Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #1

[SouthAussie]

Our Prime Minister has called a National Security Council meeting in Canberra ... as this stands it looks less like an accident than a crime. We demand full accesss to site, debris, black box, and individuals who can shed light on this event. Will summon Russian ambassador to seek assurance of full cooperation. Owe it to peace of wider world. ... Ch 7 news report .. current Parliamentary presser

Leader of Opposition ... "We are in close contact with Netherlands ... Dutch have lost most people on this flight."

 

[Minette]

Lol, that cat is trying to attack my feet right now. I agree with you, but I also think that extremist views tend to flourish where there is deprivation and poverty. I just don't like the idea of sanctions that punish the most vulnerable people the most. It's a long shot to hope it will lead to a successful uprising against an already corrupt government.

I agree, but part of the 'face' Russia presents to the world is that its government is democratically elected. If sanctions put pressure on the government and the Russian people object, then either the current regime has to respond to the people it represents or take off the mask and admit it is despotic. A democratically elected government has all sorts of legitimacy that a 'regime' doesn't. And depending on the actions taken, it won't immediately plunge the citizens into deprivation and poverty. But in any case, you can't allow a government to be complicit in terrorist acts and face no consequences because the citizens of that country might face consequences, too. I mean, IMO.

P.S. Is your kitty a Russian Blue? I just love his ear set!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

No chance MAL will survive now .. zero IMO.

 

[panthera]

"The plane went down exactly 18 years after TWA Flight 800 crashed on July 17, 1996, killing all 230 people aboard off the coast of Long Island."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ussian-border-article-1.1870413#ixzz37m3I04ax

That fact wasn't lost on me even before reading this post. And most tragically, I personally believe in the same manner. Watching CNN and the images of the debris field so similar in several ways, including finding personal belongings of the victims and some large pieces of the aircraft.

MOO

 

[jjenny]

I agree, but part of the 'face' Russia presents to the world is that its government is democratically elected. If sanctions put pressure on the government and the Russian people object, then either the current regime has to respond to the people it represents or take off the mask and admit it is despotic. A democratically elected government has all sorts of legitimacy that a 'regime' doesn't. And depending on the actions taken, it won't immediately plunge the citizens into deprivation and poverty. But in any case, you can't allow a government to be complicit in terrorist acts and face no consequences because the citizens of that country might face consequences, too. I mean, IMO.

P.S. Is your kitty a Russian Blue? I just love his ear set!

Even assuming pro-Russian separatist shot down the plane, what makes you think that Putin has any control over them?

 

[steelman]

The cowards that did this sure are quiet all of a sudden.

Wonder why.................

Oh yeah, retaliation..................that's why.

 

[Amee]

The International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) says it had recently warned of a safety issue in the region near where Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/mh17-safety-issue/5606580


Ukrainian wire taps appear to have captured pro-Russian separatists claiming responsibility for shooting down a Malaysian airliner over rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine.

 

[newone]

"The plane went down exactly 18 years after TWA Flight 800 crashed on July 17, 1996, killing all 230 people aboard off the coast of Long Island."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ussian-border-article-1.1870413#ixzz37m3I04ax

that is beyond an eerie coincidence.....I realize that the two are not connected but it is unsettling.
I was in total disbelief about the circumstances of TWA800. Today's incident pretty clear what has happened. Thanks for the reminder.....RIP all aboard both flights

MOO

 

[Amee]

US vice-president Joe Biden says it was "blown out of the sky" and that it was "not an accident".

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has told Parliament it appears that Russian-backed rebels shot the plane down.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/malaysia-airlines-jet-crashes-in-ukraine/5606012



Watch now
Federal Parliament discussing shooting down of MH17

http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

 

[SouthAussie]

CIA has put out worldwide memo .. asking for intelligence on who is behind attack. Obama says has instructed intelligence to work closely with Russian govt. .. Ch 7 news report

 

[jellybeanz]

I agree, but part of the 'face' Russia presents to the world is that its government is democratically elected. If sanctions put pressure on the government and the Russian people object, then either the current regime has to respond to the people it represents or take off the mask and admit it is despotic. A democratically elected government has all sorts of legitimacy that a 'regime' doesn't. And depending on the actions taken, it won't immediately plunge the citizens into deprivation and poverty. But in any case, you can't allow a government to be complicit in terrorist acts and face no consequences because the citizens of that country might face consequences, too. I mean, IMO.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Fragments of the missile should still be part of the wreckage and will trace back to the source with minimal difficulty IF a neutral investigation team has access to the site surely .. then the proverbial will hit the fan.

 

[Minette]

Even assuming pro-Russian separatist shot down the plane, what makes you think that Putin has any control over them?

I don't think he has as much control of them as HE thinks he has. But yes, I think he supplied them and encouraged them.

 

[jjenny]

I don't think he has as much control of them as HE thinks he has. But yes, I think he supplied them and encouraged them.

Russia didn't give them the Buk system (if that what they were using). Ukraine claims they took one of their (Ukrainian) Buk systems.

 

[Steely Dan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some Ukrainians want to seperate from the Ukraine and go back under Russia's power.

Yes, there is a large separatist movement being sponsored by the Russian government.

I'd expect them (Australia) to cancel Putin's invitation to an important meeting coming up shortly there. More importantly I would look for them to take economic sanctions against Russian interests in their country. Expecting the Russian people to do anything about the they have running their country is a bit much. I suspect most Russians admire this guy because he 'stands up' for them. The only way they are going to get rid of him is if his reckless actions bring hardship and misery on them.

I think they can make sanctions that will hurt the leaders a lot more than the people. I also wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't spur a UN force to go to the Russian Ukraine border. JMO

Back in May, my husband and I were over in France visiting with family and went to dinner at the home of one of my husband's childhood friends. As usual, talk at the dinner table turned to politics (arguing about politics--and I'm not just talking national or international politics, either--is the French national sport, I'm convinced.) At some point the conversation turned to events in the U.S. and I blurted out, "here we are arguing over Obamacare (that's what they call it over there, I'm not taking sides with that appellation) while Russia is starting WWIII in the Ukraine and the U.S. and the EU are doing nothing." And everyone got really quiet and agreed and then we went back to arguing over the local town council's decision to designate an area as a public park but not build any restrooms with predictable results.

Anyway, the point is that no one wants to believe that the world can blow up and go to international war over what seems to be a minor territorial dispute between two countries or two factions within the same country--thus ignoring the lessons of WWI and WWII and I will throw the Vietnam and Korean wars in there for good measure.

From Wikipedia on the start of WWI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I
And also from Wiki, how the ineffectual responses of the rest of the world to territorial aggression in Europe led to world war:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II

Does any of this sound, you know, familiar????

I also felt that from the minute Russia started amassing troops on the Ukrainian border that WWIII is an inevitability.

As of right now, I don't think the incidents are connected.
It's just weird that both incidents involve Malaysia Air...

I agree.

Lol, that cat is trying to attack my feet right now. I agree with you, but I also think that extremist views tend to flourish where there is deprivation and poverty. I just don't like the idea of sanctions that punish the most vulnerable people the most. It's a long shot to hope it will lead to a successful uprising against an already corrupt government.

I think they'll try to make sanctions that hurt the leaders most of all.

I also think that Russian news sources are going to be reporting this very differently. AFAIK, they don't have internet restrictions so hopefully the truth will be found out in the country eventually. This may start to erode Putin's popularity. At least I hope so.

All is JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

First Aussie victims named .. perhaps last name Rizk (too quick to catch) .. Melbourne couple, caught an earlier flight than planned.

 

[gitana1]

This is scary. Really scary. Gut feeling is the missing flight is connected.

RIP to all on board.

Im not sure how.

I am going to revise my thoughts from earlier. Yes, this is something which could start some sort of wider conflict...I had not considered the nationalities aboard the flight, which was my mistake. Depending on which country lost souls, there may indeed be some serious repercussions...at the very least, some countries will demand answers, and this time, I believe, there have been so many eyes/monitors available because of Putin's take over of Crimea and because of the Ukraine war (and it is a war, whether or not it's been declared). There are MANY eyes on that area, so there should be some real information forthcoming.

Apparently, there were 20ish Americans on board.

And also, while we're grieving and being upset, we must remember that Russia (at the time, it was USSR, iirc), and we, the US, have shot down commercial airliners, on accident (and I believe another country did, too, but I can't recall which).

Prayers for all aboard, and for all leaders of countries to keep a calm head. There are enough flashpoints around the world right now, we don't need another one.

Best-
Herding Cats

What have we shot down? What commercial flight from another country have we purposefully shot down? Or even Russia?

In my opinion? Yes. He wants to start something, if not now it will happen eventually.

Agreed. He's as crazy as any of the famous dictators in recent history.

Omg Fox just showed bodies at the crash site.

This should not happen. How do the families fell having their loved one's corpses published?

Putin = Hitler in my opinion. They don't have concentration camps for undesirables yet, but they're probably coming. Putin is doing the same thing Hitler did when he started taking over countries. Hitler said he was just taking over countries that had a German majority. Putin has said he wants countries that have a Russian majority.

As I understand it Putin yearns for the days of the Soviet Union and I think he's trying to get all of the countries in the Soviet Union again. Crimea was first because, IIRC, they are the supplier of oil for the Russians.

I've also heard that Putin is extremely popular in Russia.

Bingo.

This is the kind of thing that happens when other countries no longer fear the United States. If there were indeed 23 Americans on board, then somebody needs to pay, and pay dearly.

Oh boy. Here we go with the our president is a wimp argument which is why incidents involving other countries and Asian airlines occur. How about Lockerbie? 187 Americans on board. Reagan in office. I guess Reagan was such a wimp that Libya wasn't scared of us, right?

 

[Steely Dan]

I don't think he has as much control of them as HE thinks he has. But yes, I think he supplied them and encouraged them.

Putin is former KGB. I think he has firm control of the puppet strings. There isn't much the separatists can do that he would be upset with any way. JMO

 

[Minette]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Bolded by me, from your link:

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[7] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran.[8]

How much do you think the Russians/Ukranian separatists will pay to the families of the victims of MA777?

Although I guess if we could determine that the Ukraine had fired on Russian flights in the area that would be more parallel to the case you cited:

In September 1980, the war between Iraq and Iran had expanded to include air attacks against oil tankers and merchant shipping of neighboring countries. The Flight 655 incident occurred a year after the Iraqi Air Force attack on the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Stark on 17 May 1987. U.S. naval forces had also exchanged gunfire with Iranian gunboats in the fall of 1987, and the U.S. Navy guided-missile frigate USS Samuel B. Roberts had struck an Iranian sea mine in April 1988. Two months before the incident the US had engaged in Operation Praying Mantis resulting in the sinking of the Iranian frigate Sahand. Tensions were therefore high in the Strait of Hormuz at the time of the incident with Flight 655.

In other words, the U.S. answered for its actions in the International Court of Justice even though its mistaken strike against the Iranian airliner had occurred after previous attacks against U.S. targets. I know that I, for one, will be holding my breath to see how much compensation Russia pays the families of the victims of MA777.

 

[SouthAussie]

"Stupid statement by Russian president saying Russia is not involved ... trying to distance himself from attack. Under Ukraine Govt ... of course it is, and Ukraine is part of Russia" ... Aussie commentary on Ch 7 news

Suggesting Putin will not be invited to next G-20 meeting.