Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[i.b.nora]

She (Katy Perry) has no idea what she is talking about, imo.

 

[Yoda]

She (Katy Perry) has no idea what she is talking about, imo.

Did I miss something or do you have more than one thread open and posted here by accident?

Saw your edit- I understand now. :seeya:

 

[Mrs G Norris]

She (Katy Perry) has no idea what she is talking about, imo.

I know right? She's going to be embarrassed when someone corrects her mistake.

 

[CARIIS]

ITA ElleElle, I cannot fathom what the people there are going through right now. Not only are they dealing with the civil war going on, now there are bodies crashing through their homes because some monster (whoever they are) shot a plane out of the sky at 33,000 feet.

For me, an American, I would liken it to a plane going down over farmland, say in the middle of Indiana. There would immediately be Medical Examiners and FAA inspectors on site. Admittedly, the "experts" would be flown in hours later, but certainly not days later. It is obviously a different scenario between the Ukraine in the midst of a civil war and rural Indiana. However, in 2014 the world is a very accessible place, especially for the powers that be as evidenced by the non partisan group that was at the site the very next morning.

Have we ever seen something like this in history? A situation where many people of many countries have perished due to an act of terrorism and non partisan (if I'm saying this wrong I'm sorry, but groups like OSCE or the Red Cross are not allowed in)?

The sad fact of the matter is that two days after the crash of MH17 the scene is not secure. Some of the people who perished have been sent to locations unknown. Others are still there, in the fields. No grid search has been done and international contingent has been allowed more than the briefest access.

The people that lost their lives aboard MH17 deserve far better than what is being given them. Their families deserve better. The world is not a state of civil war and it is unacceptable that the parties involved in their own conflict cannot, for the smallest moment, give peace to innocent victims of their mistakes.

Who steps in now? Who makes this right? Can this ever be made right?

ALWAYS MOO

Ya know what it is like , especially for all of us who really know what is happening over there - its like it is slowly creeping up on all of US the enormity, the confusing, the angering, the this just does not fit in anywhere, this is abnormal, this is not civilized,

and I think that since we are following it it is like a build up -- cause nothing is changing, it just keeps going and going .......people over there are walking about calmly its as if nothing happened its just strange

and we all know like logistics stuff -- its not evcen like anyone EVEN IF LYING is telling us something is going to happen, were planning stuff, we got 45 trucks coming, it will take xx

its just stagnant, nothing is going anywhere... the pond is perfectly still .......clouds are not moving .... nothing has changed ......its like a time warp....car out of gas time to address...are we nuts did this jsut happen 25 minutes ago and SOMEOMNE is coming.............nothing is being done..... (except a lot of talking) total powerlessness , there it is....oh well it happened....... lets argue politics for another week or so let em lie there till oh who knows.........its like a stalled car...................noone is loking for jumper cables...........or a tow truck............. a ride or a taxi............just nothing .

we are cognitive animals we need things to make sense....to have some order............

noone is making any promises about anything its just messed up ....and hey the first 24 hours ok takes some time considering the whole mess......that "grace " peroid has elapsed world ......expiration date exceeded.................your library card HAS expired................time to renew now ..........enough already......chop chop lets get on this.........the milk container is empty..............they tossed 1/6 of the dead in the back of a truck that looks like it might fall apart .......woopey.........and you know what is even worse, it felt like they were doing what little they did just to shut us up for the weekend.............. ok fine well grab a few bodies for you world not leave us alone.......the printer is out of paper...............dishwasher needs to be emptied......god

everyone to pls watch out for increased gas masks, then move into biohazard suits....

and while I am in this state of mind! I just saw that damn truck posted a while back that are using to move the deceased.......you would not put horses that you love in that thing.......not evne sure it will make it .....did not even cover it up ........kinda like hualing a broken down car on the back of a tow truck .....it was nausating if any of you have not seen it scroll back ugh personally I would have preferred they use the dump truck they used for rubbish, and put the rubbish in the truck they used to transport the human beings

, and Miss Elle - its is all good ---feel like crying, and am! and that is fine....

Its just no there has never been anything like this in human history and for all the people just sailing along well, if this is a vision of the future they had better take note

my doggie knows I am sad she is nunging me

Humm I think I am done maybe not! I thank you for my vent........getting it out is helpful in any situation.

This deserves a good cry......................................................and I am taking it!

 

[Brightbird]

Is that right though? 100 + AIDS delegates on their way to Melbourne + 100 Unicef Volunteers?? I'm wondering if she's not mixing the two groups up?

I saw on ABC news last night and the Age today that the number of Aids conference delegates was changed to 6 people. I'm on my phone or I'd look for a link.
This is the first I've heard about UNICEF volunteers though.

 

[fruity]

Oh my. What are the chances?!

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...-airlines-planes/story-fnizu68q-1226995067518

Dutch man cancelled bookings on BOTH Malaysian Airlines flights which ended in tragedy.

 

[gitana1]

Has anyone see reports from people at the scene detailing this 'dragging' around of passenger bodies? I wonder what is meant by this exactly. The only photos I've seen today are of workers on site moving bodies (in body bags) on stretchers and placing them together for pick up.

There seems to be outrage that bodies aren't being moved to be stored and also outrage that the bodies are being 'dragged around'. I wonder if it does actually mean the bodies are being mishandled, or that the workers have so many bodies to bag up, they're doing it quickly and it appears they are not doing it 'sensitively'.

These are a bunch of bumbling, ignorant militants who don't know what the hell they are doing and who aare denying unfettered access to those who do. I believe they are hapahazardly hsndling bodies in half hearted attempts to clear the scene but they are ignorant, savage people who have no organization, no guidelines ad no skill in processing a crash site, recovering the dead and preserving the evidence. It is outrageous that this is being allowed to happen.

Here what the Dutch president has to say:

"I want to see results in the form of unimpeded access and rapid recovery," Rutte said in a press briefing. Nearly two-thirds of the people on the jetliner, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, were Dutch.Rutte called images of people rummaging through the debris and belongings of victims "downright disgusting."
'A very intense conversation'
Rutte told reporters of what he called "a very intense conversation" with Putin on Saturday in which he told the Russian leader "the opportunity expires to show the world that he is serious about helping." http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/19/world...airlines-crash/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Putin has everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing an independent investigation into the crash .. access to the crash site: not going to happen. It's fortunate for him that in this case he can blame his proxy / rebels.

 

[gramcracker]

as I see it, Putin conducts himself as a warlord rather than a legitimate head of state. holding the recent Olympics in Russia was a very poor move IMO because it granted him an air of respectability he does not deserve. these Ukrainian separatists conduct themselves as gangbangers rather than a legitimate militia fighting for freedom from an oppressor. so now we have gangbangers dictating access by CSIs to a crime scene they created, while demonstrating that they are exceedingly proud of their previous and continued actions. they are spitting in the faces of civilized humans. why does Putin get away with what he does/doesn't do? because he is a major source of fossil fuel products for that region of the world. we see the same scenario in the Middle East. the decent and humane people in this world could/would easily quash Putin and his ilk if we were not dependent on what they have. this is what I see when I stand really far back and look at the really big picture. I often wonder what history will say about us and our priorities 500 years from now

 

[CARIIS]

Interpol should place the passengers' passports locked somehow. We don't need identity theft with all this chaos.

View attachment 55201

the first time I saw that shot i thought samething, someof em looked right off the press odd after a 6 mile freefall

 

[CARIIS]

as I see it, Putin conducts himself as a warlord rather than a legitimate head of state. holding the recent Olympics in Russia was a very poor move IMO because it granted him an air of respectability he does not deserve. these Ukrainian separatists conduct themselves as gangbangers rather than a legitimate militia fighting for freedom from an oppressor. so now we have gangbangers dictating access by CSIs to a crime scene they created, while demonstrating that they are exceedingly proud of their previous and continued actions. they are spitting in the faces of civilized humans. why does Putin get away with what he does/doesn't do? because he is a major source of fossil fuel products for that region of the world. we see the same scenario in the Middle East. the decent and humane people in this world could/would easily quash Putin and his ilk if we were not dependent on what they have. this is what I see when I stand really far back and look at the really big picture. I often wonder what history will say about us and our priorities 500 years from now

if civiliaztion survives the way we are going doubtful just to add some juice to this statement ISIS has 88 pound of nuclear crap they stole like 10 days ago USa and Atomic commission said its not really that bad nuclear stuff is there "good" nuclear stuff I doubt they took it becasue they wanted to dispose of it properly!

.............so our history may be shorter than we think!

 

[CARIIS]

These are a bunch of bumbling, ignorant militants who don't know what the hell they are doing and who aare denying unfettered access to those who do. I believe they are hapahazardly hsndling bodies in half hearted attempts to clear the scene but they are ignorant, savage people who have no organization, no guidelines ad no skill in processing a crash site, recovering the dead and preserving the evidence. It is outrageous that this is being allowed to happen.



Here what the Dutch president has to say:

"I want to see results in the form of unimpeded access and rapid recovery," Rutte said in a press briefing. Nearly two-thirds of the people on the jetliner, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, were Dutch.Rutte called images of people rummaging through the debris and belongings of victims "downright disgusting."
'A very intense conversation'
Rutte told reporters of what he called "a very intense conversation" with Putin on Saturday in which he told the Russian leader "the opportunity expires to show the world that he is serious about helping." http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/19/world...airlines-crash/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2

Re "I want to see results in the form of unimpeded access and rapid recovery

IMO all leaders need to stop talking like this! It makes it sound like they have not already violated all norms in civilization..... does that make sense.............? a statement like that is IMO "ok" the first 24 hours but when does it change to this is not acceptable.....you know what I mean.

 

[CARIIS]

Putin has everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing an independent investigation into the crash .. access to the crash site: not going to happen. It's fortunate for him that in this case he can blame his proxy / rebels.

I agree--- a couple more days and doing an investigation is a waste of money time. We know what happened, in this type of accident the very small nuances are the things that matter in clearing up the more subtle questions......and that time peroid has passed................noone is going to pay for this just the logictiocs are numbing...........tons of stuff will have to be flown and driven in tons bullsozers, cranes, heavy load semi trucks, helicopters. experts, etc etc

housing where do you put 400 people? Commute 4 hours a day back and forth.....do you dare leave $5 million cranes with terrorist thugs? Bring in your own police force to guard it where do all those people live, food, water??

how do you get heavy equipmetn in? Is one assuming the two lane highway can handle the weight of such an operation? Fuel ?? Guns everywhere shooting missles

Its so totally unrealistic to think in the whole context they can launch a real investigation............

components of the investigation, such as an Operations Group, Structures Group, Maintenance Group, Air Traffic Control Group, Weather Group Chairman, Witness Group, cockpit voice recorder transcripts, air traffic control tape transcripts, ground track plots created from FAA radar raw data, engine tear down reports, diagrams, specifications, photographs, computer recreations, transcripts of public hearings, etc.

• Airworthiness Directives Files
• Service Bulletins and Letters and Instructions
• TSOs
• Advisory Circulars and Other FAA Orders
• General Aviation Inspection Aids
• Patent Applications
• Hazard Reports
• Service Difficulty Reports
• Malfunction Defect Reports
• Overhaul and Maintenance Records
• Annual or Periodic Inspection Records
• Pilot, Airplane, Engine and Propeller Logbooks
• Certified NWS Weather Data
• FAA Facility Logs
• FAA Aircraft Certification Files
• FAA Airman License and Medical Files
• FAA Airman Training Records
• FAA Aircraft Title and Registration Records
• TRACON Radar Raw Data generated by ARTS
• NTAP Radar Raw data from the ARTCC
• Flight Plans and Ship Logs
• Investigative Reports of Federal, State, County and Municipal Law Enforcement, Emergency, Fire and Rescue Agencies
• Medical Reports (its amazing what is quoted in medical history taken by doctors)
• Autopsy Reports
• CAMI Toxicology Reports
• Wreckage Scene Photos
• Wreckage Pattern Videotapes
• Airport Data
• Navigational Charts
• Instrument Approach Plates
• Reports of similar accidents involving similar aircraft or components
• NTSB and ICAO Safety Summaries and Recommendations
• Tape Recordings of "all" communications relevant to the accident flight, (not just the usual 5 minutes before and 5 minutes after contact with the accident aircraft)

Just aint gonna happen!

http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181884-1.html?redirected=1

 

[atthelake]

I personally don't mind the images. It is a fact, and I have a feeling it will get worse. I guess I don't possess any feelings?

:hug: :blowkiss:

 

[Intermezzo]

Aren't some of those rebels defectors from the Ukrainian military?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4064836.ece

I don't know but I would not be surprised if a few are.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Right now I think the intelligence being gained around this incident will give us all the real data we need, that being;

• who fired the missile
• where from exactly
• under what directive / motivation
• where / how was this weapon sourced
• who trained the people responsible

I imagine by now most of those questions have been answered and there will be a sort of inquest describing what led up to this terrible event.

I don't think we really need to look at the evidence at the crash site to do this effectively.

 

[Intermezzo]

So there have only been 2 Americans confirmed?

I have read that there was 1 American confirmed...

 

[drsleuth]

This whole situation is doing my head in............hell on earth.

I can not imagine my relative lying in a field on the other side of the world.......the unspeakable torture those familys & friends are going thru & will continue to go thru.......there are no words.......

This is the truth of what we are dealing with....

snippets from this article

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/chaos-at-malaysian-airlines-crash-site-leaves-victims-by-the

“I will let none of you pass! I have an order!” he shouted. Motley gunmen in ragtag uniforms flanked out alongside him. A lanky rebel in a beekeeping suit who reeked of alcohol folded his automatic rifle in his arms. The observers wandered out, then meekly retreated.

the crash site remains a hideous mess

Nobody seemed to know where the bodies would be taken. Ukraine wants them stored 185 miles north in Kharkiv, the only nearby city with the facilities to take them, but claims that rebels have already spirited 38 corpses to their nearby stronghold in Donetsk and conducted their own autopsies.

Local firemen and police officers, some of whom had clearly spent the night drinking moonshine, listlessly shoveled body parts into black garbage bags and left them to broil at the roadside.

Ragtag militiamen with no obvious leadership barred observers and reporters from the field. The plane’s black boxes have vanished.

Observers from the OSCE, a European security agency whose 57 member states include Russia, were denied full access to the site for the second day running when they drove up on Saturday. Rebels, led by “Grumpy,” said they had orders not to let them pass that came straight from the so-called prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, a Russian named Alexander Borodai.

Ukraine says that the rebels are forcing the rescuers to work for them under gunpoint, but the men seemed unperturbed by their presence.

Many cameramen stood amid wreckage from the fuselage to get shots, nearly stepping on a hand that plaintively stretched out from under it.

Grumpy, the armed men’s leader, said no investigators or observers would be allowed until the “experts” — who, as provincial police officers, would have no training in handling air disasters or other crime scenes of such magnitude — had completed their work.

One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees eventually looked at the back of his “Donetsk Prosecutor’s Office” badge and found the prosecutor’s name, Ramil Khalikov. Khalikov was nowhere to be seen.

“There’s a grandmother. A body landed right in her bed. She says ‘please take this body away’. But we cannot tamper with the site,” Borodai said, according to Reuters. “Bodies of innocent people are lying out in the heat.”

None of this will go any way to assuaging the agony of the 298 victims’ relatives, powerless as their loved ones’ bodies lie for a third day in a far-flung field, baked into the asphalt and rotting into the ground. Rebels have gone through their things and piled them in a corner at the edge of the site. Ukraine claims that some of them looted the victims’ credit cards and attempted to make purchases with them.

Nearer to the village, a cross bears a sign, “HEAVEN HELP US.” An empty plastic two-liter bottle lies by the engine wreckage. Amid the stench of death all around, you can smell the alcohol. The bottle looks new.



It's just all too much to take in, unimaginable .................

:tears::tears::tears: for the 298 people who so tragically lost there life ( & hoping they had no idea of there fate ) & the family who are going thru hell..............

 

[Mrs G Norris]

[h=1]MH17 and its aftermath: 'ordinary Russians are horrified and frightened'[/h]
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...scow-russia-putin-ukraine-conspiracy-theories

 

[BJsleuth]

Is that right though? 100 + AIDS delegates on their way to Melbourne + 100 Unicef Volunteers?? I'm wondering if she's not mixing the two groups up?

I did hear on the radio there were only 6 AIDS delegates onboard.

http://m.heraldsun.com.au/news/six-...994175207?nk=7807e4bbce6ed914b47ff19d480d1b41