Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Shannan Gilbert came out of the ground
was loaded into a morgue mobile
and was driven out of Oak Beach past the press and the
grieving families for the victims of LISK at their ONE YEAR
ANNIVERSARY vigil.

May You Rest In Peace Shannan M. Gilbert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L_YHCmL9EHY#!

 

[Peter Brendt]

But what about Amber who was going to meet a client as per DS' statement? If MBB was snatched from the Port Authority it would be on video. I've been there several times and there are Cameras everywhere. As for MW she may have asked to met at the convenience store or the perp used a side entrance and not the main front one. Most hotels have two or three places to enter. But I will admit there is no guarantee she was meeting someone since she told the person she was with she was going to the store.

ALC and MB are the same problem. We have witnesses basically seeing them going out "somewhere". Nothing after that. So we don't know, whether for example Melissa was snatched on the way to a client, by the client or on the way back. Same with ALC. Can be this or that, so it's too early to dismiss "snatching" or any other approach.
And I doubt, MW slipped out of the backdoor. Wasn't she on the tape leaving through the front door? Of course, I don't know whether the Haupauge Holiday Inn has a back door in the first place.

 

[OnTheCase27]

ALC and MB are the same problem. We have witnesses basically seeing them going out "somewhere". Nothing after that. So we don't know, whether for example Melissa was snatched on the way to a client, by the client or on the way back. Same with ALC. Can be this or that, so it's too early to dismiss "snatching" or any other approach.
And I doubt, MW slipped out of the backdoor. Wasn't she on the tape leaving through the front door? Of course, I don't know whether the Haupauge Holiday Inn has a back door in the first place.

It would seem from their website they have 4. Most Hotels like this here do have 4 exits. One could walk out the front door and around the parking lot. Or simply walked out the front door and to the convenience store exactly as it's stated.

I wasn't saying we should dismiss snatching I just think it would be very hard to "snatch" someone in Grand Central Station. Both a homicidal John and Snatching theory would have holes in it. Could be evolution of the killer or could be different opportunities. To me the perp may have met and established a trust level before. Why in the world would all except MB leave their phone? As an escort that is your lifeline for more money.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It would seem from their website they have 4. Most Hotels like this here do have 4 exits. One could walk out the front door and around the parking lot. Or simply walked out the front door and to the convenience store exactly as it's stated.

I wasn't saying we should dismiss snatching I just think it would be very hard to "snatch" someone in Grand Central Station. Both a homicidal John and Snatching theory would have holes in it. Could be evolution of the killer or could be different opportunities. To me the perp may have met and established a trust level before. Why in the world would all except MB leave their phone? As an escort that is your lifeline for more money.

I was never a friend of the homicidal John theory. It has too many logical glitches in it. You would have the same person calling on the cell phones of all four victims. LE certainly went over that and didn't find anything like that. And we know, from the last phone calls, MBB made, that she wanted to go home. Which is supported by the fact, that her last phone call came from the bus terminal. Even if we construct some theory, she went out from there instead of catching the next bus, to pull another trick, it would be some coincidence if she would have walked then by accident in the same homicidal John, who operated later, in the MW case, in Long Island. But this discussion was led on these threads a dozen times.

 

[OnTheCase27]

I was never a friend of the homicidal John theory. It has too many logical glitches in it. You would have the same person calling on the cell phones of all four victims. LE certainly went over that and didn't find anything like that. And we know, from the last phone calls, MBB made, that she wanted to go home. Which is supported by the fact, that her last phone call came from the bus terminal. Even if we construct some theory, she went out from there instead of catching the next bus, to pull another trick, it would be some coincidence if she would have walked then by accident in the same homicidal John, who operated later, in the MW case, in Long Island. But this discussion was led on these threads a dozen times.

I completely agree there are holes. With the cell phones it's easy to get an unregistered pay as you go phone in the U.S. or disposable cell phones as they call them. So a new one after each victim with no ties to the next phone is not out of the question. The problem I have with snatching again is ALC, She tells DS she's going on a "date" after the guy had called at around 10 p.m. according to AC's sister. So here there is definitely a last john whether he was the perp or not.

 

[LR1]

we don't know what they found when they looked at the calls other than one was registered to MM. it would be good to know what other names he used if any.
as far as snatching goes there's no need to snatch when they come to or go with you willingly. he's no doubt well versed in hooking up with them no need to make it more complicated than it already is.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I completely agree there are holes. With the cell phones it's easy to get an unregistered pay as you go phone in the U.S. or disposable cell phones as they call them. So a new one after each victim with no ties to the next phone is not out of the question. The problem I have with snatching again is ALC, She tells DS she's going on a "date" after the guy had called at around 10 p.m. according to AC's sister. So here there is definitely a last john whether he was the perp or not.

People misunderstand that thing with unregistered phone wrong all the time. The phones are registered, or nobody could phone with them. The only thing that is unregistered or rather faked, is the personal data of the person who bought it. Thus, even an "unregistered" phone is registered enough to be tracked back to where it was bought. Means, if he would have bought all the time new phones in the same shop, LE would have his face by now, and if he used different shops, they would have a limited number of faces (from the security cams in those shops) to eliminate by now. So, at this point, the only thing, that in my opinion actually saves the Homicide John Theory is the assumption of ineptness on the LE's side ... which we must accept as sad fact and therefore as valid argument.

The thing with "last John" is one of those odd mathematical certainties. If someone is or was a prostitute, there is with mathematical certainty a "last John". Even a retired prostitute is with a mathematical certainty connected to a "last John". Only that happened maybe fifty years ago. So yes, there is ALWAYS a last John in a prostitutes life. It's like a last post in a WS'ers life. There is always a last post ... till we post a new one, die form old age of leave. Still, nobody would claim, WS kills people.
The really interesting detail in ALC's case is, the last John never came forward or at least, nobody repeated it. Which is technically impossible after all those phone calls. LE tracks phone records, LE end up with a burner, fine, no reason to keep it secret. Also not for DS. But LE ends up with a real person and we end up with an entirely different situation. LE has to protect the invistegation-drama, no names, no tell, no nothing. And DS would havle also reason to stay quiet and no motive to talk. So, bottom line, if LE would have found this last John, they wouldn't tell us. If not, well, it would be a nice show of "we do what is possible" and the brass couldn't have resisted. So chances are rather, this last John is long identified and dismissed as suspect. But ... ALC leaves the John, takes for example a cab home. Leaves cab, pays driver ... what then? She would have stood late in the night on a rather deserted street. Add this up with a snatcher/stalking type, who had just some hours to prepare in all peace for an ambush before ALC would even make it to the door of her place.

 

[ps149]

we don't know what they found when they looked at the calls other than one was registered to MM. it would be good to know what other names he used if any.
as far as snatching goes there's no need to snatch when they come to or go with you willingly. he's no doubt well versed in hooking up with them no need to make it more complicated than it already is.

Good post. I love where your thinking is on this.

So you are sayin'-

Good lookin' guy makes it look like he randomly is flirting/hitting on on her...

Good lookin' guy has the social interaction skills to move the conversation along further enough to let her feel comfortable enough to reveal her true occupation...

Good lookin' guy with social interaction skills is so devious that he convinces her to to abandon her plans to take a ride with him to earn the wad of cash he flashes from the folds of his wallet.

Very interesting theory. I give it lots of merit. Explains why there was no need for any snatching or abducting.

 

[Peter Brendt]

we don't know what they found when they looked at the calls other than one was registered to MM. it would be good to know what other names he used if any.
as far as snatching goes there's no need to snatch when they come to or go with you willingly. he's no doubt well versed in hooking up with them no need to make it more complicated than it already is.

What makes you think, he is "well versed in hooking up with them"? Because you conclude, then you use your own conclusion as base to prove your conclusion.
One of the things that never fails to amaze me is the number of people, who say, always in unsolved SK cases involving prostitutes, "there is no need ...". Atlantic City, West Mesa, London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Edmonton, Kyoto, Aosta, Baltimore, Atlanta, Capetown, Detroit, ... all over the world, failure begins with the estimation, there is no need. So I beg to differ and to admit, there maybe is a need to leave the rut.

 

[mysterymom7]

Good post. I love where your thinking is on this.

So you are sayin'-

Good lookin' guy makes it look like he randomly is flirting/hitting on on her...

Good lookin' guy has the social interaction skills to move the conversation along further enough to let her feel comfortable enough to reveal her true occupation...

Good lookin' guy with social interaction skills is so devious that he convinces her to to abandon her plans to take a ride with him to earn the wad of cash he flashes from the folds of his wallet.

Very interesting theory. I give it lots of merit. Explains why there was no need for any snatching or abducting.

He doesn't need to be good looking, with the girls' occupation, they weren't looking for a relationship, they were looking for money.

Chances are, he chose prostitutes because those are the only women who would go for him.

 

[OnTheCase27]

People misunderstand that thing with unregistered phone wrong all the time. The phones are registered, or nobody could phone with them. The only thing that is unregistered or rather faked, is the personal data of the person who bought it. Thus, even an "unregistered" phone is registered enough to be tracked back to where it was bought. Means, if he would have bought all the time new phones in the same shop, LE would have his face by now, and if he used different shops, they would have a limited number of faces (from the security cams in those shops) to eliminate by now. So, at this point, the only thing, that in my opinion actually saves the Homicide John Theory is the assumption of ineptness on the LE's side ... which we must accept as sad fact and therefore as valid argument.

The thing with "last John" is one of those odd mathematical certainties. If someone is or was a prostitute, there is with mathematical certainty a "last John". Even a retired prostitute is with a mathematical certainty connected to a "last John". Only that happened maybe fifty years ago. So yes, there is ALWAYS a last John in a prostitutes life. It's like a last post in a WS'ers life. There is always a last post ... till we post a new one, die form old age of leave. Still, nobody would claim, WS kills people.
The really interesting detail in ALC's case is, the last John never came forward or at least, nobody repeated it. Which is technically impossible after all those phone calls. LE tracks phone records, LE end up with a burner, fine, no reason to keep it secret. Also not for DS. But LE ends up with a real person and we end up with an entirely different situation. LE has to protect the invistegation-drama, no names, no tell, no nothing. And DS would havle also reason to stay quiet and no motive to talk. So, bottom line, if LE would have found this last John, they wouldn't tell us. If not, well, it would be a nice show of "we do what is possible" and the brass couldn't have resisted. So chances are rather, this last John is long identified and dismissed as suspect. But ... ALC leaves the John, takes for example a cab home. Leaves cab, pays driver ... what then? She would have stood late in the night on a rather deserted street. Add this up with a snatcher/stalking type, who had just some hours to prepare in all peace for an ambush before ALC would even make it to the door of her place.

They could absolutely track down where the phones were purchased. But say they didn't get around to it and either the place where purchased had no cameras or wiped the hard drive to make room. I completely understand where you are coming from with the "last John" of course they all have seen one. Obviously if there was one in common with all of them LE would be looking at them.

DS did talk about how ALC was "hamming" this John up. Which seems like it wasn't a regular because he was asking about prices. Which does not do well for the LE's theory this is a regular John who get's their trust. The stalking angle is not far fetched except for MBB.

If MBB was in the city for a weekend how would the perp have known she was a prostitute? How does he know where she would be without being in contact with her? If she was in the terminal how does he get her and why does he choose her? Is she alive for weeks like would be plausable with MB? With his calls to MB's sister he degrades MB as a which in turn gives a motive for his crimes. He has a problem with prostitutes. If this is stalking snatching he still has to make contact with the victims prior to killing them in order to know they are prostitutes. I

 

[ps149]

He doesn't need to be good looking, with the girls' occupation, they weren't looking for a relationship, they were looking for money.

Chances are, he chose prostitutes because those are the only women who would go for him.

Except that I would be willing to guess that if we asked MBB's family or friends, they would confirm that MBB did not dress the part of your typical prostitute. So out of a thousand or so young women moving in and out of the bus terminal on a daily basis, it would be highly suspicious in MBB's mind if some random stranger walked up to her knowing that she was a prostitute.

So if he didn't snatch or abduct her, then either he was a previous client (which may or may not have freaked her out a little seeing him at the bus terminal like that) OR, he pretended to not have any prior knowledge of MBB being a prostitute until she volunteered it while being charmed by his conversation skills.

 

[LR1]

What makes you think, he is "well versed in hooking up with them"? Because you conclude, then you use your own conclusion as base to prove your conclusion.
One of the things that never fails to amaze me is the number of people, who say, always in unsolved SK cases involving prostitutes, "there is no need ...". Atlantic City, West Mesa, London, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Edmonton, Kyoto, Aosta, Baltimore, Atlanta, Capetown, Detroit, ... all over the world, failure begins with the estimation, there is no need. So I beg to differ and to admit, there maybe is a need to leave the rut.

How can he not be well versed, hes killed 4 sex workers in three years. and if you subscribe to the single killer theory which I'm leaning towards, you can add two possibly five more over the last 1-1.5 decades, you don't actually think these lets just say four for the sake of this argument, prostitutes were the only ones he has ever hired do you? the simple fact that he's offered just the right incintive for them to let down their guard (leaving their phones behind) in at least two cases that we know of tells me that he is at the least familiar but more probably well versed in the game.


also his looks didn't come to mind with my comment above, although its a intresting theory and should be factored in. my thoughts were just as mysterymom pointed out. these are prostitutes, going somewhere away from prying eyes to exchange sex for money is what they do and they do it willingly.

 

[Peter Brendt]

They could absolutely track down where the phones were purchased. But say they didn't get around to it and either the place where purchased had no cameras or wiped the hard drive to make room. I completely understand where you are coming from with the "last John" of course they all have seen one. Obviously if there was one in common with all of them LE would be looking at them.

DS did talk about how ALC was "hamming" this John up. Which seems like it wasn't a regular because he was asking about prices. Which does not do well for the LE's theory this is a regular John who get's their trust. The stalking angle is not far fetched except for MBB.

If MBB was in the city for a weekend how would the perp have known she was a prostitute? How does he know where she would be without being in contact with her? If she was in the terminal how does he get her and why does he choose her? Is she alive for weeks like would be plausable with MB? With his calls to MB's sister he degrades MB as a which in turn gives a motive for his crimes. He has a problem with prostitutes. If this is stalking snatching he still has to make contact with the victims prior to killing them in order to know they are prostitutes. I

So we have to construct that not one, but the majority of the cell phone shops, this hypothetical homicidal John used, erased the tapes (well video files) or had no cams at all. Not just one. Which is quite some stretch to make the homicidal John work before we even talked about the even bigger holes in the logic coming after the cell phone part. For example, MB was last seen in the Bronx, waiting, that someone came to fetch her. The hypothetical homicidal John or a driver? The number of drivers in this business is maybe big but not infinite. And if you follow a homicidal John theory, you have to make a decision, where his kill zone would be. City, Northern LI or at the Islands? Because whatever you try, you end up always with the same problem, a guy, who makes himself standing out by sometimes importing girls over a long driving distance. Remember how MP reacted when he heard, he is supposed to drive out to OB.

ALC and DS, the never-ending story. Closer reading also reveals, that DS stated, it was a regular, he only raised the prices when she had no mood to go out to him. So he didn't ask for "the prices", he asked, at what price, she would be willing that evening. The rub is, if this guy was a regular, and she maybe had a date with him in the weeks before, a stalker could have known about him too.

The phone calls to MB's sister don't indicate, she was actually that long alive. The indicate only, she was long enough alive to get this information out of her. Minus the information, a stalker would have known anyway.
Well, that "degrading the victim as a " followed by "justifying his crimes", that is so from the text book. Things are not that easy. For example:
The killer also called the pimp. Now, there is no way in hell, you can emotionally torture a pimp. They come with some degree of sociopathic or even psychopathic behavior on their own. And so, the calls are a direct contradiction to what the exactly same text book says (I reference here to the FBI Whitebook). And if you go over the bits and pieces, we hear about those phone calls, what is the main focus, he is talking about? Right, he talks about sex, and what he did sexually to MB. But what is the other part, the significant part? He talked about MB's lifestyle, where her lifestyle had brought her and where it would bring the sister, if she wouldn't change her ways. That is more along the religious mission driven line than along the usual rubber stamp profile of the white loner sadist sitting in mommy's basement. So, the rubber stamp profile combined with a guy, who doesn't like prostitutes and therefore kills them ... that' a bit like Robert "my favorite baker" Hanson saying, he didn't like prostitutes. Actually, he liked them, which was the reason he killed them. Well, I could go on, but I did it already in older posts over the last two years.

How could a stalker have known? Well, first thing is, there were ads in the internet. Second thing, it wasn't the first time. A stalker who had followed her once would know, she took the bus home and therefore concluded, under stress (she was mugged earlier), she would do the same thing. And he would be anyway at the bus terminal, it wouldn't be a detour for him. Because, well, he's a stalker. If he followed her form the hotel on 46th Street, where would he end up? At the bus terminal. So that is all no witchcraft. And he doesn't have to make contact with them to know they are prostitutes if he picks the first glance at Craigslist or out on the field. If you look at a Craigslist ad from a pro, you can assume, it's a pro. Because of what she offers. Safety measures on Craigslist were two years back extreme lousy (they improved in the meantime to lousy). Any script kid could bring in a backdoor. No art in that. Especially not for someone, who has proven in other aspects already, that he is pretty up to date with more complex techniques like cell phone spoofing. Vice versa, if he just saw her and decisded, that's a nice victim, I go and stalk her, what would he do? Well, we can in the meantime go and search for "similar pictures", for example in Google. We can combine that with other parameters, like city. And we can search the usual suspect sites, like facebook for example, and, in case of someone, we know already to be a hooker, maybe backlist, craigslist and so on. No art in that.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Except that I would be willing to guess that if we asked MBB's family or friends, they would confirm that MBB did not dress the part of your typical prostitute. So out of a thousand or so young women moving in and out of the bus terminal on a daily basis, it would be highly suspicious in MBB's mind if some random stranger walked up to her knowing that she was a prostitute.

So if he didn't snatch or abduct her, then either he was a previous client (which may or may not have freaked her out a little seeing him at the bus terminal like that) OR, he pretended to not have any prior knowledge of MBB being a prostitute until she volunteered it while being charmed by his conversation skills.

Oh my, that is some piece of logic. Mathematically it ends up with "he didn't know, she was a prostitute and therefore he knew ..." A little hard to follow in that rabbit hole.
She had ads out. She used a hotel in 46th street to meet with Johns. A hotel, that is known for exactly that kind of business. She had for example spent already the whole day in an area, that is basically world wide known for that kind of business. So, what could have given her away, I wonder?

 

[Redbird]

I have never read that ALC's date that night was a regular. Or that she was in no mood to go out that evening. There is no information that any of these girls had met their killer before, only speculation by posters. And we know nothing about how or when MB met her johns or how she ended up in Long Island.. MBB took a bus in from Conn. We have no idea what johns she saw after she checked into the hotel room or how she made contact. She used a phony name so how would the SK know where she came from. You're saying the SK would just recognize a prostitute if he saw one in Grand Central Station, know she came into town on a bus And have a handy computer to quickly look her up, then snatch her. My head is spinning.

 

[Peter Brendt]

How can he not be well versed, hes killed 4 sex workers in three years. and if you subscribe to the single killer theory which I'm leaning towards, you can add two possibly five more over the last 1-1.5 decades, you don't actually think these lets just say four for the sake of this argument, prostitutes were the only ones he has ever hired do you? the simple fact that he's offered just the right incintive for them to let down their guard (leaving their phones behind) in at least two cases that we know of tells me that he is at the least familiar but more probably well versed in the game.


also his looks didn't come to mind with my comment above, although its a intresting theory and should be factored in. my thoughts were just as mysterymom pointed out. these are prostitutes, going somewhere away from prying eyes to exchange sex for money is what they do and they do it willingly.

You don't need to be well versed to hire sex workers. You just need money. And not even too much of that. And we know two cases, in which the girls left behind their phones. One was, according to DS, a regular, ALC knew and trusted. Chances are, that regular is long found and dismissed. Because if they could connect him to any other victim, we would have heard.
The other one is MW. We actually don't really know, where she was going. If it would have been over to the shop, she could just have forgotten it, since she expected to be away for only a few minutes.
And well, you subscribe to the 1 killer theory, despite different signatures, kill speeds and behavior. Fine, I don't because of different signature, behavior and kill speed. So we can agree to disagree on that. But please try to avoid lines like the "no need ..." one, please. It makes me so iffy because I have too many SK cases in my files which all went dormant after people said "no need"

 

[Peter Brendt]

I have never read that ALC's date that night was a regular. Or that she was in no mood to go out that evening. There is no information that any of these girls had met their killer before, only speculation by posters. And we know nothing about how or when MB met her johns or how she ended up in Long Island.. MBB took a bus in from Conn. We have no idea what johns she saw after she checked into the hotel room or how she made contact. She used a phony name so how would the SK know where she came from. You're saying the SK would just recognize a prostitute if he saw one in Grand Central Station, know she came into town on a bus And have a handy computer to quickly look her up, then snatch her. My head is spinning.

Well, lets break it up for you, since you need obviously more detailed explanations to stop the spinning:

1.) Look at the the last 48 hours and what Schaller said there, then look at the first 48 hours, what he said there. Originally and in older articles (which are unfortunately not online anymore, but quoted here in older posts), he said, she knew that client. Only later, he became more reluctant. Which, as I ASSUME, was after that client was identified and dismissed.

2.) I never said, he had a handy computer with him. He had probably a handy cell phone with him. Makes nice photos, such a thing. And you can download those photos later in a computer and start to research. I ASSUME, you have heard of that possibility.

3.) MB was last seen near the apartment of her bf/pimp. That was in Brooklyn. I think, we can safely dismiss any theories involving beamed up and down by a space ship, spontaneous distortions of the space-time-continuum and parapsychic teleportation. So, the most likely way to end up in Long Island would be probably wheels. The problem here is, while the last people seeing her ASSUMED, she was waiting for a client to pick her up, there is actually nothing to indicate, that client was really located in LI. And even less, we can assume, that this client killed her. She could have been ambushed at the way home. The art of ambushing in the end is only to know where your victim comes by and be prepared.

4.) MBB ... yeah ... and you're sure, she used another face too?

 

[ps149]

So we have to construct that not one, but the majority of the cell phone shops, this hypothetical homicidal John used, erased the tapes (well video files) or had no cams at all. Not just one. Which is quite some stretch to make the homicidal John work before we even talked about the even bigger holes in the logic coming after the cell phone part. For example, MB was last seen in the Bronx, waiting, that someone came to fetch her. The hypothetical homicidal John or a driver? The number of drivers in this business is maybe big but not infinite. And if you follow a homicidal John theory, you have to make a decision, where his kill zone would be. City, Northern LI or at the Islands? Because whatever you try, you end up always with the same problem, a guy, who makes himself standing out by sometimes importing girls over a long driving distance. Remember how MP reacted when he heard, he is supposed to drive out to OB.

ALC and DS, the never-ending story. Closer reading also reveals, that DS stated, it was a regular, he only raised the prices when she had no mood to go out to him. So he didn't ask for "the prices", he asked, at what price, she would be willing that evening. The rub is, if this guy was a regular, and she maybe had a date with him in the weeks before, a stalker could have known about him too.

The phone calls to MB's sister don't indicate, she was actually that long alive. The indicate only, she was long enough alive to get this information out of her. Minus the information, a stalker would have known anyway.
Well, that "degrading the victim as a " followed by "justifying his crimes", that is so from the text book. Things are not that easy. For example:
The killer also called the pimp. Now, there is no way in hell, you can emotionally torture a pimp. They come with some degree of sociopathic or even psychopathic behavior on their own. And so, the calls are a direct contradiction to what the exactly same text book says (I reference here to the FBI Whitebook). And if you go over the bits and pieces, we hear about those phone calls, what is the main focus, he is talking about? Right, he talks about sex, and what he did sexually to MB. But what is the other part, the significant part? He talked about MB's lifestyle, where her lifestyle had brought her and where it would bring the sister, if she wouldn't change her ways. That is more along the religious mission driven line than along the usual rubber stamp profile of the white loner sadist sitting in mommy's basement. So, the rubber stamp profile combined with a guy, who doesn't like prostitutes and therefore kills them ... that' a bit like Robert "my favorite baker" Hanson saying, he didn't like prostitutes. Actually, he liked them, which was the reason he killed them. Well, I could go on, but I did it already in older posts over the last two years.

How could a stalker have known? Well, first thing is, there were ads in the internet. Second thing, it wasn't the first time. A stalker who had followed her once would know, she took the bus home and therefore concluded, under stress (she was mugged earlier), she would do the same thing. And he would be anyway at the bus terminal, it wouldn't be a detour for him. Because, well, he's a stalker. If he followed her form the hotel on 46th Street, where would he end up? At the bus terminal. So that is all no witchcraft. And he doesn't have to make contact with them to know they are prostitutes if he picks the first glance at Craigslist or out on the field. If you look at a Craigslist ad from a pro, you can assume, it's a pro. Because of what she offers. Safety measures on Craigslist were two years back extreme lousy (they improved in the meantime to lousy). Any script kid could bring in a backdoor. No art in that. Especially not for someone, who has proven in other aspects already, that he is pretty up to date with more complex techniques like cell phone spoofing. Vice versa, if he just saw her and decisded, that's a nice victim, I go and stalk her, what would he do? Well, we can in the meantime go and search for "similar pictures", for example in Google. We can combine that with other parameters, like city. And we can search the usual suspect sites, like facebook for example, and, in case of someone, we know already to be a hooker, maybe backlist, craigslist and so on. No art in that.

Peter I like all of your thinking so please take this as a friendly education about disposable burner phones. I am sure it might be different where you live. Here in New York, we do not need to ever visit a cell phone store/dealer or ever speak with a cell phone provider to purchase an already activated burner phone. Street vendors sell them at curbside all over NYC, Brooklyn, etc.. as common as cheap umbrellas, pretzels and hot dogs. These phones can be purchased for as little as $29.00 and that includes around four hours of talk time. With prices that low, there is never a need to risk being identified by adding more minutes or stepping foot in a store with security cameras. Simply use the four hours on the phone then throw it away and buy another one and fuhgeddaboudit. :innocent:

 

[OnTheCase27]

So we have to construct that not one, but the majority of the cell phone shops, this hypothetical homicidal John used, erased the tapes (well video files) or had no cams at all. Not just one. Which is quite some stretch to make the homicidal John work before we even talked about the even bigger holes in the logic coming after the cell phone part. For example, MB was last seen in the Bronx, waiting, that someone came to fetch her. The hypothetical homicidal John or a driver? The number of drivers in this business is maybe big but not infinite. And if you follow a homicidal John theory, you have to make a decision, where his kill zone would be. City, Northern LI or at the Islands? Because whatever you try, you end up always with the same problem, a guy, who makes himself standing out by sometimes importing girls over a long driving distance. Remember how MP reacted when he heard, he is supposed to drive out to OB.

If this guy found one place that sells these cell phones that had no visible camera's it's plausible he went back. Likely? No. But there is still that possibility. I think it's foolish to rule anything out without hard factual evidence. I don't think there was a driver involved. That would complicate the situation. Offering to pick the women up would be a lot easier. I am not even agreeing that it is a homicidal john. I think this case is way more complex than merely a stalker or a homicidal john. So if he is stalking MB in the Bronx how does he get her? The Bronx like Manhattan is crowded. If he lures her there has to be a reason he is able to lure her. For either the homicidal john or stalker you still need a crime scene or kill zone. If we are to follow the typical SK behavior it would most likely be about 20 miles or more from the dump site. LISK told MB's sister he was going to watch her rot. To me this means he could (not does) pass by her quickly if he felt the urge. To watch would imply more than one or two visits. It says to me he is more than like on LI, possibly works in the city and got more comfortable choosing someone closer to his home turf like ALC. Whether by stalking or simply being a john. Could be a rundown warehouse on LI or a nice suburbia area. What about you where do you believe the crime scene would be? The city or LI or beach. I think the beach is too close to home.

ALC and DS, the never-ending story. Closer reading also reveals, that DS stated, it was a regular, he only raised the prices when she had no mood to go out to him. So he didn't ask for "the prices", he asked, at what price, she would be willing that evening. The rub is, if this guy was a regular, and she maybe had a date with him in the weeks before, a stalker could have known about him too.

You are correct about at what price. I had to go back and watch that segment. It's possible she could have been stalked then. It was even stated by DS that one john called her and told her he was stalking her. But if she was meeting a regular did she meet him? Was he the last one to see her? Why does ALC go with the LISK? It's unlikely all four women were forced into the killers hands. So how does he lure them? With money? With a badge? Many questions remain unanswered.

The phone calls to MB's sister don't indicate, she was actually that long alive. The indicate only, she was long enough alive to get this information out of her. Minus the information, a stalker would have known anyway.
Well, that "degrading the victim as a " followed by "justifying his crimes", that is so from the text book. Things are not that easy. For example:
The killer also called the pimp. Now, there is no way in hell, you can emotionally torture a pimp. They come with some degree of sociopathic or even psychopathic behavior on their own. And so, the calls are a direct contradiction to what the exactly same text book says (I reference here to the FBI Whitebook). And if you go over the bits and pieces, we hear about those phone calls, what is the main focus, he is talking about? Right, he talks about sex, and what he did sexually to MB. But what is the other part, the significant part? He talked about MB's lifestyle, where her lifestyle had brought her and where it would bring the sister, if she wouldn't change her ways. That is more along the religious mission driven line than along the usual rubber stamp profile of the white loner sadist sitting in mommy's basement. So, the rubber stamp profile combined with a guy, who doesn't like prostitutes and therefore kills them ... that' a bit like Robert "my favorite baker" Hanson saying, he didn't like prostitutes. Actually, he liked them, which was the reason he killed them. Well, I could go on, but I did it already in older posts over the last two years.

I completely agree with his preaching to MB's sister is of a more religious driven subject matter than your traditional my mom was a prostitute so I hate them and want to kill them. Made me even contemplate a man in a religious position that could be responsible. Sorry you've had these discussions before I'm new here and I think it's good to refresh peoples minds with the details. One can only wonder if someone didn't leak the calls to MB's sister if he would have tried it with MW or ALC.

How could a stalker have known? Well, first thing is, there were ads in the internet. Second thing, it wasn't the first time. A stalker who had followed her once would know, she took the bus home and therefore concluded, under stress (she was mugged earlier), she would do the same thing. And he would be anyway at the bus terminal, it wouldn't be a detour for him. Because, well, he's a stalker. If he followed her form the hotel on 46th Street, where would he end up? At the bus terminal. So that is all no witchcraft. And he doesn't have to make contact with them to know they are prostitutes if he picks the first glance at Craigslist or out on the field. If you look at a Craigslist ad from a pro, you can assume, it's a pro. Because of what she offers. Safety measures on Craigslist were two years back extreme lousy (they improved in the meantime to lousy). Any script kid could bring in a backdoor. No art in that. Especially not for someone, who has proven in other aspects already, that he is pretty up to date with more complex techniques like cell phone spoofing. Vice versa, if he just saw her and decisded, that's a nice victim, I go and stalk her, what would he do? Well, we can in the meantime go and search for "similar pictures", for example in Google. We can combine that with other parameters, like city. And we can search the usual suspect sites, like facebook for example, and, in case of someone, we know already to be a hooker, maybe backlist, craigslist and so on. No art in that.

I think it is plausible that he stalked them. But in order to stalk he has to have had contact. Otherwise you merely have an ad for a pro and unless in that ad they give out their location how do you know where to look?