Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[RichardKimble]

At what point does the defence get to see the evidence ? in Germany.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I don’t know why you feel the need to be so strident about this point, you could make it about every alleged victim in every case awaiting trial. As far as the police are concerned there are five victims, and I don’t know why it should be a problem to anyone to say so.

I am arguing that we should allow the legal process to run its course before we decide if there are established crimes, victims and convicted criminals. I have often wondered why people - like you - would do argue otherwise.

I agree, they are all victims & should be treated that way. I think there’s a big difference between legally innocent & factually innocent.
German prosecutors only charge when the chances of a conviction outweigh the chances of acquittal & they only get involved in investigations when there’s evidence of an offence.
IMO they certainly wouldn’t have made these arrests if they didn’t have a strong chance of conviction. That’s why I think many of us may be missing a trick here, especially in regards to the 2 further rape charges. There’s very little open-source information regarding the 2 unidentified victims but that doesn’t mean there isn’t compelling evidence behind the scenes. IMO there must be other evidence because they charged CB. Only time will tell but it’s very hard to make sense of those 2 charges until all of the facts are established. The other 3 cases seem more straightforward. JMO

Are they really all victims? There has been no trial. There may be more evidence, there may not be. Right now, you only have the word of a man proven to assault women and smuggle people to base your opinion on - that’s not strong enough for me.

Is it not possible that the charges for unidentified victims are hopeful rather than well supported by compelling evidence? One thing I am certain about is that the BKA and HCW thought they would find more crimes during their six-year investigation of CB than they have. Is it possible these alleged crimes are a sign of an investigation in trouble?

All the opinion of some random on the internet who doesn’t like the thought of people be found guilty before they’ve been proven to be.

 

[Pixie Child]

There’s a 20 year limit on a sexual coercion charge so it may be that if he is convicted on the other charges, the video victims will be taken into account in sentencing.

The Prosecutor may hope CB will give up identities saying it was consensual. That alone would bolster HB-MS credibility.

 

[Okapi]

Well, we might have to go back to talking about soil

Let’s hope we get an update soon on the Arade searches.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

At what point does the defence get to see the evidence ? in Germany.

As I understand it, when the charges are made.

I am pretty sure that FF has seen the evidence for the five charged cases.

 

[Monic]

People are getting very mixed up on all this 2019 'video tape' evidence and it's turned into Chinese whispers

To my knowledge only FAZ has a detailed account of the trial evidence and it's been posted before. Here are my notes.

1. First witness contacted british police about rape video/CB in 2018. In the video he saw 'an older woman in a holiday apartment, speaking english' and the teenager in the farmhouse. This caused PJ to check cold cases and they found the 2005 rape including forensics which were a match for CB
2. The Court held that witness 1 did not see the American woman on video - he saw someone else, but it was so similar to the American rape it could not be made up.
3. Witness 2 (accomplice) did not come forward but was arrested later. Saw the teenager. Also saw a 45-50yr old "italian woman"
4. Court held both witnesses credible, and saw different rapes (3 total).
5. Held none of them was the American woman. Key reason was difference in weight, and american woman did not report swimming googles.
6. 2023. CB indicted for "holiday apartment woman" and "teenager" and HB. Identity of victims unknown.
7. "italian woman" rape was not indicted. Possibly because witness less credible or not enough evidence of rape in testimony. we don't know.
8. PJ already checked their cold cases back in 2018 so presumably did not find "holiday apartment woman" or "teenager".
9. Presumably public appeal did not locate the victims.

Seeing Braunschweig Court held that witness 1 could not have invented the rape he saw because it was so similar to what american woman reported, i assume HCW is now trying to prosecute that 'holiday apartment' rape and the 'teenager' based 100% on that logic.

MS said he knows who the girl at the pole is..

 

[Denis R Tandib]

There’s a 20 year limit on a sexual coercion charge so it may be that if he is convicted on the other charges, the video victims will be taken into account in sentencing.

Pixie, given that the range for these offences was 2000-2006, does that mean after 2026, CB cannot face trial for these crimes?

 

[RichardKimble]

As I understand it, when the charges are made.

I am pretty sure that FF has seen the evidence for the five charged cases.

Thanks, I'm just wondering if there is something within the charges that have brought a halt as well as the jurisdiction thing , it just can't be that, or would that (jurisdiction) cause an issue of say a miscarriage .

 

[Davieson]

Was the wooden beam where the girl was tied in CBs former house ever tested for dna? Although it may have been cleaned, it looks it has many grooves and slits.

As the victim is unknown, DNA may of no use, unless she or a close family member is on a DNA data base for some other reason.

 

[RichardKimble]

All the opinion of some random on the internet who doesn’t like the thought of people be found guilty before they’ve been proven to be.

Snipped: it could also be argued CB is not going to be charged, at least for the time being.

 

[Hygge]

Yes but it can tell you

As the victim is unknown, DNA may of no use, unless she or a close family member is on a DNA data base for some other reason.

yes but dna can tell you age and if female.

 

[RichardKimble]

Pixie, given that the range for these offences was 2000-2006, does that mean after 2026, CB cannot face trial for these crimes

If there's a 20 yr time limit then that narrows it down even more doesn't it.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Thanks, I'm just wondering if there is something within the charges that have brought a halt as well as the jurisdiction thing , it just can't be that, or would that (jurisdiction) cause an issue of say a miscarriage .

It has been nearly two months since the the court in Lower Saxony threw out these charges.

I thought at the time it had been instigated to allow a technical exit from the MM case. It seems like there are issues but the Arade search seemed to dismiss that.

On reflection, the media strategy and the outward assertions made by HCW now seem like brinkmanship. It’s as though they hoped CB would confess and he hasn’t.

 

[Hygge]

Yes but it can tell you

yes but dna can tell you age and if female.

If dna was found on the beam of a female teen also if unknown, it would be at least another indication the crime had happened? Together with fibres of rope

 

[Pixie Child]

Pixie, given that the range for these offences was 2000-2006, does that mean after 2026, CB cannot face trial for these crimes?

The time limit would run from the age of 18 for the minor so that would potentially add another 4 years.

With the Italian lady, she may have consented to everything up until he went too far with a whip. Would that even count as rape? If it’s a lesser charge, then the time limit could be below 20 years. They would certainly have to have a witness statement from her.

 

[Davieson]

The time limit would run from the age of 18 for the minor so that would potentially add another 4 years.

With the Italian lady, she may have consented to everything up until he went too far with a whip. Would that even count as rape? If it’s a lesser charge, then the time limit could be below 20 years. They would certainly have to have a witness statement from her.

As the age of consent in Portugal is 14, the same might be argued for the young girl.

 

[Consider Dudley]

I am arguing that we should allow the legal process to run its course before we decide if there are established crimes, victims and convicted criminals. I have often wondered why people - like you - would do argue otherwise.

Are they really all victims? There has been no trial. There may be more evidence, there may not be. Right now, you only have the word of a man proven to assault women and smuggle people to base your opinion on - that’s not strong enough for me.

Is it not possible that the charges for unidentified victims are hopeful rather than well supported by compelling evidence? One thing I am certain about is that the BKA and HCW thought they would find more crimes during their six-year investigation of CB than they have. Is it possible these alleged crimes are a sign of an investigation in trouble?

All the opinion of some random on the internet who doesn’t like the thought of people be found guilty before they’ve been proven to be.

So if I am understanding you correctly there are no crimes or victims of crime until a judge or jury agrees. Well I‘m sorry but I disagree most strenuously. Madeleine McCann is most obviously a victim of a crime yet we still don’t know exactly what happened to her or who was responsible. how could you possibly argue otherwise?

 

[Davieson]

If dna was found on the beam of a female teen also if unknown, it would be at least another indication the crime had happened? Together with fibres of rope

It wouldn't necessarily be evidence of a crime. Could be evidence of consensual rough sex.

 

[Consider Dudley]

It has been nearly two months since the the court in Lower Saxony threw out these charges.

I thought at the time it had been instigated to allow a technical exit from the MM case. It seems like there are issues but the Arade search seemed to dismiss that.

On reflection, the media strategy and the outward assertions made by HCW now seem like brinkmanship. It’s as though they hoped CB would confess and he hasn’t.

This is not a strategy I am aware of ever being used successfully in the past - is it one often deployed, claiming certainty that a suspect is guilty and them subsequently confessing before even being charged?

 

[Davieson]

So if I am understanding you correctly there are no crimes or victims of crime until a judge or jury agrees. Well I‘m sorry but I disagree most strenuously. Madeleine McCann is most obviously a victim of a crime yet we still don’t know exactly what happened to her or who was responsible. how could you possibly argue otherwise?

I would think it depends on circumstances.
For example, if a man is charged with rape and found not guilty, it could be argued that the rape did not take place, so no crime and no victim.