Manorville Butcher ** ONLY **

[Seaslug44]

The purpose and focus of this particular discussion is to assume that Manorville and LISK are TWO DIFFERENT killers. This is not the place to debate this nor is it the place to start in again about the "serial killers evolve" theory.

Also, please keep the discussions about GB4 to the GB4 thread and out of this one because they have nothing to do with this discussion.

Thank you!!

 

[BKS]

Okay, once more the differences:

Peter said: LISK wraps his victims
Manorville does not

I think maybe:The LISK no longer found the need to spread the bodies in different locations, that wasn't working out so well for him because the Lisk victims were found pretty quickly in Manorville. He found a better way to disguise the bodies, wrap them in burlap. He also knew Gilgo was safe because no one ever found JT or Jane Doe or the child from years earlier.

Peter said:LISK places his victims in a clustered dump site
Manorville does not

I think: Sometimes the LISK places his victims in clusters, sometimes not. The more confusion he creates the better for him.

Peter said:LISK targets prostitutes advertising in the internet
Manorville hunts at street corners

I think Lisk used to target prostitutes on the street but he now prefers the internet, less chance of getting caught!

Peter said:LISK has a kill frequency of average 2 per year, with signs of ramping up
Manorville has a constant kill frequence of about 0.25 per year

I think maybe The Lisk kill frequency increases due to stresses in his life.

Peter said: LISK drops whole bodies in one place
Manorville dismembers them and spreads them all over the place

I would think the Lisk changed his MO to further confuse police, plus he doesn't have the privacy as he had several years back.

Peter said: LISK is a left-hander (showing in a counterclockwise circular pattern when he laid out his victims)
Manorville is a right-hander (showing for example in the angle of the cuts when he destroyed the tattoo on JT's back)

Maybe the Lisk is ambidextrous.

A few interesting facts about those that are ambidextrous.

According to a study by BBC Science:

"The ambidextrous are more likely to possess the LRRTM1 gene (on chromosome 2), which is linked to schizophrenia. Studies reveal that people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be ambidextrous or left-handed than people who are not schizophrenic."

"People who identify as ‘either-handed’ score slightly lower overall in general intelligence testing, and most often those scores are lower in arithmetic, memory and reasoning…"

"Also, according to a study from Merrimack College, Ambis can be quick to anger, which suggests a higher interlinking of brain hemispheres found in ambidextrous and lefties. A follow-up study found that the increased hemisphere connections correlate to increased awkwardness, clumsiness and moodiness."

 

[Peter Brendt]

Okay, once more the differences:

Peter said: LISK wraps his victims
Manorville does not

I think maybe:The LISK no longer found the need to spread the bodies in different locations, that wasn't working out so well for him because the Lisk victims were found pretty quickly in Manorville. He found a better way to disguise the bodies, wrap them in burlap. He also knew Gilgo was safe because no one ever found JT or Jane Doe or the child from years earlier.

Peter said:LISK places his victims in a clustered dump site
Manorville does not

I think: Sometimes the LISK places his victims in clusters, sometimes not. The more confusion he creates the better for him.

Peter said:LISK targets prostitutes advertising in the internet
Manorville hunts at street corners

I think Lisk used to target prostitutes on the street but he now prefers the internet, less chance of getting caught!

Peter said:LISK has a kill frequency of average 2 per year, with signs of ramping up
Manorville has a constant kill frequence of about 0.25 per year

I think maybe The Lisk kill frequency increases due to stresses in his life.

Peter said: LISK drops whole bodies in one place
Manorville dismembers them and spreads them all over the place

I would think the Lisk changed his MO to further confuse police, plus he doesn't have the privacy as he had several years back.

Peter said: LISK is a left-hander (showing in a counterclockwise circular pattern when he laid out his victims)
Manorville is a right-hander (showing for example in the angle of the cuts when he destroyed the tattoo on JT's back)

Maybe the Lisk is ambidextrous.

A few interesting facts about those that are ambidextrous.

According to a study by BBC Science:

"The ambidextrous are more likely to possess the LRRTM1 gene (on chromosome 2), which is linked to schizophrenia. Studies reveal that people with schizophrenia are significantly more likely to be ambidextrous or left-handed than people who are not schizophrenic."

"People who identify as ‘either-handed’ score slightly lower overall in general intelligence testing, and most often those scores are lower in arithmetic, memory and reasoning…"

"Also, according to a study from Merrimack College, Ambis can be quick to anger, which suggests a higher interlinking of brain hemispheres found in ambidextrous and lefties. A follow-up study found that the increased hemisphere connections correlate to increased awkwardness, clumsiness and moodiness."

Can you ask a mod to move this discussion somewhere where it belongs? As Seaslug pointed out, this is a threat to discuss under the assumption, there are two killers.

 

[Just K]

Well, the Manorville Killer could have been right-handed, left-handed or ambidextrous.

If he stood or sat over her with her neck/shoulders between his legs, the cuts would go in the opposite direction then if he stood or sat over her with the lower torso between his legs. Or, if he was seated to either side of her, the cuts would be relative to whichever side he was on. So, given that we do not know how he had JT placed while he cut up her tattoo, there is no way to say that the killer is either right or left handed.

 

[truthspider]

Well, the Manorville Killer could have been right-handed, left-handed or ambidextrous.

If he stood or sat over her with her neck/shoulders between his legs, the cuts would go in the opposite direction then if he stood or sat over her with the lower torso between his legs. Or, if he was seated to either side of her, the cuts would be relative to whichever side he was on. So, given that we do not know how he had JT placed while he cut up her tattoo, there is no way to say that the killer is either right or left handed.

you see that nugzter? good old geometry, now that rocks. lol. right on just k.

 

[nugzter]

you see that nugzter? good old geometry, now that rocks. lol. right on just k.

AGREED!!!!! :rocker:
I have also tried to figure that out. But I gave up due to the above reason, and switched to WHY?????
I don' think he was too concerned about hiding her identity.
Could be he was removing what he considered a marking from another man, and this was his way of staking his claim.
Could be he is a sadist and just wanted to do it for fun.
Could be anything.

 

[truthspider]

AGREED!!!!! :rocker:
I have also tried to figure that out. But I gave up due to the above reason, and switched to WHY?????
I don' think he was too concerned about hiding her identity.
Could be he was removing what he considered a marking from another man, and this was his way of staking his claim.
Could be he is a sadist and just wanted to do it for fun.
Could be anything.

He is a sadist, there is no doubt. He probably did it while she was alive.
and for PBj to say manorville and lisk are different because of mutilation, there is no evidence to determine if there was mutilation of the victims who were skeletons when they were found. he could have spent weeks torturing and mutilating them for all we know.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Well, the Manorville Killer could have been right-handed, left-handed or ambidextrous.

If he stood or sat over her with her neck/shoulders between his legs, the cuts would go in the opposite direction then if he stood or sat over her with the lower torso between his legs. Or, if he was seated to either side of her, the cuts would be relative to whichever side he was on. So, given that we do not know how he had JT placed while he cut up her tattoo, there is no way to say that the killer is either right or left handed.

You missed the point: If he would have sat on her shoulders for example, the blade angle would go for a left-hander to the right, for a right hander to the left while in both cases, the entry point of the blade would be on the lower end of the cut.
If he sat on her legs, the blade angels would be vice versa, but the entry points would be on the upper end of the cuts. So given, that we do not know what we know, we are maybe forced to look.

 

[Peter Brendt]

you see that nugzter? good old geometry, now that rocks. lol. right on just k.

Good old geometry with missing the fix point gives him a C+ in math and you get another C+ for not seeing it.

 

[Peter Brendt]

AGREED!!!!! :rocker:
I have also tried to figure that out. But I gave up due to the above reason, and switched to WHY?????

I don' think he was too concerned about hiding her identity.

Me neither since her identity isn't linked to his. He is a street corner hunter.

Could be he was removing what he considered a marking from another man, and this was his way of staking his claim.

He made her his own statement. Of course, he didn't like a property mark of another man on her

Could be he is a sadist and just wanted to do it for fun.

This is not mutilation of genitals and he is too high organized for that. And since it happened post-mortem, it also wasn't sadistic torture.

Could be anything.

Nope, it's directly connected to the way, he saw her.

 

[Peter Brendt]

He is a sadist, there is no doubt. He probably did it while she was alive.
and for PBj to say manorville and lisk are different because of mutilation, there is no evidence to determine if there was mutilation of the victims who were skeletons when they were found. he could have spent weeks torturing and mutilating them for all we know.

You are not especially good at this, are you? How about, you get yourself a pic of the mutilated tattoo and have close look? The cuts are straight, means, no muscle reaction when the cut was made. Those cuts were made post-mortem. And what about this mutilation part? I'll make it easy for you: If the head is more than 10 yards away from the torso, it's part of dismembering. Cutting or hacking someone to pieces and spread them all over the place, you know? As in not taking a complete body and wrap it in burlap. Complete vs incomplete. Got it! Please tell me you got it!

 

[Seaslug44]

Let's see if we can back on topic in a civilized manor.

Just a reminder that particular discussion is about the possibility that the person(s) responsible for the murder of the butchered victims (and possibly the toddler and the Asian male) is a different serial killer than the person responsible for the GB4.

So PLEASE, not one word here about SG, the GB4, CPH, JB, the Atlantic City victims, or anything to do with Oak Beach. Also, no stories rom 20 years ago about police corruption or teenage boys stuffing rocks in each other's mouths.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Nice to be back ...

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Quote:
A female, non-Caucasian toddler thought to be 16 to 32 months old, who was also found April 4, is a blood relative of another woman found 7 miles away in Nassau County on April 11 near Jones Beach. "It is likely that these two individuals are mother and child," Dormer said.

Police released images of hoop earrings and a rope necklace worn by the toddler, as well as two bracelets found with her adult relative. The bracelets are both gold in color, and have a pattern of Xs embedded with stones that resemble diamonds. The woman and child are believed to have been dead one to five years before their discovery.
-Source

Without reading the whole thread and asking while I read. I wanted to ask a new-b question.
Just read post 4 and have they determined the mother and daughter to be black? The hoop earnings is common as being seen on young toddlers in the community. Around the age of 3 to 4. And the Xs I believer but not certain are in reference to Malcolm X. If the answer has been already discovered long ago than just disregard this newb-s posting.

Any particular part of this thread would you recommend for a new-b?

Important question..
Was the toddler find by a tree besides water.
If yes I have link to a similar practice.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Without reading the whole thread and asking while I read. I wanted to ask a new-b question.
Just read post 4 and have they determined the mother and daughter to be black? The hoop earnings is common as being seen on young toddlers in the community. Around the age of 3 to 4. And the Xs I believer but not certain are in reference to Malcolm X. If the answer has been already discovered long ago than just disregard this newb-s posting.

Any particular part of this thread would you recommend for a new-b?

Important question..
Was the toddler find by a tree besides water.
If yes I have link to a similar practice.

I know those XOXOXO things as "hugs and kisses". But different subcultures, maybe different meaning.
No idea whether there was a tree ... but the link to the similar practice would be interesting anyway.

This mother/daughter duo seems to indicate, he snatched the mother, who is otherwise consistent with his other victims in her private environment. Not much chances, a prostitute brings her baby to business, I think.

 

[marie-chantal]

I know those XOXOXO things as "hugs and kisses". But different subcultures, maybe different meaning.
No idea whether there was a tree ... but the link to the similar practice would be interesting anyway.

This mother/daughter duo seems to indicate, he snatched the mother, who is otherwise consistent with his other victims in her private environment. Not much chances, a prostitute brings her baby to business, I think.

XO jewelry is fairly common in the United States. I don't think this has anything to do with Malcolm X. I think this is just one of those XO necklaces. I really don't think it's got anything to do with Malcolm X.

When I heard of the baby wearing jewelry, I immediately thought that she was Latina. I don't know of any African-American babies wearing gold earrings, but it is very, very, very common in many different Hispanic cultures for babies to have their ears pierced. I wonder if mother and baby were Dominican or Puerto Rican?

 

[nugzter]

XO jewelry is fairly common in the United States. I don't think this has anything to do with Malcolm X. I think this is just one of those XO necklaces. I really don't think it's got anything to do with Malcolm X.

When I heard of the baby wearing jewelry, I immediately thought that she was Latina. I don't know of any African-American babies wearing gold earrings, but it is very, very, very common in many different Hispanic cultures for babies to have their ears pierced. I wonder if mother and baby were Dominican or Puerto Rican?

I posted about the jewlery back early on in the thread where I had found the xo bracelet on Amazon. It is an exact match. I sent the link to Crime Stoppers.

 

[Peter Brendt]

About the Asian male (is he counted JD8?). Does anybody know, what happened with this possible identification as Jimmy Tsui from Stonybrook? Disappeared 1998 already, but was then 20 years old.

 

[truthspider]

You are not especially good at this, are you? How about, you get yourself a pic of the mutilated tattoo and have close look? The cuts are straight, means, no muscle reaction when the cut was made. Those cuts were made post-mortem. And what about this mutilation part? I'll make it easy for you: If the head is more than 10 yards away from the torso, it's part of dismembering. Cutting or hacking someone to pieces and spread them all over the place, you know? As in not taking a complete body and wrap it in burlap. Complete vs incomplete. Got it! Please tell me you got it!

mutilation ≠ dismember

I stated that we don't know if the G4 were mutilated because we found bare skeletons. The killer very well may have mutilated the G4 but left the bones unscathed and the skeleton in tact.

As for JT's tattoo, I don't see the straight lines that you do.
How can you tell the cuts were made post mortem?

 

[Peter Brendt]

mutilation ≠ dismember

I stated that we don't know if the G4 were mutilated because we found bare skeletons. The killer very well may have mutilated the G4 but left the bones unscathed and the skeleton in tact.

As for JT's tattoo, I don't see the straight lines that you do.
How can you tell the cuts were made post mortem?

No comment to the first part, anyone can read the posts before.

On the second part, how do I know, the cuts were made post-mortem:
If you cut a living person, said person feels pain. This leads too muscle reaction, which means, the cuts deviate in the direction of the muscle tension. No such deviation in the photos. Ergo, the victim was already dead.