Marauding pit bulls attack six - 10 year old boy, Critical

[Jeana (DP)]

Most dogs when they bite give a warning bite... they wish to be left alone and they are going to bite you if you do not. I would venture to guess that the majority of dog attacks are of this type... However a pitbull gives no such warning when they bite they keep on until someone manages to stop them.

Excellent point! They should be banned for the very reason assault rifles should be banned. They exist only to kill.

 

[Details]

How do you know this? It seems to me that if I had a bad dog, but loved it and didn't want to admit that it was bad, I would make these positive statements about my dog and plead ignorance.

Also, have you thought of all of the good (pit bull type) dog owners out there and the detremental effect banning their dog will have on them? Or don't you care? (Just curious). I just assume that you, like others would be very heartbroken if you were told you have to get rid of your dog. Are there any statistics or facts that tell us how many pit bull type dogs are out there and how many are good vs. bad. I just think a less damning measure should be taken first before we jump to conclusions with little information out there other than media reports.

You might, but your friends and neighbors would not be so willing to cover up for you. The family dogs who snapped - everyone thought they were fine. 20/20 hindsight might work - or it might not.

Thoughts of the pit bull owners (and I do have pets, and would be heartbroken to lose them) are balanced with thoughts of those they injure or kill. I would never, ever, ever have a pet that might kill someone, and pit bull owners are just blinding themselves to that possibility. I'd start with neutering them all, and putting strong restrictions - if you want to keep a pit bull, it must be muzzled and leashed at all times out in public; your fence must be seriously tall and strong, or no pitbull. I'd be honestly tempted to say that if you have small children in your house, no pitbull then either, just to save the kids - but that's a hard choice - let a parent put their own child in danger and figure it's OK because it is their choice?

Another approach is routine agressiveness testing (have you seen kgeaux's post about how he deals with his pit bull? - that's an owner I don't mind having a dangerous dog, because he/she does recognize it as a dangerous dog and deals with it as such!) and any dog that fails is put down. That'd help the breed, get rid of the agressive pit bulls (and other breeds similarly dangerous) from the genepool, but it'd cost a lot of money, and you know people would be in denial if they got a negative report, go look for a vet that will pass any dog.

 

[SadieMae]

From The Rottweiler Breed Standard:
An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs should not be faulted.

From The Border Terrier Breed Standard:
In the field he is hard as nails, "game as they come" and driving in attack

From The Doberman Standard:
Temperment
Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient. The judge shall dismiss from the ring any shy or vicious Doberman.
Shyness: A dog shall be judged fundamentally shy if, refusing to stand for examination, it shrinks away from the judge; if it fears an approach from the rear; if it shies at sudden and unusual noises to a marked degree.
Viciousness: A dog that attacks or attempts to attack either the judge or its handler, is definitely vicious. An aggressive or belligerent attitude towards other dogs shall not be deemed viciousness.



Within just TEN minutes of researching breed standards on www.akc.org, I found THREE breed standards that CLEARLY stated dog aggression is NOT to be penalized. Did you try doing the same research before opening your mouth and inserting foot. YES, that is what I am saying and so is akc. NOT all breeds are bred to be pack dogs, like the more dominant, self-confident breeds. People get the illusion of some uncontrollable dog at the end of a leash attempting to eat another dog ten feet away. IF the dog was PROPERLY trained and accompanied by a RESPONSIBLE dog owner, a stranger in the park wouldn't notice if the dog was dog aggressive or not until another dog motioned over into its face where it didn't belong in the first place. This a breed as well as many other breeds who don't submit or back down to confrontation from another dog, plain and simple. A good responsible bully breed owner will not allow their dog to run up to another dogs face. Infact, I wouldn't allow it even if my dog wasn't dog aggressive withOUT asking the owner first. Not ALL dogs get along, understand?? That's why dog parks are not good ideas for dogs who won't get along with each & every dog it sees. It's also why people need to practice responsible dog ownership. Here's a PERFECT case of idiotism of a people's court case. Plantiff sues defendant for vet bill damages to his toy poodle. Defendant's story is he was walking his siberian husky dog down the street with a LEASH ON when an UNLEASHED & UNATTENDED toy poddle ran up to the siberian husky's face. The husky bit the toy poodle and the owner had to take the toy poodle to the vet. Well, who is the responsible one here? Who's fault was it the dog got bit??? If that toy poodle was leashed or confined, maybe the husky wouldn't have bit him? Then the owner has the audacity to sue some guy who was walking his dog on leash in public terrority!!! The judge found the case to be so ludicrous, she had a thing to two to say to the owner of the toy poddle for being so irresponsible. Its is ALL about being a responsible dog owner. You don't have to choose a dominant self-confident breed, there different types of breed temperments to choose from but don't ever tell me its not ok to own a dog aggressive dog when I have FULL control of him and I am being the responsible dog owner.

As for experts claiming some dogs can't differientate between a child and a dog, my answer is and will always be, put the dog down, humanely ofcourse. If its not smart enough to know the difference, it doesn't have a place in society. I have had astranged children from 2yr olds to 10yrs approach my dogs on my property and they have always known the difference, otherwise they get a one way trip to the vet. Breeds of dogs all have one thing in common, they were ALL bred to be mans best friend. Best I can say, becareful who you pick and choose to buy a dog from, genetics plays a huge role in how well a dog is genetically bred and quality breeding is MOST important.

Those are breed standards for show dogs, not family pets. Those dogs are owned by PROFESSIONALS! Those are great guidelines to go by when selecting a breed for a pet. Therefore I would not own any of those breeds because I have a multi dog family. A dog's aggression to other dogs might not be "penalized" in the show ring, but it surely would be in my home.

 

[CyberLaw]

But unfortunately the law does not punish the owners of the dog if the owner is not responsible for the dog harming another person. It is not like the dog is a minor child and the parents can control and "reason" with him/her.

So if you can't get people to conform to society rules of responsible ownership of dogs which are potentially vicious, there has to Legislation put in place to protect the public from these dogs.

These dogs can turn on a person, animal on a dime. It is not like the owner can stop the pitbull once it has initiated an attack. Even if the owner was a responsbile pet owner and had no idea that his "beloved" pet is a potential killer.

I for one go out of my way to avoid any pitbulls that are not muzzled.......

I had a dog turn on me when I was 8. Still have the scar........four kids were taking the "family" pet out for a walk when he "suddenly" turned on me. Clamped on my leg, and would not let go. It took rocks, sticks, 3 kids, 2 adults, large pieces of wood for the dog to finally let go.

The dog was eventually put down and the owners chalked it up to "poor breeding" of the dog..........the dog up to the attack on me, never harmed their children, but suddenly without provocation attacked me.

But after the attack on me, the dog went on to attack a jogger, this was a "family" pet that went crazy...........and dangerous.....and violent and the owners of the dog were just a normal family that loved their pet and had no idea that he could "suddenly" turn violent.

So I weigh in on the breed is inheritanly violent and can attack without provocation at any time........it is in their breeding and nature.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

how was i personally attacking? details is making a very ignorant post. why didn't you just delete what you didn't like? and i didn't see you had pm'd me until you told me. he should not blurt out bad information. why do people need to get licensed and trained to own specific dogs? if people don't obey the dog laws then that's where the problem is. as for the rest of my post being deleted, forthekids has said all that is correct.

Its not my responsibility to make your posts acceptable to this forum. You knew the rules when you joined. This is one of the reasons your post was removed:

ARE YOU REALLY THIS DELUSION??

You may have used bad grammar, but an attack is an attack, and the post goes.

 

[Amraann]

LOLOL Miss Jeana she is umm no longer among us after her reply to you.

 

[SadieMae]

Curly .once again I will put the statistics here . The dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers:

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities."


NOTE that the percentage went up to 67% in 1997 to 1998


In my eyes these speak for themselves .I understand how much you love your dog and sympathise but I believe the risk to be worth letting this breed (and I wish it were rottweillers to) be banned and to die out naturally.

​

One thing I'd like to point out is that study covers up to 1998. I don't recall hearing stories about PB killing back then. I bet a study covering from then to now would show higher numbers in PB attacks since the dogs have gained such notariety. For this year alone I can recall 4 incidents of deaths by pit bull attacks.

 

[forthekids]

Another approach is routine agressiveness testing (have you seen kgeaux's post about how he deals with his pit bull? - that's an owner I don't mind having a dangerous dog, because he/she does recognize it as a dangerous dog and deals with it as such!) and any dog that fails is put down. That'd help the breed, get rid of the agressive pit bulls (and other breeds similarly dangerous) from the genepool, but it'd cost a lot of money, and you know people would be in denial if they got a negative report, go look for a vet that will pass any dog.

What do you think about my post about what is going on in my area re. professional organizations solely dealing with adopting out these dogs.....?

I agree that it would be great, help the breed, and give some sanity back to responsible owners is to weed out those nasty ones. Besides the problem you already stated I sure there could be some bias with the assessor (for the breed or against)---so I'm not sure that could work in both eliminating aggressive dogs or saving those that are not due to bias. I really appreciate you putting some thought into alternatives to banning the breed. From this I can see that you fully understand why it is such a hard thing to stand up for anything being oppressed, never seems to be a solution that would be good for everyone.... (darn social worker is coming out of me.... ). Maybe a combination of things could work....I'll have to think about this one some more! But I definitely think that we'll see banning something doesn't work well. Hasn't that been true for the UK already?

Thanks again for digging into a solution further.

 

[dnrslucky1]

Hi all! I am a newby here, so please try and be patient with me if I make any mistakes! By the way I have been following this thread for days!

I am and have always been a dog lover. I currently have two dogs, a GSD and a Lhasa, also three cats and two birds.

I believe most PB owners are irresponcible, my reasoning is PB's are cheap, easy to get, breeders of these dogs don't care who their pups goto or if the new owner has the capability, knowledge or responcibility to properly train and care for these animals. Most new owners will be young inexperienced dog handlers looking for the statis symbol and or for dog fighting abilities!

The reason I had to but in here, is my husband called me yesterday from work and said a stray dog had been hanging around there all day. Of course I told him if it was still there at 5PM to bring it home and I would either find the owner or a new home. Well, Lo and Behold he brings me home a PB! Mind you not neutered and no dog licence. Now this dog is going to be almost impossible to rehome and I am not sure if the owner deserves him back!

Point is, a good responcible dog breeder would check out any and all potential new owners, have a neuter agreement and charge a substantial amount of money. People can buy PB's cheaper than going to the humane society. If someone is willing to apply for, neuter and pay decent money for a pet, they wouldn't allow their pet to escape to get run over or lost!

By the way I am not against or for PB's, just believe any animal deserves a chance and a decent responcible owner.

Thank You!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Hi all! I am a newby here, so please try and be patient with me if I make any mistakes! By the way I have been following this thread for days!

I am and have always been a dog lover. I currently have two dogs, a GSD and a Lhasa, also three cats and two birds.

I believe most PB owners are irresponcible, my reasoning is PB's are cheap, easy to get, breeders of these dogs don't care who their pups goto or if the new owner has the capability, knowledge or responcibility to properly train and care for these animals. Most new owners will be young inexperienced dog handlers looking for the statis symbol and or for dog fighting abilities!

The reason I had to but in here, is my husband called me yesterday from work and said a stray dog had been hanging around there all day. Of course I told him if it was still there at 5PM to bring it home and I would either find the owner or a new home. Well, Lo and Behold he brings me home a PB! Mind you not neutered and no dog licence. Now this dog is going to be almost impossible to rehome and I am not sure if the owner deserves him back!

Point is, a good responcible dog breeder would check out any and all potential new owners, have a neuter agreement and charge a substantial amount of money. People can buy PB's cheaper than going to the humane society. If someone is willing to apply for, neuter and pay decent money for a pet, they wouldn't allow their pet to escape to get run over or lost!

By the way I am not against or for PB's, just believe any animal deserves a chance and a decent responcible owner.

Thank You!

Welcome!!!!! I grew up living with six retired police K-9s, all GSDs. I love that breed like no other and knew that the only dogs I'd have in my home would be GSDs.

 

[dnrslucky1]

Thank you Jeana,

Mine is a rescue dog, wonderfull and I love him to death but could do without the shedding, Lol! He is a house dog so it is a constant cleanup!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Thank you Jeana,

Mine is a rescue dog, wonderfull and I love him to death but could do without the shedding, Lol! He is a house dog so it is a constant cleanup!

I know! Here in Texas, its horrible!!! I knew that any dog that came into our home would be near our relatively young children, and didn't want to take the chance on any "baggage," coming with the dog, so got our's at 8 weeks old.

 

[dnrslucky1]

Jeana,

Mine was only 4 months when I got him but very abused and caked in poop! He has been thru obedience and is one of the best behaved dogs I have ever had! Never leaves my side! He is very good with my grandchildren, but all of my pets are supervised with any child! More for the pet's safty! Lol!

 

[BarnGoddess]

Well, here we go again in Colorado......This weekend 5 pit bulls attack two teens walking. Fortunately neither were hurt seriously.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1312083&secid=1

By the way, here's a good quote attributed to both Mark Twain and Disraeli. "There are liars, damned liars and statistitions.

I did a little calculation. I am seeing 99.9% of Pit Bulls are wonderful dogs. Hmmm, how many Pit Bulls are there 10,000? That means That there are 100 dogs out there that are endangering innocent people. That's not 2.2 per year that I read about earlier in this thread. How many pit bulls are estimated to be out in our neighborhoods? Believe me there are many more attacks than that by these dogs. Just citing DEATHS doesn't cut it. Lets include total maulings. There's definitely more than 2.2 per year in this category.

Here's a good site for some particulars:
http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/DogBiteStatistics.html

a coulple of interesting snips from the above:

The breeds most often involved in fatal attacks are Rottweilers and Pit bulls.

In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Jeana,

Mine was only 4 months when I got him but very abused and caked in poop! He has been thru obedience and is one of the best behaved dogs I have ever had! Never leaves my side! He is very good with my grandchildren, but all of my pets are supervised with any child! More for the pet's safty! Lol!

Ahhh, that poor baby!!!! I had mine trained for protection, so we put in about 150 hours and he takes his commands in German. No matter how big they get, you can always see their baby faces!

 

[SadieMae]

This is why Labs are better pets than Pit Bulls...

Boy saved from pit bull attack...
http://www.ketv.com/news/4574673/detail.html

 

[BarnGoddess]

Cyberlaw:
So if you can't get people to conform to society rules of responsible ownership of dogs which are potentially vicious, there has to Legislation put in place to protect the public from these dogs

Very well put, Cyberlaw. I applaud you on this particular sentence in your post.

SadieMae:One thing I'd like to point out is that study covers up to 1998. I don't recall hearing stories about PB killing back then. I bet a study covering from then to now would show higher numbers in PB attacks since the dogs have gained such notariety. For this year alone I can recall 4 incidents of deaths by pit bull attacks.

As the breed gains more "popularaity, the numbers increase. And in googling, it seems the attacks have drastically risen since the the study was through 1998. I think the ownership has increased dramatically since then.

Does anyone remember Frankie Scarbrough? In 1979 he was a very young little boy in Miami who was attacked by pit bulls that jumped the fence in his own back yard in Miami. The neighbors were training pit bulls for the ring using cats dangling from ropes. Our next door neighbor at the time was a plastic surgeon and volunteered to perform this boy's surgury without fees. I remember he had to have a new ear fashioned and many painful skin grafts over 20 years or so. I found this on the net:

http://www.animaladvocates.com/ITS-TIME-Public-Safety-further-research.PDF

This is adobe and you can find it on page 3.

 

[SadieMae]

Well, here we go again in Colorado......This weekend 5 pit bulls attack two teens walking. Fortunately neither were hurt seriously.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1312083&secid=1

Believe me there are many more attacks than that by these dogs. Just citing DEATHS doesn't cut it. Lets include total maulings. There's definitely more than 2.2 per year in this category.

Here's a good site for some particulars:
http://www.dogexpert.com/HomePage/DogBiteStatistics.html

a coulple of interesting snips from the above:

The breeds most often involved in fatal attacks are Rottweilers and Pit bulls.

In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.

You are so correct. The number of 2.2 only goes up to reports since 1998. Just for deaths caused by Pit Bulls in the year 2005 I found these accounts. And these are not all of them!!!! Their were so many other incidents of people and their animals being attacked.

Curly...you need to just quit now. Your agument based on those old numbers is no good.. Just those story's put the number at 7 for the year, 3 times more than 7 years ago. There IS a reason to ban these dogs!!!


70 year old woman killed Feb 2005
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1338205/posts

The story of the 12 year old boy...killed by family pet June 2005
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1338205/posts

14 month old girl...killed by family pet
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9967524

Toddler girl...by family pet May 2005
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1405721/posts

8 month old boy killed...by family pet July 2005
http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=2046486

13 month old boy killed...by family pet November 2005
http://www.wlky.com/news/5267310/detail.html

82 year old woman and pet Shitzu killed...family pets April 2005 March
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20050408-103426-3410r.htm

And most those owners would consider themselves, "responsible" PB owners.

 

[Details]

Professional organizations may help - especially if they do the agressiveness testing (seems to me like they could be a good neutral body to reliably do the testing), and don't adopt out the agressive ones. The test is something pretty simple that seems fairly objective whether or not a dog passes - things like letting another dog eat in front of it, being in a submissive pose to a human while another dog is in the room, etc.

The owner I was talking about described the test, as well as what he does to make sure that if anything were to go wrong that people would still be safe - a muzzle and a leash, a muzzle when around children always, high back yard fences. To me, that's a responsible owner.

Yeah, I'm open to solutions other than killing them all - I just want real solutions, because there is a real problem here.

 

[Details]

That's the stat I needed

In the United States, pit bulls make up one to three per cent of the overall dog population and cause more than 50 per cent of serious attacks.

So, 21% of all fatalities caused by 1-3% of the dogs. That makes pit bulls 700% more likely to inflict a serious attack (at the best interpretation here) than the average dog. Pit bulls are a problem.