Man in Coma 'heard everything'

[Hbgchick]

For someone who doesn't think we can have another Terri thread, you sure are trying to turn this one into one. I'm not going to help you with that - doesn't seem like what the mods would want, and it's not appropriate. I'll just leave it at that I disagree with very nearly everything you are saying, most especially the things you claim are facts, and stop there.

That makes two of us.

 

[lynie]

and three here...makes me too cranky... :croc:

BYE!!! lynie

 

[dakini]

and three here...makes me too cranky... :croc:

BYE!!! lynie

and four.

 

[lostfaith]

and four.

and five!

 

[SieSie]

Make that six. :doh:

 

[LinasK]

Doctors who weren't on the payroll for this political euthanasia project (Terri Schiavo) kept repeating that she was NOT in a PVS, some of whom had personally examined her and some who'd watched video's. Those of us who also saw the video's know "seeing is believing". She was answering her dad, right after the feeding tube was removed for the last time. I saw and heard her myself, no mistake. You don't even have to be a professional to get it.

There's been corruption in all fields, always, "rotten apples in every barrel", and we just need to use some common sense, like the kid in "The Emporer's New Clothes", a kid who wasn't old enough to know about any "party line", just blurted out the whole darned truth, the Emporer wasn't wearing any. He'd been hoodwinked by weavers who claimed the cloth was so fine it was invisible to all but the most astute. He didn't want to admit to inferiority, so he pretended he could see cloth.

Do you remember that it took a lot longer to get this "medical examiner's report" than they'd promised? Think what you want, but I suspect they were dickering about the price, to say her brain was atrophied and liquified.

To keep from maybe getting sued, we have to always say, "Just my opinion", so there's that. Do we want to be suckers just because it's "politically correct", as in the Emporer story? Your choice.

See the earlier definition of PVS someone gave about, about PVS often following a coma, the person retains their normal sleep pattern, evidently hears and processes everything though unable to communicate well enough or at all. Honest doctors said there's new descriptions, and Terri wasn't in the lowest one, may even have been at 3, that they'd have to do testing to find out exactly. The euthanasia ones were using outdated criteria, and expect us to fall for it too.

We just do not have the right to decide on someone else's quality of life. Doctors may think they do, according to a TV show I saw recently, but have to use some drug that's more painful than a detectable one. He was convicted of 2nd degree, I think. I believe that's maybe "manslaughter".

So many couples kill each other, you wouldn't think they'd ever leave it up to the spouse, or families either, who just can't really know. They may not be able to afford care or may not want to be bothered, so they'd say he or she wouldn't want to live like this. I don't claim to know what should be done but I do think people rationalize too much and there should be safeguards. I'm on some mailing list-news alerts about this sort of thing since Terri's case, and believe there've been several who've recovered from PVS. And there's always a first time for everything. If I'm mistaken and it hasn't been happening, we have no way of knowing it couldn't ever happen. We're learning new ways to be healthier and someone just might recover.

Terri clearly said no, when her dad asked did her leg hurt, and one or two other things. Probably they jerked the tube out w/out anesthetic and that was hurting, plus she probably knew it was her life source. I firmly believe she would have recovered. Several people took 20 yrs, and I believe it was said they had PVS. The articles were speculating Terri might do the same. I may have printed out some, but as you might guess I have such a stack of printouts it'd take too long to find them. I think minds are already made up anyway and I'd be wasting my time and effort.

Eagle, I'm in complete agreement with you on this one!:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[LinasK]

how those people can make so many character assasinations and be so medically knowledgable without more than an high school biology class :banghead:

lynie

Lynie, I am medically qualified to have assessed Terri Schiavo's rehab potential, as I have a Master's Degree in Communicative Disorders (Speech Pathology) and worked for 13 years doing speech,language, and swallowing therapy with head injured adults. From what I know of her case, I strongly believe Terri Schiavo could have made a good recovery, resumed eating solid food, and communicated to some degree given the chance- which she never was given.

 

[Eagle1]

Thanks for verification from a qualified expert.

The murder of Terri S. was such an injustice! We can't let it keep happening.

About families who can't afford the maintain the person, Linask, is there a solution other than what they did to Terri?

BTW, folks, I was looking through my bookmarks for something else and found the "The Star Online" reported on the Italian man. It probably came also from Topix.net which is still emailing followup notices about the case.

 

[LinasK]

Thanks for verification from a qualified expert.

The murder of Terri S. was such an injustice! We can't let it keep happening.

About families who can't afford the maintain the person, Linask, is there a solution other than what they did to Terri?

If you're referring to Terri's care & rehab, yes the state would take over, in California it's MediCal, elsewhere it's called MediCaid. So her tube feedings and nursing care would be paid for by that and for therapy purposes she'd be Medicare B/MediCal and entitled to at least some trial therapy...

P.S. Eagle, since she exhibited ability to swallow her own saliva (evidence of a good, strong swallow reflex), I believe she could have been completely weaned from her feeding tube and eating on her own.

 

[nanandjim]

...Terri's were more than willing to take her...

This was a tough case. I don't know all of the details, but I wish that Terri had been turned over to her parents at the beginning and given the best shot at recovery. Terri was blessed to have such a loving family, yet cursed to have such an uncaring husband.

Because Terri was so young when this event happened, I do not believe that she told her husband her wishes, as he said. You will never get me to believe that MS didn't have ulterior motives and that he didn't want Terri to recover for some reason.

 

[Details]

You should learn all the details before you make assumptions. There's a huge amount to this case - all the possibilities were tried; the people judging her in PVS were neutral parties; and swallowing saliva, any competent medical person will tell you does not at all indicate an ability to swallow food. In fact, a few incompetent nurses attempts to make her swallow food are probably what gave her the aspiration pnuemonia that showed up on the autopsy.

Oh, yes, and her parents did have her in their care at one point in time - they gave up rapidly. She had years of every attempt at rehab being made. We just came in at the end, and were only told part of the story in an attempt to get sympathy.

 

[Hbgchick]

Lynie, I am medically qualified to have assessed Terri Schiavo's rehab potential, as I have a Master's Degree in Communicative Disorders (Speech Pathology) and worked for 13 years doing speech,language, and swallowing therapy with head injured adults. From what I know of her case, I strongly believe Terri Schiavo could have made a good recovery, resumed eating solid food, and communicated to some degree given the chance- which she never was given.

Could you please share what you know of her case? I mean, in addition to what has been shared in the media?

 

[Details]

And I'd like to hear the swallowing saliva bit expained, because that is not true - not just from what I've heard from plenty of medical professionals, but also from personal experience - my grandfather who nearly died of pnuemonia, and who now cannot swallow, other than saliva. He's awake, walking around, talking, living at home with my grandma, but he has to eat through a stomach tube because he cannot swallow - could not be trained to swallow - and he's not even a PVS - his brain is intact, not fluid.

He says he misses beer the most.

 

[Hbgchick]

And I'd like to hear the swallowing saliva bit expained, because that is not true - not just from what I've heard from plenty of medical professionals, but also from personal experience - my grandfather who nearly died of pnuemonia, and who now cannot swallow, other than saliva. He's awake, walking around, talking, living at home with my grandma, but he has to eat through a stomach tube because he cannot swallow - could not be trained to swallow - and he's not even a PVS - his brain is intact, not fluid.

He says he misses beer the most.

Oh MY!! So sorry to hear about your grandfather! As much as I like to eat and drink I don't know if I could survive something like that! Wow, he must be a tough cookie...good for him. Just the thought of no more beer! Whew. Tell him I, and my husband... :clap: :clap: :clap: him.


And LinasK, forgive me - and I honestly mean no offense - but a Master's degree is not a Doctorate. 13 years experience is commendable, but do you REALLY feel that you are "medically qualified" to diagnose someone in PVS? If it were me or a member of my family I think I'd rather go with the opinion of the physician.

 

[Details]

Oh MY!! So sorry to hear about your grandfather! As much as I like to eat and drink I don't know if I could survive something like that! Wow, he must be a tough cookie...good for him. Just the thought of no more beer! Whew. Tell him I, and my husband... :clap: :clap: :clap: him.


And LinasK, forgive me - and I honestly mean no offense - but a Master's degree is not a Doctorate. 13 years experience is commendable, but do you REALLY feel that you are "medically qualified" to diagnose someone in PVS? If it were me or a member of my family I think I'd rather go with the opinion of the physician.

Yeah, he was quite the tough guy - the pnuemonia nearly did him in - double pnuemonia, some coma time, lots of nights where the doctors flat out told the family he wasn't expected to survive until morning. The inability to swallow without aspirating was something that they took awhile to figure out, caused him some setbacks - they'd give him something to drink, and next, he'd be worse. He was in the hospital for months because of that mistake.

All these very reputable and expert doctors, with good reputations, and until a certain group started their propaganda, no hint of any connection to any form of the kill them all euthanasia strawman - the reputable doctors who saw her all say the same thing, no matter who they were paid by. But with a sad family and propaganda and outright lies people figure that without even seeing the patient, the highly biased, anti-euthanasia doctors and nurses can diagnose her better than people who actually went in the same room with her. I'm sympathetic to her family - they got fooled by some quacks and a very sad condition that make it so easy to fool yourself into believing there is hope. But an awful lot of people who had the resources to know better also let themselves be fooled (governor, Congress, media, president) or just used this for political grandstanding.

 

[Hbgchick]

Yeah, he was quite the tough guy - the pnuemonia nearly did him in - double pnuemonia, some coma time, lots of nights where the doctors flat out told the family he wasn't expected to survive until morning. The inability to swallow without aspirating was something that they took awhile to figure out, caused him some setbacks - they'd give him something to drink, and next, he'd be worse. He was in the hospital for months because of that mistake.

All these very reputable and expert doctors, with good reputations, and until a certain group started their propaganda, no hint of any connection to any form of the kill them all euthanasia strawman - the reputable doctors who saw her all say the same thing, no matter who they were paid by. But with a sad family and propaganda and outright lies people figure that without even seeing the patient, the highly biased, anti-euthanasia doctors and nurses can diagnose her better than people who actually went in the same room with her. I'm sympathetic to her family - they got fooled by some quacks and a very sad condition that make it so easy to fool yourself into believing there is hope. But an awful lot of people who had the resources to know better also let themselves be fooled (governor, Congress, media, president) or just used this for political grandstanding.

Good for Granddad! :clap:

Totally agreed Details. What's ironic - if you look back through this thread - the "Schiavo supporters" (for lack of a better term) are just as tenacious as the Schiavos themselves, they just WON'T let go, even after the poor woman is buried. They'll take any opportunity to turn it into another debate, even though it has been proven that she could have NEVER recovered. Sad.

 

[LinasK]

swallowing saliva, any competent medical person will tell you does not at all indicate an ability to swallow food.

Details, don't tell me my field:razz: , I left because of a lack of funding of therapy, NOT because I was an incompetent dysphagia therapist. A strong swallow reflex is highly indicative of the ability to swallow solid food. In 13 years, I have weaned many patients completely off feeding tubes!

 

[LinasK]

And I'd like to hear the swallowing saliva bit expained, because that is not true - not just from what I've heard from plenty of medical professionals, but also from personal experience - my grandfather who nearly died of pnuemonia, and who now cannot swallow, other than saliva. He's awake, walking around, talking, living at home with my grandma, but he has to eat through a stomach tube because he cannot swallow - could not be trained to swallow - and he's not even a PVS - his brain is intact, not fluid.

He says he misses beer the most.

Your grandfather may have other reasons beyond his ability to swallow saliva as to why he has to have a G-Tube, I don't have his medical background. Your grandfather is a different person, with a different medical background than Terri Schiavo.

 

[LinasK]

Oh MY!! So sorry to hear about your grandfather! As much as I like to eat and drink I don't know if I could survive something like that! Wow, he must be a tough cookie...good for him. Just the thought of no more beer! Whew. Tell him I, and my husband... :clap: :clap: :clap: him.


And LinasK, forgive me - and I honestly mean no offense - but a Master's degree is not a Doctorate. 13 years experience is commendable, but do you REALLY feel that you are "medically qualified" to diagnose someone in PVS? If it were me or a member of my family I think I'd rather go with the opinion of the physician.

I'm fully qualified to assess Terri's communication and swallowing potential, and YES I did have to study brain anatomy and physiology as part of my curriculum! F.Y.I., the physicians rely on the therapists judgement as to whether or not to authorize orders for therapy.

 

[LinasK]

Could you please share what you know of her case? I mean, in addition to what has been shared in the media?

I have ascertained that Terri could track with her eyes, follow simple commands, squeeze hands to indicate yes and no responses, vocalize on command, and swallow her saliva. All of this indicates good rehab potential and she should have been given at least trial therapy in the recent past. No therapy or tests prior to 6 months ago were valid. People can make tremendous spontaneous improvements in brain function even years post- onset. I've worked with those very patients and seen the improvement firsthand years post onset!