Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[Mrs G Norris]

Why are they playing silly buggers with the black boxes? What on earth do they want? Do you want blood, here have some, what is it .. do you want money? Just tell us what you want, then we can shame you some more for wanting to barter over the black boxes. If they are not here and all this was a diversionary tactic to keep us in one spot then fine, go on your merry way, have your black boxes .. we can live without them, we don't need black boxes to determine what happened here, and we'll all talk about this again when we see you in The Hague.

 

[geevee]

Paul Sonne @PaulSonne · 5m

Borodai walks into hotel lobby with a pistol in one hand a cigarette in the other to negotiate with the Malaysians here #MH17

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne

Just jumping off your post Dr. Know...

What's to negotiate? This isn't finders keepers - return property that doesn't belong to you! Since I do believe that Russia has had their hands on them, either they found nothing to incriminate themselves or they removed it, I'm really not sure how much investigative benefit they'll be now, but they need to be turned over to the owners like everything else connected with this disaster.

 

[zwiebel]

Civilians?
As in reporters, or residents, or what? lease:

I saw one photo posted that seemed obviously (to me) a local, middle aged lady lying dead.

 

[kimi_SFC]

I saw one photo posted that seemed obviously (to me) a local, middle aged lady lying dead.

:cry:

:rose:


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[Mrs G Norris]

One thing that has changed for me, the Ukraine's have lost the moral upper hand they had .. bombing the town where the train and journalists were, and hitting civilian targets is appalling and shows that they are no better than the rebels in my mind, no wonder we have stayed well out of this conflict .. you have Putin and the rebels on one side, and you have the Ukraine's with their neo-nazi affiliations on the other. Yes, let's just get what we can from the crash site and remain as safe as we can then back away slowly. Both sides as bad as each other, let the people decide what they want.

 

[MsFacetious]

So they are 46 minutes late on the original handover, correct?
But 14 minutes from the "new" handover time, correct?

 

[zwiebel]

Australian ambassador Julia Bishop at the UN meeting.

'Bishop continues: "We owe it to the victims and their families to determine what happened and who is responsible. It is despicable that this access is not being provided. It is an affront to the victims … all states, all groups must cooperate."

"We have an overriding objective to restore dignity respect and justice to those killed on MH17 … We will not rest until we bring them home." '

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/mh17-disaster-ukraine-obama-live-updates

 

[Bravo]

Why are they playing silly buggers with the black boxes? What on earth do they want? Do you want blood, here have some, what is it .. do you want money? Just tell us what you want, then we can shame you some more for wanting to barter over the black boxes. If they are not here and all this was a diversionary tactic to keep us in one spot then fine, go on your merry way, have your black boxes .. we can live without them, we don't need black boxes to determine what happened here, and we'll all talk about this again when we see you in The Hague.

Agree. Likely nothing on the black boxes anyway. It's the point. Power and control. IMO.

 

[zwiebel]

So they are 46 minutes late on the original handover, correct?
But 14 minutes from the "new" handover time, correct?

Correct. It's just gone quarter to 10pm.

 

[Isabelle]

Wonder why CNN is saying nothing about black box turnover??

 

[Isabelle]

11 minutes to go!

 

[kimi_SFC]

Jumping off zwiebel's post:

@ShaunWalker7 retweeted:

(@euromaidan) tweeted at 12:20pm - 21 Jul 14:

#US Amb. Samantha Power looks on as #Russia's Vitaly Churkin votes in favor of #UN resolution on #MH17 investigation. https://pic.twitter.com/w0WJgvMsQL
(https://twitter.com/euromaidan/status/491301778386718720)


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[gia2]

With all due respect, I've seen it posted that aviation and weapons experts might be able to deduce the location of the missile strike based on the injuries of the passengers (relative to their seating location). I posted a tweet and twitpic about this subject upthread.

IMO, the longer the victims are not in the custody of authorities who have the ability to perform the proper forensic analysis, all evidence is subject to deterioration, contamination, tampering, etc.

As long as there is any dispute as to who fired what (and although we may have a clear idea here at WS, the world as a whole is not in agreement), the evidence is the only thing that is irrefutable.

Sadly, I worry these delays may be happening for a reason. If that's the case, it bears the questions: Why? What is there to hide? And who has the motive to do so?

:moo:


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I do understand that it may be possible to determine where on the plane the missile hit, based on the damage to the bodies. I have discussed this myself actually. The thing is, the bodies alone will not provide this information, the wreckage of the plane and the wreckage sites will provide a lot of insight into this. So allowing the bodies to decompose before moving them was not going to cover much up at all.

They would have known they were under the scrutiny of the world. They have to have known that returning the bodies would be a priority and any delay would cause outrage. So, there would have to be a very, very important reason to delay it. What I am wondering is, could the bodies really provide such crucial information that would not be found by any other means through the inspection of the site. I just don’t think there is (but I’m no expert, hence asking for your views).
Wouldn’t it make more sense for there to be a ban on reporters? Or prevent some areas of the site from being photographed? Reporters seemed to be there very quickly, I’m not sure important parts of the wreckage could have been identified and removed by then.

(BTW, my tone can sometimes seem quite pointed or argumentative. As an academic, my default position in any debate is to play the devils advocate, challenge everything and try and see if things stand up to scrutiny. It doesn’t mean I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I like the same being done to any of my opinions or throughts! )

 

[zwiebel]

'20:48: The UN resolution, proposed by Australia, calls for a "full, thorough and independent international investigation" into the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Hrabove. All 15 council members voted in favour.'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28399670

ETA: Not my typo. Don't know what hrabove's supposed to be.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Russians Scramble To Edit Wikipedia So The Kremlin's Claims Make Sense
16:24 (GMT)

As we reported earlier, the Kremlin now says that flight MH17 was "tailed" by a Ukrainian military Su-25 aircraft during much of its flight over Ukraine. As we pointed out, this claim may be physically impossible since Russia says that the Su-25 was consistently between 3 and 5 kilometers away from MH17, but the Su-25 can't fly high enough to have this claim make any sense.

Well, today the Su-25 has been given some significant upgrades -- at least on Wikipedia. Several IP addresses that track back to central Moscow appear to have edited the maximum altitude of the Su-25 from 7 kilometers to 10 kilometers to match the flight path of MH17.

From liveblog day 154: http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-154-heavy-fighting-in-donetsk/

I love these wikipedia edits .. Russia proves once again it has a lot to hide, and is lying about Ukraine shooting down MH17 this shows their guilt more than anything. He must be scared of losing the support of his people, since the rest of the world can see the truth, makes sense, economic sanctions followed by hardship, because of his support for the rebels, and shooting down a commercial jet and bringing shame upon his country .. wonder when the next elections are.

ETA: Election Day will be held on September 14, 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Election_Day,_2014 but next Presidential election not until 2018 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_presidential_election,_2018

 

[Isabelle]

5 minutes and counting!

 

[zwiebel]

Ahhh! They've put the handover back to 11.30pm! It's only 10pm now.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristopherJM

 

[Isabelle]

Ahhh! They've put the handover back to 11.30pm! It's only 10pm now.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChristopherJM

What is it that they want for the black boxes?!

 

[zwiebel]

I'm outraged. Don't know how all those people waiting there for hours and hours must feel.

 

[MsFacetious]

Of course they have moved it back.
I mean they had their dinner but what about desert? And a drink after dinner? And a smoke??
I mean... they need a couple hours for that at least. :sigh: