"

For accusing the McCanns of:

Killing Madeleine with an overdose of calpol

Hiding their dead daughter's body

Fabricating 'abduction'.

Launching a fraudulent fund in their dead daughter's name.

All that will elicit is a response of a 'slap on the hand' for Amaral?

The McCanns only ever wanted the money to fund their search for Madeleine.

If, indeed, it turns out that Brueckner murdered Madeleine, then I imagine the McCanns, even in their grief, will settle for full acknowledgement that their name has been maligned and traduced, in the most part, but not exclusively, by Amaral.

Meanwhile, the freelance dog-handler on whose work scurrilous accusations against the McCanns are principally, but not exclusively, based, will slope off, satisfied, with the 1,000 euros a day (with all other expenses on top) he fleeced, presumably, the Portuguese tax-payer of for his 'services'.

 

[Davieson]

"Slap on the hand"

For accusing the McCanns of:

Killing Madeleine with an overdose of calpol

Hiding their dead daughter's body

Fabricating 'abduction'.

Launching a fraudulent fund in their dead daughter's name.

All that will elicit is a response of a 'slap on the hand' for Amaral?

The McCanns only ever wanted the money to fund their search for Madeleine.

If, indeed, it turns out that Brueckner murdered Madeleine, then I imagine the McCanns, even in their grief, will settle for full acknowledgement that their name has been maligned and traduced, in the most part, but not exclusively, by Amaral.

Meanwhile, the freelance dog-handler on whose work scurrilous accusations against the McCanns are principally, but not exclusively, based, will slope off, satisfied, with the 1,000 euros a day (with all other expenses on top) he fleeced, presumably, the Portuguese tax-payer of for his 'services'.

Surely it would be a slap on the hand for the Portuguese Judiciary. Amaral doesn't come into it.

 

[enquirer6]

Surely it would be a slap on the hand for the Portuguese Judiciary. Amaral doesn't come into it.

It's iniquitous, but may be a way of the world, that principal architects of misery inflicted on others, so often simply escape sanction.

 

[mrjitty]

The SC made.it clear that it was a balance between free speech and right to reputation.
The way the ECHR judges this is by the veracity of the claims. So was Amaral reasonable making his claims based on the dog alerts...the dogs he claimed had never been wrong...no he wasn't.

I can't see any other verdict than victory for the Mcs

Agreed on the balance - this is what was reversed on appeal.

It will be interesting to see how they rule, especially in light of developments in Germany.

It would be a way to split the baby - the plaintiffs compensated, whilst the Supreme Court upheld freedom of expression (per its rationale) - and the Government of Portugal ends up carrying the can for any financial award.

 

[enquirer6]

Agreed on the balance - this is what was reversed on appeal.

It will be interesting to see how they rule, especially in light of developments in Germany.

It would be a way to split the baby - the plaintiffs compensated, whilst the Supreme Court upheld freedom of expression (per its rationale) - and the Government of Portugal ends up carrying the can for any financial award.

Where, in your opinion, should limits on free speech lie?

 

[mrjitty]

"Slap on the hand"

RSBM

GA is not the defendant in these proceedings - so yes - in my view it will be the government of Portugal which might end up being 'slapped" with compensation for all of this.

 

[mrjitty]

Where, in your opinion, should limits on free speech lie?

As I've said before, I am not in favour of people being accused of crimes outside of the official process of charging.

As far as private individuals go, I think the UK laws are too chilling on speech, especially news reporting. I find the US much too far in the other direction, where thanks to the malice requirement, we frequently see absurd allegations

I think the difficulty in this case is it was easier for the defendant to establish foundation for his opinion, based on the central position he held, and the fact that PJ had published lots of the content to the public already. Furthermore, they were actually named as suspects. So there was already huge public discussion on all these matters.

Especially the plaintiffs failed to prove his intent was to injure them. It's often the case that things turn on onus and what can be proven in Court, more than the individual justice of it.

 

[enquirer6]

I agree you and @Anxala that @enquirer6 has some obsession with Grime and the dogs.

IMO, the dogs were brought in to provide more clues on already identified suspects. They didn’t do this nor did the rule anyone out.

I am not supportive of GA but I do genuinely think he believes the McCanns are responsible for what happened to MM. I think he came to this conclusion mainly because statistically the McCanns are far more likely to be responsible than anyone else. Additionally, the changing stories of the McCanns and the T7 plus the way they all reacted after the disappearance is suspicious.

This is why GA doubts them and it’s a reasonable position.

It doesn’t matter if Grine is corrupt, insane or not of this world, the suspicions are there and they are valid with or without him.

So far as LE from three countries believing CB is the culprit, I don’t agree. HCW thinks he is the only suspect. The PJ named him as an aguido for technical (15 years to prosecute was almost up) reasons and I don’t recall seeing anything from the UK that gives their view one way or another.

 

[enquirer6]

As I've said before, I am not in favour of people being accused of crimes outside of the official process of charging.

As far as private individuals go, I think the UK laws are too chilling on speech, especially news reporting. I find the US much too far in the other direction, where thanks to the malice requirement, we frequently see absurd allegations

I think the difficulty in this case is it was easier for the defendant to establish foundation for his opinion, based on the central position he held, and the fact that PJ had published lots of the content to the public already. Furthermore, they were actually named as suspects. So there was already huge public discussion on all these matters.

Especially the plaintiffs failed to prove his intent was to injure them. It's often the case that things turn on onus and what can be proven in Court, more than the individual justice of it.

This was the take of the Portuguese prosecutors:

The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.

X X X

Add to that that PJ Inspector Joao Carlos concluded Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant at the time of Kate's alert.

Pretty much non of Amaral's accusations can be verified or sustained.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

he might geniunley believe it...the McCanns are not statistically more likely than anyone else...plus that is not evidence. The statements were poorly recorded which could explain the inconsistencies.
Amaral made it clear he relied heavily on the dog evidence,,,,Almeida stated the main evidence against the McCanns were the dogs. Amaral was told that the alerts were not evidential..he repeated lies of the dogs having 100% record in 200 cases..

his claims are not reasonable and do not represent the evidence in the files

From the below, 64.2% of child murders in high-income countries are committed by parents.

On 4 May 2007 GM stated that he entered the apartment via the front door. On 10 May 2007 this had changed to the patio doors. I don’t believe this was poorly recorded. In the circumstance, it’s a significant change and one that would draw suspicion. This is just one example.

I think rather than poor recording, the inconsistencies were an attempt, by the McCanns and T7, to cover themselves from neglect or similar allegations. Until the evidence on CB is public and providing it reveals far more than we already know, there are other people who should remain suspects.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318653218_Child_homicide_perpetrators_worldwide_a_systematic_review

ETA, another 12.6% are committed by acquaintances. Purely from probability perspective, there is at 77% chance that MM was killed by her parents or someone else in the file that knew her. While obviously this doesn’t mean they did it, it’s a tree well worth shaking by LE, especially if there are other things that arouse suspicion. The dogs didn’t strengthen the case against the McCanns BUT they certainly didn’t rule them out either.