Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[Lyall0814]

Let's just keep the only quote of the article

Mr Wolters said: “The investigation into the Maddie case will take as long as is necessary. If necessary, beyond a possible release of the accused.”

Looks like the Mirror are getting a bit sceptical (jmo)

 

[Lyall0814]

Yes, those are his comments (in English). On reflection, the (now dismissed) comments in that Mirror article are inconsistent to the bold message HCW has had throughout, so I’m glad he was asked to clarify. From my perspective he’s been very clear all along - MM is dead & they have evidence that proves that. So tragic!

That's not what's translated as saying in that article. "I have only informed that there is not yet sufficient suspicion of a crime." is what my machine translates it as. And that's exactly what the Portuguese said in 2008.

(but that might not be what Wolters actually said. Translation is very tricky. Wars have been fought after incorrect translations I expect)

 

[Mex]

That's not what's translated as saying in that article. "I have only informed that there is not yet sufficient suspicion of a crime." is what my machine translates it as. And that's exactly what the Portuguese said in 2008.

(but that might not be what Wolters actually said. Translation is very tricky. Wars have been fought after incorrect translations I expect)

Please clarify.
Are you referring to " "However, we do not have forensic evidence of Maddie's death."
Or some other direct quote?
Thankyou.

 

[Lyall0814]

Please clarify.
Are you referring to " "However, we do not have forensic evidence of Maddie's death."
Or some other direct quote?
Thankyou.

There's more to the article than that but looks like it doesn't always show all of the article after you've clicked translate. There's five more paragraphs after the one with the line you've quoted if its showing the whole article. Last one contains the 'quote' I mentioned earlier.

But it means little on its own. Could be mistranslation (as could what the Mirror says he's just said).

 

[Okapi]

Let's just keep the only quote of the article

Mr Wolters said: “The investigation into the Maddie case will take as long as is necessary. If necessary, beyond a possible release of the accused.”

For those of us lucky enough to recognise the reference, I now have Mr Bull from Peppa Pig in my mind, asserting “It will take as long as it takes.” And I must agree lol

 

[Denis R Tandib]

There is a procedure to be gone through before charges can be laid concerning the validity and weight of the evidence. In both of these cases the charge of aggravated rape has stood the test of being presented for trial.

Nota Bene, FF has not objected to either case being on the charge sheet having to rely on the procedural ploy of jurisdiction.

Tells me something that he has ignored the passage of these two alleged rapes through the legal system of which he is part.
We don't know what is going on but for sure the legal participants do, which reinforces my opinion that these are two victims whose cases will be heard. Which of us knows what complaints have been made, or if they are in police files already like so many more(eg HB). HB sought publicity for her ordeal the other two may retain anonymity because they asked for it.
We don't know but the judiciary do

You are refuting a claim I didn’t make. I simply said that if the victims haven’t come forward and remain unidentified, how can it be said they are “awaiting justice”.

We don’t even know what their view of the alleged attacks are.

 

[Mex]

There's more to the article than that but looks like it doesn't always show all of the article after you've clicked translate. There's five more paragraphs after the one with the line you've quoted if its showing the whole article. Last one contains the 'quote' I mentioned earlier.

But it means little on its own. Could be mistranslation (as could what the Mirror says he's just said).

Thankyou and yes I had read the whole translation and did not experience the difficulties you did which is why I requested clarification.

The part which stuck with me explains a lot and is as follows ~
However, the reason for the murder investigation and the irritation, even anger in the British Isles about it could be a lack of understanding of the German justice system. Prosecutor HCW explains: "As soon as there is an initial suspicion of a criminal offence in Germany, an appropriate investigation must be initiated. There is a suspicion of murder here, so that murder is also being investigated."

Three countries, three laws

Normally, there are clear limits to when missing persons can be declared dead. According to the so-called "Missing Persons Act", missing persons can be declared dead after ten years without any sign of life - in Germany.

In the Maddie case, however, the matter is more complicated: Madeleine disappeared in Praia da Luz in Portugal in 2007 (13 years ago) and was a British national.

In addition, the investigation was never completed.

"Maddie" McCann doch nicht tot? Britische Zeitung feuert gegen Braunschweiger Ermittler

Die 2007 in Portugal entführte Madeleine "Maddie" McCann hält die Staatsanwaltschaft Braunschweig für tot. Die britische Zeitung "Mirror" schob dem Braunschweiger Staatsanwalt Hans Christian Wolters aber nun eine Aussage unter, die er nie getätigt habe.

regionalheute.de

There is always a logical explanation, but perhaps only if one is looked for.
My opinion

 

[Okapi]

You are refuting a claim I didn’t make. I simply said that if the victims haven’t come forward and remain unidentified, how can it be said they are “awaiting justice”.

We don’t even know what their view of the alleged attacks are.

Does this include the unidentified underage teenage girl though? With all respect, she could never have been a consensual partner in the sense that minors cannot give informed consent to any form of sexual activity.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Not because I want to defend HB (god forbid!) But just to point out that 'people smuggler' sounds quite different from what he was really caught doing...

To vima is a very reputable newspaper in Greece:

"From the investigation, it was established that the German in question, who lived in France, was arrested in 2011 in Igoumenitsa, when he tried to transport three illegal immigrants with his car. However, he did not appear in court and was found again in 2015 in Thessaloniki, whereupon he was sentenced to seven years and five months in prison and finally imprisoned in our country."

Ο «Ελληνας» που έριξε φως στην υπόθεση της Μαντλίν - ΤΟ ΒΗΜΑ

Ο ρόλος-κλειδί του Γερμανού που κρατούνταν στα Χανιά, η διάρρηξη στο σπίτι του υπόπτου για την αρπαγή του κοριτσιού, οι 22 βιντεοκασέτες-σοκ και τι είπε στη Σκότλαντ Γιαρντ

www.tovima.gr

But he wasn’t making kleftiko was he? If he’s caught transporting illegal migrants for money, he’s a people smuggler. Who knows how often he did it before getting caught, not that that matters because he did get caught.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Does this include the unidentified underage teenage girl though? With all respect, she could never have been a consensual partner in the sense that minors cannot give informed consent to any form of sexual activity.

No, it doesn’t include this attack on Salema Beach which was not a rape. While naked, except for a backpack, the perpetrator grabbed the 10 year old girl and masturbated. This victim was identified at the time when the crime was reported.

I am refereeing to the two alleged rapes at the farmhouse. The only evidence for these crimes are statements from HB and MS - both convicted criminals.

 

[Mex]

You are refuting a claim I didn’t make. I simply said that if the victims haven’t come forward and remain unidentified, how can it be said they are “awaiting justice”
We don’t even know what their view of the alleged attacks

With respect, you stated your opinion and I replied stating mine. I'm sorry if you found my reply confrontational as that was not my intention, I was sharing my thoughts

I too found it puzzling as did you that unknown/unnamed persons could feature on CB’s charge sheet, no dates, no times etc.

Your reasoning as far as I can tell is that these victims of aggravated rape exist because CB’s criminal friends said so and therefore you question that the crime happened = no victims.
I did not argue any point you made because all is fine by me as you affirm it as your opinion.

However my train of thought took a different course from yours and I expressed my opinion that

• there had to be intense scrutiny of each of the five cases prior to acceptance of the available evidence for charges to be allowed
• CB’s lawyer did not challenge two cases of aggravated rape being on his charge sheet which suggested the validation of the evidence against him in both cases allowing the charges to be laid against him.
• this suggested to me that the victims might not be unknowns but whose identities may in fact be known to the judiciary, just not to us. But this is something we won’t find out about until the long awaited trial finally takes place.
• it also suggests that the evidence given by CB's criminal friends passed muster as far as those tasked with scrutinising is concerned.

 

[Mex]

No, it doesn’t include this attack on Salema Beach which was not a rape. While naked, except for a backpack, the perpetrator grabbed the 10 year old girl and masturbated. This victim was identified at the time when the crime was reported.

I am refereeing to the two alleged rapes at the farmhouse. The only evidence for these crimes are statements from HB and MS - both convicted criminals.

The child on the beach was never unidentified and is able to give a description of her assailant.
___________________________________
A woman from Germany recently approached authorities, stating that she recognized Brueckner from television reports as the man who had attacked her when she was just a 10-year-old in April 2007.

Madeleine McCann: Christian Brueckner performed sex act in front of girl, 10, weeks before toddler disappeared

A woman alerted police after she recognized Brueckner from television reports as the man who had attacked her when she was 10 in April 2007

meaww.com

I think it is perfectly possible that the evidence given to the police by CB's criminal friends has been validated if it was used in the charges made against him for aggravated rape.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

With respect, you stated your opinion and I replied stating mine. I'm sorry if you found my reply confrontational as that was not my intention, I was sharing my thoughts

I too found it puzzling as did you that unknown/unnamed persons could feature on CB’s charge sheet, no dates, no times etc.

Your reasoning as far as I can tell is that these victims of aggravated rape exist because CB’s criminal friends said so and therefore you question that the crime happened = no victims.
I did not argue any point you made because all is fine by me as you affirm it as your opinion.

However my train of thought took a different course from yours and I expressed my opinion that

• there had to be intense scrutiny of each of the five cases prior to acceptance of the available evidence for charges to be allowed
• CB’s lawyer did not challenge two cases of aggravated rape being on his charge sheet which suggested the validation of the evidence against him in both cases allowing the charges to be laid against him.
• this suggested to me that the victims might not be unknowns but whose identities may in fact be known to the judiciary, just not to us. But this is something we won’t find out about until the long awaited trial finally takes place.
• it also suggests that the evidence given by CB's criminal friends passed muster as far as those tasked with scrutinising is concerned.

Please try to follow the argument and not confuse it. If you follow this exchange of posts, you originally stated tat there were “victims of five seperate crimes awaiting justice”.

As two of these victims are unidentified and we have no understanding of whether they even believe a crime has been committed, how can you say they are awaiting justice?

Beyond this, the only evidence there is that any offence occurred in these two cases comes from witness statements of two convicted criminals.

Currently, there are no outstanding charges against CB - they have been thrown out. If the charges go to court then we will see if CB is convicted for these two rape cases. In any event, we can be certain that your original statement that victims in five seperate cases are awaiting justice is incorrect, two of the victims haven’t even asked for justice.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

The child on the beach was never unidentified and is able to give a description of her assailant.
___________________________________
A woman from Germany recently approached authorities, stating that she recognized Brueckner from television reports as the man who had attacked her when she was just a 10-year-old in April 2007.

Madeleine McCann: Christian Brueckner performed sex act in front of girl, 10, weeks before toddler disappeared

A woman alerted police after she recognized Brueckner from television reports as the man who had attacked her when she was 10 in April 2007

meaww.com

I think it is perfectly possible that the evidence given to the police by CB's criminal friends has been validated if it was used in the charges made against him for aggravated rape.

The first two paragraphs make the same point I made.

The third paragraph is irrelevant so far as the Salema Beach attack.

It’s hard to understand what point you are trying to make with this post.

 

[Okapi]

No, it doesn’t include this attack on Salema Beach which was not a rape. While naked, except for a backpack, the perpetrator grabbed the 10 year old girl and masturbated. This victim was identified at the time when the crime was reported.

I am refereeing to the two alleged rapes at the farmhouse. The only evidence for these crimes are statements from HB and MS - both convicted criminals.

Does this include the unidentified underage teenage girl though? With all respect, she could never have been a consensual partner in the sense that minors cannot give informed consent to any form of sexual activity.

Ok apologies Denis, and also Mex. I think I have crossed wires here with you both as to which victims we are talking about. I was referring to the underage child aged about 14. I thought she was on the stolen camcorder video, according to HB & MS?

‘The prosecution has relied heavily on the testimony of witnesses MS. and HB., who stole a video camera and tapes from Brueckner's house in southern Portugal in 2006. The tapes included images of Brueckner molesting two other women•, according to prosecutors.

"At an unspecified time between Dec. 28, 2000, and April 8, 2006," Brueckner "surprised (...) and raped an unknown approximately 70-80-year-old woman in her bedroom at her vacation home in Portugal," the prosecution said.

‘The third victim was an "unknown German-speaking girl aged at least 14 years" whom the suspect "tied naked to a wooden pole in the living room" in the house where he lived in Praia da Luz, Portugal, beat her with a whip and forced her to perform oral sex.”’

‘The videotapes depicting these acts have since disappeared, according to the prosecutors.’


Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner charged with five new counts of rape and sexual abuse

*The first woman being referred to in this report being the Irish HB.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Ok apologies Denis, and also Mex. I think I have crossed wires here with you both as to which victims we are talking about. I was referring to the underage child aged about 14. I thought she was on the stolen camcorder video, according to HB & MS?

‘The prosecution has relied heavily on the testimony of witnesses MS. and HB., who stole a video camera and tapes from Brueckner's house in southern Portugal in 2006. The tapes included images of Brueckner molesting two other women•, according to prosecutors.

"At an unspecified time between Dec. 28, 2000, and April 8, 2006," Brueckner "surprised (...) and raped an unknown approximately 70-80-year-old woman in her bedroom at her vacation home in Portugal," the prosecution said.

‘The third victim was an "unknown German-speaking girl aged at least 14 years" whom the suspect "tied naked to a wooden pole in the living room" in the house where he lived in Praia da Luz, Portugal, beat her with a whip and forced her to perform oral sex.”’

‘The videotapes depicting these acts have since disappeared, according to the prosecutors.’


Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner charged with five new counts of rape and sexual abuse

*The first woman being referred to in this report being the Irish HB.

Okay, easiest way to explain is to list the alleged crimes:

1. Rape of a young German woman at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006;
2. Rape of an older Italian woman (although there are some reports this woman was British), again at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006 - this and the prior crime are the ones witnessed by HB and MS on the camcorder;
3. Rape of Hazel B at Praia da Rocha at her apartment in 2004;
4. Salema beach attack of the ten year-old girl in 2007;
5. Public exposure at the playground in 2017.

IMO, if there is physical evidence linking him to the Hazel B case (it’s been “leaked”/reported that they have a partial palm print) this is a strong case.

The beach and playground crimes are, while repulsive, comparatively less serious offences.

The rapes in 1, and 2, you would imagine would be very difficult to obtain a conviction - there is no video and no known victims.

Given the no doubt exhaustive investigation, I am sure the BKA was hopeful for its agenda to find more crimes to link CB to.

ETA: we have no idea how old the woman was in 1 and we don’t have any way of validating it other than the statements of HB and MS.

 

[Anxala]

"Maddie" McCann doch nicht tot? Britische Zeitung feuert gegen Braunschweiger Ermittler

Die 2007 in Portugal entführte Madeleine "Maddie" McCann hält die Staatsanwaltschaft Braunschweig für tot. Die britische Zeitung "Mirror" schob dem Braunschweiger Staatsanwalt Hans Christian Wolters aber nun eine Aussage unter, die er nie getätigt habe.

regionalheute.de

"Unfortunately, I can't tell you where the Mirror got its information, but it didn't come from me."


HCW was asked about the comments in the mirror & he said the above.

IMO it’s a subtle reminder of how tabloids try to change the narrative from story to story. Hopefully the Mirror have (from then) been accurate & verbatim with any HCW comments.

*Added - For context, this is HCW dismissing the comments attributed to him in that mirror article. Dismissing comments about the possibility of MM being alive or that this was his ‘private opinion’.

Yes, but he did say 'because in cases where children were kidnapped, they made a sexual crime then killed.' which is the relevant bit in the context of the 'could not have survived' Chinese rumours post I responded to - ie. HCW's reason for believing that MM is dead.

What he's denying is not relevant here.

 

[mrjitty]

However my train of thought took a different course from yours and I expressed my opinion that

• there had to be intense scrutiny of each of the five cases prior to acceptance of the available evidence for charges to be allowed
• CB’s lawyer did not challenge two cases of aggravated rape being on his charge sheet which suggested the validation of the evidence against him in both cases allowing the charges to be laid against him.
• this suggested to me that the victims might not be unknowns but whose identities may in fact be known to the judiciary, just not to us. But this is something we won’t find out about until the long awaited trial finally takes place.
• it also suggests that the evidence given by CB's criminal friends passed muster as far as those tasked with scrutinising is concerned.

RSBM

We don't know what submissions CBs lawyer will make - the Court controls the process and will determine if those charges can proceed. What we do know is at pre-trial stage, all the charges have been knocked out for now.

We do in fact know the victims are unknown as IIRC it says that in the indictment. If their names were merely suppressed it would say so.

 

[mrjitty]

Okay, easiest way to explain is to list the alleged crimes:

1. Rape of a young German woman at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006;
2. Rape of an older Italian woman (although there are some reports this woman was British), again at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006 - this and the prior crime are the ones witnessed by HB and MS on the camcorder;
3. Rape of Hazel B at Praia da Rocha at her apartment in 2004;
4. Salema beach attack of the ten year-old girl in 2007;
5. Public exposure at the playground in 2017.

IMO, if there is physical evidence linking him to the Hazel B case (it’s been “leaked”/reported that they have a partial palm print) this is a strong case.

The beach and playground crimes are, while repulsive, comparatively less serious offences.

The rapes in 1, and 2, you would imagine would be very difficult to obtain a conviction - there is no video and no known victims.

Given the no doubt exhaustive investigation, I am sure the BKA was hopeful for its agenda to find more crimes to link CB to.

ETA: we have no idea how old the woman was in 1 and we don’t have any way of validating it other than the statements of HB and MS.

Bits in bold

Critically they didn't see the same things on the tape.

I think this will come down to a likely novel legal point. Because they were sucessful in the trial relating to the elderly American, they now throw these 2 in because the same logic should apply about the veracity of the witness testimony, despite unknown victims.

The problem is, in that case, they had other corroboration, whereas in the 2 'video cases' they apparently have none. I think it will come down to a mostly intellectual question for the Court as to whether that is enough proof.

Although I think in general their evidence is to be accepted, how much can specific the details be trusted? In their evidence they appear not to have see the same rapes on the tape. But we can corroborate one of the witnesses about one of the rapes. But can we verify what they disagree on? Did they each not watch everything?

A lot will depend on testimony there.

 

[Anxala]

Okay, easiest way to explain is to list the alleged crimes:

1. Rape of a young German woman at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006;
2. Rape of an older Italian woman (although there are some reports this woman was British), again at the farmhouse between 2000 and 2006 - this and the prior crime are the ones witnessed by HB and MS on the camcorder;
3. Rape of Hazel B at Praia da Rocha at her apartment in 2004;
4. Salema beach attack of the ten year-old girl in 2007;
5. Public exposure at the playground in 2017.

No.2 is incorrect, Denis. That alleged older woman/farmhouse victim didn't make the cut for some unknown reason. Here's the correct list of charges just so we know where we are. No.2 and No.3 are the unknown unidentified victims for whom there's no assault date or physical evidence:

1. Hazel Behan (20 @ time/now 39) in her home, June 16, 2004, Praia de Rocha.

2. 14 year old teenager (assaulted/hit the naked girl with a whip. Said to have brutally forced the girl to have oral sex. The accused also videotaped this act). Took place between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006 on the Praia da Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

3. An elderly woman 70-80 yrs old (tied up & raped the victim in her holiday apt. He then hit the victim several times with a whip. The accused is said to have recorded the entire event with a video camera). Took place around the same time (between Dec. 28, 2000 to April 8, 2006) on the Praia de Luz, Algarve coast, Portugal.

4. 10 year old German girl (Joana.E) (wearing only shoes & otherwise naked. He grabbed the child's wrist & began to perform masturbation movements on his naked penis). On Salema (Zalema) beach, near Praia de Luz, Portugal, April 7, 2007).

5. 11 year old Portuguese girl (pulled down his trousers & underpants & made masturbation movements on his naked penis in order to sexually arouse himself, until the frightened girl ran to her father for help. The suspect was arrested on the spot by the Portuguese police). Exposed himself in playpark, São Bartolomeu de Messines, June 11, 2017).