Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #33

[Mex]

Doesn’t Portuguese law enable law enforcement to make people public suspects through the “Arguidi” process? Hard to understand how such conflicting laws could coexist in one country.

If he committed an offence, why hasn’t he been prosecuted for it?

As I understand it arguido status in Portugal is the equivalent of being a person of interest in Britain and as in Britain when charges have been laid it becomes sub judice. Which in effect precludes any further public discussion elsewhere because the case is under judicial consideration.

I think the Portuguese system is probably much the same. An illustration of which may be that MM’s parents became cannon fodder when they were constituted arguidos.

But there was no publicity when GA was constituted arguido on 4th May 2007 accused in a torture case involving the mother of an eight year old missing from a neighbouring village to Luz. Secrecy of justice was applied because he was charged with the offence and subsequently found guilty of perjury and a suspended sentence handed down as a result.

Is your point here that he shared information that was given to him? Why is he the issue and not the law enforcement who allowed the information to be leaked to him?

Whatever anyone may think of GA, he has been through the wringer with this case and has probably been ridiculed more than anyone else in the media. As we know, he has an opposing theory, so under the circumstances, it’s no wonder he will do what he can to discredit alternatives.

This is not “unheard of” “bizarre” or “… destructive determination to destroy the confidentiality of the case it is almost palpable”. IMO, it’s what I would expect him to do.

The clear fact that I’m arguing is that GA has a theory that he is certain is correct. Until someone is found guilty, his theory is as equally valid as anyone else’s.

I have no way of reading minds to enable answer to be made to your questions. You appear to have a high opinion of GA. I have no axe to grind regarding GA or what you claim are the “theories” he promotes. I make only factual observation regarding his actions using information available in the public domain much of which he puts there himself via authoring books and acting as a pundit in various international and home media outlets.

 

[Malleux]

I would not be surprised if he has more rapes

It's a double-edged sword with such a public campaign. While it increases the chances of other victims recognising CB (or his MO) they may simply not want to come forward and risk having themselves publicly exposed or associated with CB (or the MM case).

You have to admire Hazel's bravery, but when it comes to rape victims, I would say she is probably in the minority when it comes to speaking out like she has. The majority of rapes don't even get reported. JMO.

 

[Davieson]

Not sure, I get where @mrjitty is coming from with implied ,

I would view it like a chain of custody.
In order to kill her he would need to come in contact with her, so how did that happen?
Did he enter the apartment and take her, or find her wandering outside. or given to him by someone else?
They would need to prove which it was, otherwise the claim has no credibility.
IMO

 

[Consider Dudley]

I've not suggested anything, I've posted what Rowley said.

You stated that Rowley had not dismissed Amaral’s theory. I’m suggesting that he (and Operation Grange) most certainly have, by everything they have said and everything they have done since.

 

[Consider Dudley]

You don't know how they view it, or why they have chosen another theory to pursue.

I do know how they view it, they have dismissed it and are pursuing a stranger abduction.

 

[RichardKimble]

You stated that Rowley had not dismissed Amaral’s theory. I’m suggesting that he (and Operation Grange) most certainly have, by everything they have said and everything they have done since.

I quoted what Rowley said in 2017, he said it had been dealt with by the first investigation .

 

[RichardKimble]

I would view it like a chain of custody.
In order to kill her he would need to come in contact with her, so how did that happen?
Did he enter the apartment and take her, or find her wandering outside. or given to him by someone else?
They would need to prove which it was, otherwise the claim has no credibility.
IMO

Indeed, its the exit from 5a I would like to know.

 

[Davieson]

I quoted what Rowley said in 2017, he said it had been dealt with by the first investigation .

Do you think that implies that OG didn't look at it in detail ?

 

[Denis R Tandib]

He is a civilian. He has flouted Portuguese Secrecy of Justice laws the reasons for which I believe are twofold. The first is to protect the integrity of the investigation by ensuring that information does not become known to anyone who might be involved in the crime.
Secondly it is in place to protect the identity of anyone suspected of a crime particularly if no further action is taken against them.

As I understand it arguido status in Portugal is the equivalent of being a persons of interest in Britain and as in Britain when charges have been laid it becomes sub judice. Which in effect precludes any further public discussion elsewhere because the case is under judicial consideration.

I think the Portuguese system is probably much the same. An illustration of which may be that MM’s parents became cannon fodder when they were constituted arguidos.

This could take a long time if you avoid questions and respond to different points than the ones I made.

Once again, how can the top quote coexist with the second quote.

And, if GA has committed a crime in relation to to the first quote, why hasn’t he been prosecuted - it over three years since the story you shared earlier.

I have no way of reading minds to enable answer to be made to your questions. You appear to have a high opinion of GA. I have no axe to grind regarding GA or what you claim are the “theories” he promotes. I make only factual observation regarding his actions using information available in the public domain much of which he puts there himself via authoring books and acting as a pundit in various international and home media outlets.

I have the same sceptical opinion of GA as I do of HCW. Both have put forward theories neither have made a charge - that’s a fact.

 

[G-Unit]

I do know how they view it, they have dismissed it and are pursuing a stranger abduction.

We don't know why Operation Grange have doggedly investigated abduction of MM. It was, we know, part of their remit; to investigate the abduction as if it occured in the UK. Perhaps they have simply investigated what they were instructed to investigate.

 

[Mex]

Given that these rape videos don't seem to exist any more and the victims haven't been identified, how does one differentiate between rape and consensual rough sex ?

I have to admit to being puzzled by two of the alleged rapes and their unidentified victims (to us) but perhaps not to the investigators.

If memory serves me well having been told about finding the video tapes and their contents, it was German police sleuthing which resulted in the matching Portuguese police files about the DM rape being found. Which eventually resulted in her giving testimony for CB’s trial for the crime.

Not sure about this, but were the rapes of the two unidentified women found in the files at the same time? If so they must have got the names from the files. I don’t think they could have relied on being allowed to bring charges based on only the older woman’s Italian accent as a basis.
I think they are known to the court.

HB recognised her ordeal and will be able to make her own testimony when the time comes. Which I think will result in any defence of so called “consensual rough sex” raising a couple of judicial eyebrows.

 

[Mex]

Rejection of a particular theory by police forces doesn't necessarily made it invalid

It is invalidated by relevant evidence which supersedes the initial concept.

 

[mrjitty]

Do you not think the prosecution will need to demonstrate how MM came to be in CB's possession?
I would think that a crucial step.

Not necessarily.

In the most obvious example, had she been found buried at his ruined factory, it is not important to the elements of murder, how she was abducted. It is implicit that she must have been.

it is more important that the prosecution rule out other explanations.

 

[mrjitty]

I have to admit to being puzzled by two of the alleged rapes and their unidentified victims (to us) but perhaps not to the investigators.

If memory serves me well having been told about finding the video tapes and their contents, it was German police sleuthing which resulted in the matching Portuguese police files about the DM rape being found. Which eventually resulted in her giving testimony for CB’s trial for the crime.

Not sure about this, but were the rapes of the two unidentified women found in the files at the same time? If so they must have got the names from the files. I don’t think they could have relied on being allowed to bring charges based on only the older woman’s Italian accent as a basis.
I think they are known to the court.

HB recognised her ordeal and will be able to make her own testimony when the time comes. Which I think will result in any defence of so called “consensual rough sex” raising a couple of judicial eyebrows.

IIRC the charges state that the identity of those victims is unknown i.e. the prosecutors / court do not know who they are

 

[Consider Dudley]

I quoted what Rowley said in 2017, he said it had been dealt with by the first investigation .

And in saying so he dismissed Amaral’s theory.

 

[RichardKimble]

Do you think that implies that OG didn't look at it in detail ?

You never know, Rowley used a lot of words to effectively say nothing new.

Q: Andy Redwood, the first senior investigating officer, said in one interview his policy was to go right back to the beginning, accept nothing, but one thing you appear to have accepted is that this was an abduction. It’s in your first remit statement, it refers to ‘the abduction’, which rather suggests right from the start you had a closed mind to the possibility of parents’ involvement, an accident or Madeleine simply walking out of the apartment.

MR: Two points to that, firstly the involvement of the parents, that was dealt with at the time by the original investigation by the Portuguese. We had a look at all the material and we are happy that was all dealt with and there is no reason whatsoever to reopen that or start rumours that was a line of investigation. The McCanns are parents of a missing girl, we are trying to get to the bottom of. In terms of Andy using the word abduction, she was not old enough to set off and start her own life. However she left that apartment, she has been abducted. It is not a 20-year-old who has gone missing and who has made a decision to start a new life, this is a young girl who is missing and at the heart of this has been an abduction.

 

[Malleux]

Not sure about this, but were the rapes of the two unidentified women found in the files at the same time? If so they must have got the names from the files. I don’t think they could have relied on being allowed to bring charges based on only the older woman’s Italian accent as a basis.
I think they are known to the court.

I don't believe the identities are known. Else they would have been able to have given their exact ages in the indictment.

Just on the point of the middle aged "italian" woman, this doesn't form the basis of the latest charges. There were inconsistencies in the accounts of Manfred and Helge over her description and the location of the rape. In the latest charges, they have gone with the description that Helge gave of an older british woman in a holiday apartment. Presumably they see his account as more reliable, and he is the more key witness, since he viewed a lot more of the tapes and claims there were recordings of that same rape made from multiple angles. Whereas Manfred claims to have only seen part of it, very briefly, and from only one angle. His assertion the woman was italian was based on hearing one word which he interpreted to mean "help" in italian, nothing about an accent. Of course, he may have simply misheard what she said, whereas Helge having seen the rape twice from 2 angles claims the woman called CB obscenities in English and with a British accent.

 

[Consider Dudley]

We don't know why Operation Grange have doggedly investigated abduction of MM. It was, we know, part of their remit; to investigate the abduction as if it occured in the UK. Perhaps they have simply investigated what they were instructed to investigate.

Whatever the reason, it is quite clear that they have dismissed Amaral’s theory as irrelevant to the current investigation, same as the Germans (who presumably weren’t ordered to investigate Madeleine’s disappearance as an abduction).

 

[Davieson]

It is invalidated by relevant evidence which supersedes the initial concept.

I guess relevant evidence would be the thing. Is there any ?

 

[RichardKimble]

GA's theories are heavily reliant on misunderstanding of the forensic results and strong belief on indications from two dogs whose actions he misinterpreted. Despite the handler cautioning that indications had to be backed up by forensic evidence.

Now if Wolters were to say the dog alerts .......................