MaM a Year Later - Reconstruct the Crime

[Limaes]

Why is calling a witness 'scraping the barrel'?

I'm more interested in finding out what happened to Teresa than anything else.

This witness said nothing to prove Teresa left that afternoon. IIRC this witness had JB stuttering on several occasions.

 

[proudfootz]

This witness said nothing to prove Teresa left that afternoon. IIRC this witness had JB stuttering on several occasions.

I don't care who (allegedly) has a stutter - it is irrelevant to solving this crime.

If Teresa's car leaves Avery Salvage about the time we would expect, then it does seem to punch a rather largish hole in imaginative speculations that Teresa never left ASY.

 

[proudfootz]

Which officers are you referring to?

In case you haven't heard, Steven was suing police in the wrongful conviction he endured.

In fact, a couple of the police who 'just happened' to find key bits of evidence were deposed in this lawsuit.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/03/09/avery-lawsuit-video-lt-james-lenk/81443810/

https://www.bustle.com/articles/132...er-has-the-officer-seeing-renewed-allegations

Quite a 'coincidence' these two are at the center of an investigation into alleged crimes by the fellow who is suing their organization.

"Just how many coincidences are you willing to believe and still be able to call yourselves reasonable people?"

 

[Limaes]

I don't care who (allegedly) has a stutter - it is irrelevant to solving this crime.

I never said he has a stutter. It is about the why, not the who.

If Teresa's car leaves Avery Salvage about the time we would expect, then it does seem to punch a rather largish hole in imaginative speculations that Teresa never left ASY.

BBM

Looks like his testimony hasn't convinced you either.

 

[dexter75]

Good morning everyone!

I can only post how I feel after reading about psychopath rapists and murderers for over three decades.

First, while some seem dismissive of him dousing his own pet with oil and setting it on fire as benign and just being a teenager, I do not dismiss such horrid actions. I have never known a single teen or adult for that matter that had the capability in their hearts to do such a cruel sadistic thing. It isn't normal behavior for anyone to do but it is a trait many psychopaths possess. It showed even then he had a depraved dark heart with little or no value for other living things. I also recall when they searched the junkyard they found several other bones. I don't think his pet cat was his first animal victim either or his last. He seemed to draw pleasure from doing this or he simply wouldn't/couldn't have done it. IMO He also seems to like fires and believes/uses fires to destroy things or in this case, TH. Another trait of a psychopath.

We could say the same thing about every psychopath murderer. The why would he/she do this or do it this way... comes up in every case when one of them is caught. Imo, we do not process thoughts like a psychopath does. They always think they are far smarter than they ever are even those who aren't highly intelligent. We then try to apply our own rational thoughts to what they do and what they did and why they did it the certain way they did their crimes. Many times we often say 'but why would he/she do that?' The answer most often is we don't know. Rapists and murderers are filled with irrational thoughts and trying to apply our own rational thinking to something far from society norms just isn't doable. We will never fully understand why murderers do what they do and in the manner they carried out each one.

As far as Auto Trader why would it be necessary for him to block his number then? He wasn't telling them TH was to meet Steven Avery at the junkyard. He wanted it on record she was to meet his sister. He left the impression he wasn't even going to be a part of the transaction and TH would be meeting with his sister. That is the very reason he said all of this to AT. They would relay the message telling her she would be meeting a female at the junkyard. Why would he lie about his sister wanting to sell her van when she did not want to do so? Why would he set this all up when he knew his sister would be away from the premises when TH arrived expecting to meet his sister? The entire thing was a lie. She wasn't selling her van and he knew it all along but it was a way to get 'that girl' to come to the junkyard where HE would be the only one waiting for her.

I absolutely do believe he felt he was owed a rape. After all he had already spent 18 years in prison for one he didn't do. He was known to be violent against women and I think deep down he hated women in general and he seethed with hate during the time he was locked up. I think he sat there for hours in his cell thinking of ways to murder a female if he ever got out.

If you look up the profile of a psychopath you will see one of their traits shows they are very vindictive revengeful individuals. Even if they don't become murderers and are highly successful professionally they will crush anyone and everyone in the ground to get to the top. Feelings for others never matters to the psychopath. They feel they are entitled to do whatever is necessary to get even when they feel they have been wronged. Its all about getting even or getting ahead and they will do anything... even murder to obtain that goal.

As far as why would he spend his money on these kind of tests if he was guilty is simple to me. What does he have to lose by doing so? He isn't the first defendant who has professed they were innocent who have tied up the courts for years and having other tests run only to be found out they were really guilty.

He wouldn't have to go to a bar and take a chance of being seen. This way he could slowly begin to lure his targeted victim to his own comfort zone.....the place and layout he knew better than anyone... without ever stepping foot outside of the junkyard.

He was deceitful that day. He lied and said TH would be meeting with his sister. He lied when he told AT that his sister wanted to sell her van when that wasn't the truth. He was deceitful when THs number was the only number he blocked twice that day when he called her.

Thanks for replying Dexter.

Thank you❤
I appreciate it very much! Obviously I don't agree with everything here, probably much the same as you reading through my posts thinking " I'm sure that's not how it happened "😉
I love to look at others perspective. At times it can be very interesting and ( dare I say )..thought provoking.
I thank you, not only for weighing in, but for being so darn sweet!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[proudfootz]

I never said he has a stutter. It is about the why, not the who.

I'm always happy to entertain diagnoses by random posters on the internet!

Looks like his testimony hasn't convinced you either.

Unlike some, I am willing to entertain doubts and not adopt a Manichean view of things.

We have evidence from witnesses that she did leave. I haven't seen any reason to doubt them.

 

[proudfootz]

Just because case enthusiasts don't understand something, doesn't mean it is unreliable imo.

The defense attempted to block the State from testing the blood so therefore money is no excuse. If they did not perform those tests, SA would have successfully appealed on the grounds of insufficient counsel because his own defense attorneys were willing to sit on the evidence that they were claiming would prove his innocence.

The defense tried to keep pseudo-science out of the case.

Remember, it was Culhane's practice of 'hair analysis' pseudo-science that helped wrongfully convict Steven in the Beerntsen case.

Just because pseudo-science gives some the results that fits their prejudices is no reason anyone else need accept it.

At the time of the trial, there is no reliable test for EDTA - and there still isn't.

 

[Limaes]

In case you haven't heard, Steven was suing police in the wrongful conviction he endured.

In fact, a couple of the police who 'just happened' to find key bits of evidence were deposed in this lawsuit.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2016/03/09/avery-lawsuit-video-lt-james-lenk/81443810/

https://www.bustle.com/articles/132...er-has-the-officer-seeing-renewed-allegations

Quite a 'coincidence' these two are at the center of an investigation into alleged crimes by the fellow who is suing their organization.

"Just how many coincidences are you willing to believe and still be able to call yourselves reasonable people?"

Imo, this is an example of dramatisation. AC & JL's testimony was bolstering SA's case, not hindering it. AC could have kept quiet about that phone call, but he didn't. Imo, it proves that he is not the corrupt person he is accused of.

What part of their depositions leads you to believe that they were angry with SA?

 

[Limaes]

The defense tried to keep pseudo-science out of the case.

Remember, it was Culhane's practice of 'hair analysis' pseudo-science that helped wrongfully convict Steven in the Beerntsen case.

Just because pseudo-science gives some the results that fits their prejudices is no reason anyone else need accept it.

At the time of the trial, there is no reliable test for EDTA - and there still isn't.

No, the defense wanted to walk into the courtroom with the blood vial and packaging and give the same bs story to the jury that they did for the cameras on MaM. Imo, they didn't want any pesky scientific testing blowing it out of the water like it did and continues to do.

How did you come to the opinion that the test is not reliable?

 

[Madeleine74]

Culhane's work and testimony also helped wrongfully convict him in the first place in 1985 IIRC..

This is 1980s and DNA testing was not yet available. Culhane did hair comparison tests from a rape kit from PB and compared that to known standards. The only scientific comparison that could be made was hair magnified and the conclusion was either "consistent" or "inconsistent" between 2 different hairs being observed under high magnification. It's what she had in terms of technology at the time. Two hairs can appear consistent under magnification (a valid visual test) but not be from the same person (known only through DNA testing).

It was the direct evidence, which is often the most problematic in cases of wrongful conviction, that nailed SA incorrectly--specifically the incorrect ID of SA as the assailant by PB. Without that eyewitness testimony from PB, he would not have been convicted IMO.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/garrett/innocence/avery.pdf

 

[proudfootz]

Imo, this is an example of dramatisation. AC & JL's testimony was bolstering SA's case, not hindering it. AC could have kept quiet about that phone call, but he didn't. Imo, it proves that he is not the corrupt person he is accused of.

What part of their depositions leads you to believe that they were angry with SA?

I'm curious what evidence that the testimony was somehow provoking Steven to commit a senseless and out of character crime.

Yet somehow, Steven sat in prison for an extra year or so while no action was taken to get this innocent man out.

Colborn doesn't write a report about this phone call until the day after Steven is actually released from prison.

What a stand up guy!

 

[proudfootz]

No, the defense wanted to walk into the courtroom with the blood vial and packaging and give the same bs story to the jury that they did for the cameras on MaM. Imo, they didn't want any pesky scientific testing blowing it out of the water like it did and continues to do.

How did you come to the opinion that the test is not reliable?

The fact that it is not well tested.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...verymaking-a-murderercase-a-lot-has-been.html

It might be different if this was a known quantity instead of a procedure with no reliable track record.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Yes, the defense didn't have much by way of resources compared to the State (which apparently spent in excess of $2 million prosecuting this case).

Why didn't the defense hire experts to debunk every unsubstantiated claim against Steven? They did not have the luxury of billing the taxpayers for work related to the trial.

BBM

What unsubstantiated claims? If the State uses an expert witness to present evidence to the jury that would be a substantiated claim IMO.

 

[Madeleine74]

.
I think you have to add the context here.

The DNA did exonerate him for the PB rape, however~~that came AFTER GA admitted someone was in prison for a rape they didn't commit.

Culhane has no bearing on a witness who comes forward (or not). She has been described as lacking character and is called "a joke," so that's the discussion point. GA confessing does not factor into this and there's no context that needs to be added.

A DNA test is either valid or invalid. It either nets a result or it's inconclusive. DNA testing did not yet exist at the time of the PB rape trial. Can't hold a serologist responsible for technology not existing yet. When she tested the blood of SA for his exoneration she got a result and that result was compared to evidence gathered in the PB rape kit (a hair in which DNA could be extracted). The testing showed the truth because the technology existed in which to get to a far greater level of scientific certainty. It was, I believe, what freed SA from prison.

 

[Limaes]

I'm curious what evidence that the testimony was somehow provoking Steven to commit a senseless and out of character crime.

Yet somehow, Steven sat in prison for an extra year or so while no action was taken to get this innocent man out.

Colborn doesn't write a report about this phone call until the day after Steven is actually released from prison.

What a stand up guy!

The only reason we're discussing this is because AC did not keep quiet like he could have done. Nothing you have claimed is pointing to misconduct or corruption by AC.

I disagree about an "out of character crime". He was also convicted of his crime against SM remember. Add that to all the other complaints by females in his life and it is very much his character to violently force himself on females.

 

[proudfootz]

BBM

What unsubstantiated claims? If the State uses an expert witness to present evidence to the jury that would be a substantiated claim IMO.

Is there any evidence presented that Steven never used *67 before October 31st. 2005?

Yet there are some who seem to use this as a jumping off point for their imaginative speculations.

 

[Madeleine74]

If we're going to speculate about how people might feel - do you think the depositions with more and more evidence of malfeasance by the police made the cops angrier and angrier at Steven, whom they falsely convicted?

Surely this had an effect on them.

??

During a witness's deposition only the witness, his/her attorney, and the plaintiff's attorneys and plaintiff is in the room (aside from reporter or videographer). No witness is privy to another witness's deposition, they don't get to watch, they don't see the transcript or get to see the video. Only SA as the plaintiff and the attorneys got to see and hear it all as it was occurring.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Is there any evidence presented that Steven never used *67 before October 31st. 2005?

Yet there are some who seem to use this as a jumping off point for their imaginative speculations.

I've posted up thread that the defense had access to all of the phone records via discovery and if those records show that Steven Avery used *67 in the past they would have certainly presented that evidence to the jury. Since they didn't, I believe that there is no record showing SA used *67 on any kind of regular or occasional basis before TH was killed.

The defense didn't need to pay an expert to look at those phone records. They looked at them themselves for no added cost. JMO

 

[proudfootz]

The only reason we're discussing this is because AC did not keep quiet like he could have done. Nothing you have claimed is pointing to misconduct or corruption by AC.

We can always resort to the 'complete incompetence' defense for AC.

An innocent person sits in jail far longer than necessary - for a crime he should never have been charged with due to the apparent grudge this police organization exhibits toward Steven Avery.

It's a pity that 'coincidentally' these new charges against Steven stopped the wheels of justice in the wrongful conviction suit.

I disagree about an "out of character crime". He was also convicted of his crime against SM remember. Add that to all the other complaints by females in his life and it is very much his character to violently force himself on females.

There is a world of difference between someone being angry at someone who is maliciously slandering them and attacking a random person with no motive.

Any number of unproven claims against Steven add up to a lot of unsubstantiated gossip - hardly the sort of thing a reasonable person would suggest should result in a prison sentence.

 

[Madeleine74]

Is there any evidence presented that Steven never used *67 before October 31st. 2005?

Yet there are some who seem to use this as a jumping off point for their imaginative speculations.

The question that's been posed before: did SA's defense team introduce any evidence showing SA did use or had a pattern of using *67 before October 31, 2005? The state is not required to prove SA always or never did use *67 prior, so I'm not sure why the expectation that they should have presented evidence to weaken their own argument exists.

No speculation is needed. The phone call evidence on October 31, 2005 is what it is.