Madeleine McCann: German Prisoner Identified as Suspect, #36

[frank-cole]

IMO, in the case of MM, HB is not a witness.
Also, HB was not a witness in the case of DM.
He was a witness of seeing two videos, with no reference to MM or DM.

Not an eye witness. His testimony however, was deemed credible & corroborated with evidence leading to the murder investigation. He was also deemed credible in a German courtroom. What he’s seen helped substantiate DM’s account of the MO. Indirect but IMO very relevant in that respect.

 

[mrjitty]

What are the main reasons that make you doubt he is responsible?

Personally it's the lack of progress.

I felt in 2020, if they had it right, evidence would drop and charges would follow. I think it is fair to say they were much further from charging that I anticipated when they went public. Obviously it is a difficult case, but not finding the killer evidence might be because they have it wrong.

This is all subject to not knowing what on earth they have.

 

[RichardKimble]

Personally it's the lack of progress.

I felt in 2020, if they had it right, evidence would drop and charges would follow. I think it is fair to say they were much further from charging that I anticipated when they went public. Obviously it is a difficult case, but not finding the killer evidence might be because they have it wrong.

This is all subject to not knowing what on earth they have.

If you look at what they don't have and work from there it doesn't leave much, imo you can pretty much rule the Tanner sighting out for two reasons, one O G identified a holiday maker in the area at the time, 2 clearly this holiday maker if not tannerman never saw any one else around this is what led to the timeline being moved on to circa 10 pm and Smithman.This person it's claimed never resembled CB.Was CB in the area a number used by him was ,so unless the caller or was it recipient qualifies it by saying it was CB they were talking to then he can't be placed there, no body, no forensics, no video or photographic evidence of the victim and suspect together, with what can a case be made of that will pass the BARD standard ?

 

[mrjitty]

IMO they need something that ties CB to murder so they can end run the whole 5a fiasco

I am sure the plan was to find the body which gives them the case.

Somehow that didn't work out.

 

[Okapi]

On the subject of CB and the unidentified “victims”, I also think it’s worth mentioning that CB was not exclusively a monster to women.

He held down girlfriends, some of which found him nice, even gentlemanly.

Of the women he dated, there was a huge age range from NM (teenager) to the women who stayed with him at the box factory (25 years his senior IIRC).

It’s not impossible to consider him recording consensual sexual activity with some of these women.

Just to reiterate my position here, I am not defending CB, nor discounting any of the awful crimes he has been convicted for. I am however not convinced by the German prosecutor. I think these alleged crimes are being used to develop a narrative about CB in relation to the MM crime in place of real evidence.

I appreciate your viewpoint that the charges against CB aren’t watertight, Denis. And that just because he’s a piece of work doesn’t make him guilty.

But I have to come back to the girlfriend comments, certainly those of his girlfriends whose existence is in the public domain. I couldn’t walk by them. Because I think the nice guy persona is a ruse.

Unknown girlfriend: Underage
Hunt for Madeleine McCann suspect's 'underage Kosovan girlfriend'


Identity Suppressed: CB convicted of abusing her 5yo daughter, including recording the abuse.
Christian Brueckner was jailed for abusing ex-girlfriend's daughter

Identity Suppressed: Scared to go on record to speak out against CB. Beaten during their relationship.
McCann suspect's chilling message to girlfriend day before 3yo disappeared

NF: Said CB was obsessed with violent sex and pre-pubescent girls.
Madeleine McCann suspect DID drive his winnebago on a long journey through Portugal on night toddler went missing - Olive Press News Spain
Madeleine McCann suspect was 'obsessed by pre-pubescent girls' says ex

NM: Discovered CB had child on his phone, including himself as perpetrator.
Girlfriend of suspect in Madeleine McCann case reveals major clue

Was also “beaten black and blue” by CB.
Madeleine McCann: Hunt for suspect's ex who he 'beat black and blue'

Identity Suppressed: Said CB was possessive, physically abusive and stalked her. Found him hiding under her bed.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-suspects-ex-girlfriend-2217715

AM: Said CB hated women and subjected her to degrading sexual behaviour.
Madeleine McCann suspect claimed to 'sex slave' ex he 'knows what happened to little Maddie'

All up, these accounts reveal domestic violence, sadistic sex, coercive control (with the charming gentleman persona) and the typical paedophile grooming of a woman to gain access to her child.

I also notice mention in these reports that he often chose petite women, not just underage girls. HazelB (5ft1) and the British girlfriend he stalked are included in that category. He is over 6ft IIRC.

Hazel B told how “He made comments about my weight, how I looked, how ugly and fat I was.”

It’s possible to infer that she was labeled ‘fat’ simply for having a body that was not preadolescent, because she certainly wasn’t overweight.

LISTEN: Brave woman reveals details of horrific rape ordeal live on radio


Given his teenage convictions for child abuse, CB imo is not a man who has ever had normal, healthy, intimate relationships. The charade of them, certainly. Just my perception.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

I appreciate your viewpoint that the charges against CB aren’t watertight, Denis. And that just because he’s a piece of work doesn’t make him guilty.

But I have to come back to the girlfriend comments, certainly those of his girlfriends whose existence is in the public domain. I couldn’t walk by them. Because I think the nice guy persona is a ruse.

Unknown girlfriend: Underage
Hunt for Madeleine McCann suspect's 'underage Kosovan girlfriend'


Identity Suppressed: CB convicted of abusing her 5yo daughter, including recording the abuse.
Christian Brueckner was jailed for abusing ex-girlfriend's daughter

Identity Suppressed: Scared to go on record to speak out against CB. Beaten during their relationship.
McCann suspect's chilling message to girlfriend day before 3yo disappeared

NF: Said CB was obsessed with violent sex and pre-pubescent girls.
Madeleine McCann suspect DID drive his winnebago on a long journey through Portugal on night toddler went missing - Olive Press News Spain
Madeleine McCann suspect was 'obsessed by pre-pubescent girls' says ex

NM: Discovered CB had child *advertiser censored* on his phone, including himself as perpetrator.
Girlfriend of suspect in Madeleine McCann case reveals major clue

Was also “beaten black and blue” by CB.
Madeleine McCann: Hunt for suspect's ex who he 'beat black and blue'

Identity Suppressed: Said CB was possessive, physically abusive and stalked her. Found him hiding under her bed.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-suspects-ex-girlfriend-2217715

AM: Said CB hated women and subjected her to degrading sexual behaviour.
Madeleine McCann suspect claimed to 'sex slave' ex he 'knows what happened to little Maddie'

All up, these accounts reveal domestic violence, sadistic sex, coercive control (with the charming gentleman persona) and the typical paedophile grooming of a woman to gain access to her child.

I also notice mention in these reports that he often chose petite women, not just underage girls. HazelB (5ft1) and the British girlfriend he stalked are included in that category. He is over 6ft IIRC.

Hazel B told how “He made comments about my weight, how I looked, how ugly and fat I was.”

It’s possible to infer that she was labeled ‘fat’ simply for having a body that was not preadolescent, because she certainly wasn’t overweight.

LISTEN: Brave woman reveals details of horrific rape ordeal live on radio


Given his teenage convictions for child abuse, CB imo is not a man who has ever had normal, healthy, intimate relationships. The charade of them, certainly. Just my perception.

I wouldn’t want him as a son-in-law but I haven’t made any claim that he is something he clearly isn’t.

That said, some of his ex-girlfriends had no issue with him and he didn’t rape or abuse every woman he had a relationship with.

My point is, for three of the alleged rapes, no crimes have been reported. Is it possible that some or all of these were not offences at all?

 

[frank-cole]

If you look at what they don't have and work from there it doesn't leave much, imo you can pretty much rule the Tanner sighting out for two reasons, one O G identified a holiday maker in the area at the time, 2 clearly this holiday maker if not tannerman never saw any one else around this is what led to the timeline being moved on to circa 10 pm and Smithman.This person it's claimed never resembled CB.Was CB in the area a number used by him was ,so unless the caller or was it recipient qualifies it by saying it was CB they were talking to then he can't be placed there, no body, no forensics, no video or photographic evidence of the victim and suspect together, with what can a case be made of that will pass the BARD standard ?

“Was CB in the area a number used by him was ,so unless the caller or was it recipient qualifies it by saying it was CB they were talking to then he can't be placed there”.

IMO he can be placed there by different forms of evidence. Although early in the season there will have been a mild level of tourist footfall, therefore a lot of holiday photos in circulation. IMO it’s probable that a tourist photo or video exists with CB in the background. The German’s no longer appear (publicly) too focussed on appealing for the caller. Perhaps they’ve confirmed his presence at the scene in other ways. Obviously there are other indications he was very much in the area. Including cell site triangulation, Carole Tramner claiming she spotted CB that afternoon, CB telling people he was near the OC & the material evidence he murdered MM. But IMO, other than forensics or CCTV, pictures or videos of him in the area would be the next strongest piece of evidence.

 

[Deleted member 268165]

Not an eye witness. His testimony however, was deemed credible & corroborated with evidence leading to the murder investigation. He was also deemed credible in a German courtroom. What he’s seen helped substantiate DM’s account of the MO. Indirect but IMO very relevant in that respect.

HB credibility was not taken into account. The hair root was.

 

[frank-cole]

HB credibility was not taken into account. The hair root was.

AFAIK both HB & MS testified during DM’s trial & were deemed credible. Forensics was the clincher but establishing & corroborating the MO is very useful.

 

[Deleted member 268165]

AFAIK both HB & MS testified during DM’s trial & were deemed credible. Forensics was the clincher but establishing & corroborating the MO is very useful.

MO is a clue to the investigators, not an evidence IMO.

 

[Okapi]

I wouldn’t want him as a son-in-law but I haven’t made any claim that he is something he clearly isn’t.

That said, some of his ex-girlfriends had no issue with him and he didn’t rape or abuse every woman he had a relationship with.

My point is, for three of the alleged rapes, no crimes have been reported. Is it possible that some or all of these were not offences at all?

Me neither! I just want to reiterate that the charming man facade is a well known characteristic of a domestic violence perpetrator.

 

[mrjitty]

My point is, for three of the alleged rapes, no crimes have been reported. Is it possible that some or all of these were not offences at all?

RSBM

Technically, your point is well made.

Prosecution must prove both actus reus and mens rea. I am sure the defence will get into the possibility that the older woman seen on the tape was in fact DM. Or maybe, he never saw a tape but CB told him ... etc

I think the answer will depend 100% on how well the witness stands up in court, if there is zero corroboration.

 

[mrjitty]

MO is a clue to the investigators, not an evidence IMO.

Agreed.

Previous break in to OC would be evidence for example.

The facts of the American case are probably not probative

 

[Pixie Child]

“Was CB in the area a number used by him was ,so unless the caller or was it recipient qualifies it by saying it was CB they were talking to then he can't be placed there”.

IMO he can be placed there by different forms of evidence. Although early in the season there will have been a mild level of tourist footfall, therefore a lot of holiday photos in circulation. IMO it’s probable that a tourist photo or video exists with CB in the background. The German’s no longer appear (publicly) too focussed on appealing for the caller. Perhaps they’ve confirmed his presence at the scene in other ways. Obviously there are other indications he was very much in the area. Including cell site triangulation, Carole Tramner claiming she spotted CB that afternoon, CB telling people he was near the OC & the material evidence he murdered MM. But IMO, other than forensics or CCTV, pictures or videos of him in the area would be the next strongest piece of evidence.

They seem to have just one witness who used the -680 number to call him. (Could be the girlfriend he told about the horrible job.) It’s possible that BP will confirm that CB still had the phone in his possession on 3/5.

 

[Consider Dudley]

Personally it's the lack of progress.

I felt in 2020, if they had it right, evidence would drop and charges would follow. I think it is fair to say they were much further from charging that I anticipated when they went public. Obviously it is a difficult case, but not finding the killer evidence might be because they have it wrong.

This is all subject to not knowing what on earth they have.

I’m sorry if this comes across rude or bickering but I don’t think a perceived lack of progress in evidence gathering is a very logical reason for believing someone is not responsible for a crime. I was hoping for more tangible reasons for dismissing CB as a suspect.

 

[Dave55]

IMO they need something that ties CB to murder so they can end run the whole 5a fiasco

I am sure the plan was to find the body which gives them the case.

Somehow that didn't work out.

I’m sorry if this comes across rude or bickering but I don’t think a perceived lack of progress in evidence gathering is a very logical reason for believing someone is not responsible for a crime. I was hoping for more tangible reasons for dismissing CB as a suspect.

I think the rape cases will establish an MO....almost a signature..and this is what Wolters is working towards

 

[mrjitty]

I’m sorry if this comes across rude or bickering but I don’t think a perceived lack of progress in evidence gathering is a very logical reason for believing someone is not responsible for a crime. I was hoping for more tangible reasons for dismissing CB as a suspect.

Not at all.

*This is written subject to not knowing what their 'concrete' evidence is*

When LE develop a theory of the case, based on intelligence (e.g. a snitch), the discovery of circumstantial evidence tends to confirm you are on the right track.

If you don't find that evidence, then it could just be because too many years have gone by.

But it also could be, that the evidence doesn't exist.

I think there is a real possibility in this case that CB put himself in the mix with his statements/writings as a fantasist, and then there was 'suspicious stuff" like the Jag and the 'profile stuff'

or he did it

 

[Deleted member 268165]

I think the rape cases will establish an MO....almost a signature..and this is what Wolters is working towards

Could you explain which "signature" you see? Thanks.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Could you explain which "signature" you see? Thanks.

That’s a very good question. HB and DM seem similar but everything else is random IMO.

 

[mrjitty]

Could you explain which "signature" you see? Thanks.

The thing i don't understand about this 'signature' theory is you don't need to prosecute entire cases to get evidence in a different murder case. You just bring all the evidence in your murder case or bring all the charges together.