McCanns launch new appeal

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  • #141
Trust me, newspapers do not simply remove stories because someone asks them to. Two newspapers - the Express and the Star (both trashy tabloids) removed stories which they acknowledged were false.

There is a vast difference, even if you are unable to see it.



And no matter how much you want it to be so, the only thing we know for certain is that Madeleine was taken by person or persons unknown and that her parents had neither means nor opportunity to do everything they would have had to do to fit your theory.

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove they killed their daughter (accidentally or deliberately - makes no matter) and then hid her body. It is not on them to prove their innocence.

The McCanns have been cleared by the Portuguese Attorney General on the ground of lack of evidence that they committed ANY crime.

I am very willing to hear your proof that the Attorney General got his facts wrong. You need to back it up with FACTS though. No speculation or ignoring of known facts to make your theory fit.:rolleyes:

I will say this again - maybe its hard to read i dont know - i have said numerous times i do not believe the McCanns killed there daughter. THAT should be easy to understand so WHY do i have to prove they did? What I believe is that an accident happened and that the McCanns know where she is.

As for the press you are wrong. There was injunctions in place stopping things from being said. Madeleine was made a ward of court which also stops things from being said. I could go on..but yes things were removed from the press regarding this case. MOST people know that MOO

Btw regarding the "trashy Express or Star" . It was either the Express or Mail Tanner gave her story to so go and figure.
 
  • #142
I will say this again - maybe its hard to read i dont know - i have said numerous times i do not believe the McCanns killed there daughter. THAT should be easy to understand so WHY do i have to prove they did? What I believe is that an accident happened and that the McCanns know where she is.

You don't think they killed her but you do think that they came back to the apartment, found her dead from an accident decided to hide her body instead of seeking medical help or attempting rescusitation?

Surely that's even more ludicrous than suggesting they killed her and decided to hide her body?

Why would they hide her body if she died of an accident they'd had nothing to do with?

As for the press you are wrong. There was injunctions in place stopping things from being said. Madeleine was made a ward of court which also stops things from being said. I could go on..but yes things were removed from the press regarding this case. MOST people know that MOO

Btw regarding the "trashy Express or Star" . It was either the Express or Mail Tanner gave her story to so go and figure.

The stories which were removed are ones which were flae and llibellous. I saved most of them and the links and the links no longer work - that's how I know.

Jane Tanner gave her story to Panorama. I am starting to see a common theme going on here. Just because a tabloid newspaper printed excerpts of her interview does not mean she spoke directly to them.

What have I to "go figure" now?:rolleyes:
 
  • #143
Hi Rash :)

It came out at the very beginning of the case - however most of that stuff has gone Whoosh as the stories changed!

Nope. It came out later. I'm posting it here to clear it up otherwise this will become another "fact":-

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/madeleinemccann/Gerry-McCann-came-close-to.3329263.jp


But over the months since Madeleine's disappearance he has become increasingly convinced that the intruder was already in the flat.

"He believes there was certainly something odd," a friend said today. "The bedroom door was ajar when he got in and he thought: 'That's strange'. He went into the room, checked that Madeleine was still asleep in bed; she was and he came out, closed the door.

"Initially he thought that she might have got up and gone to the toilet or gone to get a drink or something but now he thinks that the abductor must have been in there hiding."

The friend added: "He believes he came in, opened the door and didn't have time to close it [as he went to hide before Gerry arrived].

"Once Gerry had left he would have known he had to come out very quickly and because Gerry went out through the patio door, went out through the window. He has no proof but that is what he believes."
 
  • #144
You don't think they killed her but you do think that they came back to the apartment, found her dead from an accident decided to hide her body instead of seeking medical help or attempting rescusitation?

Surely that's even more ludicrous than suggesting they killed her and decided to hide her body?

Why would they hide her body if she died of an accident they'd had nothing to do with?



The stories which were removed are ones which were flae and llibellous. I saved most of them and the links and the links no longer work - that's how I know.

Jane Tanner gave her story to Panorama. I am starting to see a common theme going on here. Just because a tabloid newspaper printed excerpts of her interview does not mean she spoke directly to them.

What have I to "go figure" now?:rolleyes:

What you have to go and "figure" is the interview that she gave to Panorama was probably nearly a YEAR after the interview she gave to the paper ...sorry :rolleyes:

As for the other..it would depend on how she died to be honest. Ie say of drugs...and if she was already dead its kind of late to take her to the hospital to be resuccitated. Also..would depend on how long she had been dead...cos they couldnt take her to the hospital and say it just happened if it was in fact some time ago. I can think of reasons why they would hide the body...i guess many could think of reasons. Ie they didnt want to lose the twins..they didnt want to lose there jobs..there friends didnt want to lose there jobs...or kids.

And no..the old links were removed BEFORE anything was found to be libellous about them.

 
  • #145
  • #146
1-2.jpg
We heard the other day about the White Van that was never traced. However two witnesses by the name of Derek Flack and Lance Purser gave descriptions of these two men


I wonder where they could fit into the story and who they could be?
 
  • #147
I am astonished that despite the enormous amount of inaccurate and false stories that have been published about the McCanns regarding what they did and said, you STILL don't put discrepancies down to bad reporting and would apparently rather attribute them to the McCanns not being able to keep their stories straight!
I never automatically put disrepancies down to bad reporting unfavorable to my theory and leave it that, regardless of what case it is about. I always try to get back as far as I can to track down the original source for a statement - that's why I asked for a source.
 
  • #148
The PJS are not looking at any one else in connection with this. IMO the McCanns know EXACTLY where she is ..and its laughable after all this time there now asking the residents of Praia de Luz for help when the locals all believe the parents to be involved - and .. if any DID know anything why would they tell the McCanns of all people?

My guess is that the fund is getting short of money and needs filling up
 
  • #149
Dictionary check Isabella:rolleyes:


The fact that a child is missing IS evidence of being kidnapped. It's very fundamental and essential evidence.

Dictionary.com - Evidence (noun) Ground for belief

It is not evidence of a kidnapping. It is a fact only that the child has gone missing. In fact, absent a ransom note or other witnesses present at the time of the abduction, it has no precedence over any other theory for the cause. The effect is merely the missing child. The cause is unknown.

The effect of a child missing may be due to the cause of kidnapping, but statistically speaking, the absence of a missing child is far more likely to be due to parental act than anything else. So if police begin with a leaning towards parental involvement, they are at least backed up by statistics.

And yes, I do very much believe that two parents, who find one child lost ("Gone" as Kate said) beyond recovery, could logically analyze the situation and under the fear and grief and trauma, find it reasonable to do something like hide their daughter's death to save their other two children.

Desperate people do unbelievable things to save their children. Anybody who has read Holocaust accounts knows that desperate people can do unbelievable things. The McCanns are well aware of the nightmares of "care" in Great Britain, which we call foster care here in the U.S. They know what government bureaucracy can be like.

They were not willing to bet losing the twins on the government acts of two countries.

If you think that two doctors could not make a rational (in their mind) decision like that under stress, then perhaps you do not know enough doctors.

And as well: The existence of some false stories about the McCanns does not mean ALL negative facts or articles about them are false. That is a logical fallacy. If I falsely say you are a drunk, that does not mean you are not perhaps a liar but not a drunk. The two facts exist independently of each other.

Or as Mr. Texana says, "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then."
 
  • #150
Trust me, newspapers do not simply remove stories because someone asks them to. Two newspapers - the Express and the Star (both trashy tabloids) removed stories which they acknowledged were false.

They most certainly do when the person behind getting other publications to remove their stories is a former Cabinet-level person.

Here's how it works in real life: "Company A was sued and had to pay out X$$$$ for their stories on the Smiths."

"Remove all our stories on the Smiths."

"But they're factual and true!"

"We're not going to take that chance. It will cost us more in legal fees than its worth. Take everything off now."

And it's done.

It's the hassle and cost factor: If you know it's going to cost you time and money to deal with a potential problem that you can make go away quietly and easily now, you do that.

I'm really surprised that anyone doesn't get that in today's world, but perhaps not everyone deals with litigation issues on a daily basis and so still doesn't get that the threat of lawsuits alone will make even people who acted responsibly and correctly, try to ward off lawsuits.

(Spend several days in depositions and you will change that perspective, I think.)
 
  • #151
Respectfully snipped....
do something like hide their daughter's death to save their other two children.

Desperate people do unbelievable things to save their children.

They were not willing to bet losing the twins on the government acts of two countries.

And as well: The existence of some false stories about the McCanns does not mean ALL negative facts or articles about them are false. That is a logical fallacy. If I falsely say you are a drunk, that does not mean you are not perhaps a liar but not a drunk. The two facts exist independently of each other.
Regarding the twins! The problem with this theory is the McCanns new they hadn't broken the law.

As for the highlight above. Have any of the negative "facts" :waitasec: or articles about the McCanns been confirmed as true?
As in "evidence" against them - not opinion.
 
  • #152
Nope. It came out later. I'm posting it here to clear it up otherwise this will become another "fact":-

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/madeleinemccann/Gerry-McCann-came-close-to.3329263.jp

But over the months since Madeleine's disappearance he has become increasingly convinced that the intruder was already in the flat.

"He believes there was certainly something odd," a friend said today. "The bedroom door was ajar when he got in and he thought: 'That's strange'. He went into the room, checked that Madeleine was still asleep in bed; she was and he came out, closed the door.

"Initially he thought that she might have got up and gone to the toilet or gone to get a drink or something but now he thinks that the abductor must have been in there hiding."

The friend added: "He believes he came in, opened the door and didn't have time to close it [as he went to hide before Gerry arrived].

"Once Gerry had left he would have known he had to come out very quickly and because Gerry went out through the patio door, went out through the window. He has no proof but that is what he believes."

And this is a perfect example of how innocent remarks can be twisted, and added to, in order to make false accusations.
 
  • #153
Respectfully snipped....Regarding the twins! The problem with this theory is the McCanns new they hadn't broken the law.

As for the highlight above. Have any of the negative "facts" :waitasec: or articles about the McCanns been confirmed as true?
As in "evidence" against them - not opinion.


Actually - that would depend on how Madeleine died wouldnt it? Or how long she had been dead for even?

And the fact is although it may be ok for you..for people to leave there children for hours ( and yes they did this) to the majority of people it simply is not ok.
 
  • #154
And this is a perfect example of how innocent remarks can be twisted, and added to, in order to make false accusations.


No..its a perfect example of how he changed his story :rolleyes:
 
  • #155
Actually - that would depend on how Madeleine died wouldnt it? Or how long she had been dead for even?

And the fact is although it may be ok for you..for people to leave there children for hours ( and yes they did this) to the majority of people it simply is not ok.
So you know Madeleine is dead. :waitasec:
I'm sure the PJ would be interested to hear your "evidence" as they didn't find any.

And it's clear you don't know me Isabella as I have said many times I don't like the baby listening system. I can easily separate baby listening though from the cruel accusations that the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.

And it's a "fact" baby listening is legal in Europe, widely used and still being offered - even now. As can be confirmed by google!!

So even though many people may not aprove of it - there are still many people who still do.
 
  • #156
So you know Madeleine is dead. :waitasec:
I'm sure the PJ would be interested to hear your "evidence" as they didn't find any.

And it's clear you don't know me Isabella as I have said many times I don't like the baby listening system. I can easily separate baby listening though from the cruel accusations that the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance.

And it's a "fact" baby listening is legal in Europe, widely used and still being offered - even now. As can be confirmed by google!!

So even though many people may not aprove of it - there are still many people who still do.

Personally speaking i dont believe its as wide spread as you believe it is - and IF it used a lot..its confined to specific hotels that Mark Warner use. I have maybe stayed in Spain Majorca Greece Cyprus etc around 25-30 times and i have never ONCE seen this advertised. Not a single time. I have in fact asked a friend of mines grandmother about this ( she has shares in a hotel chain in Spain) and shes horrified that any hotel would let this happen.

As she just commented to me - hotel bedrooms get broken into all the time so who would be careless enough to leave there children there?
 
  • #157
Personally speaking i dont believe its as wide spread as you believe it is - and IF it used a lot..its confined to specific hotels that Mark Warner use. I have maybe stayed in Spain Majorca Greece Cyprus etc around 25-30 times and i have never ONCE seen this advertised. Not a single time. I have in fact asked a friend of mines grandmother about this ( she has shares in a hotel chain in Spain) and shes horrified that any hotel would let this happen.

As she just commented to me - hotel bedrooms get broken into all the time so who would be careless enough to leave there children there?
Google will show you different.
 
  • #158
This is what I think happened to Madeleine.

I think she was kidnapped by someone who was aware that holidaymakers at the resort were inclined to put the children to bed and then go and eat at the restaurant.

It isn't easy to snatch a child of that age because they are usually with a parent or responsible adult. Taking a child from its own home is risky because a child of that age is rarely left alone in the house and certainly not on a regular basis such that a pattern could be established. Also, private residences often have alarm systems or family pets. A stranger would also stand out in a residential area.

The holiday apartments are basic. There wouldn't be family pets or a burglar alarm. Not just that - the neighbours wouldn't have dogs either and they wouldn't report a srange face. The abductor could easily walk around the apartments and familiarise himself with layouts and habits without drawing attention to himself. Resorts are full of transient holidaymakers who stay for a week or a few days and then disappear.

The McCann apartment was secluded at the back and afforded a great deal of privacy for anyone who wanted to hide and wait for their "big moment". The rear of the apartment is enclosed by a wall and mature trees. Not only that, but there is a smaller wall closer to the apartment which would provide additional protection from any passers-by. The rear of the apartment also faces onto the road and would provide an easy escape route by car.

I think the kidnap was planned. I don't think Madeleine was specifically singled out from the perspective of being Madeleine McCann, but I think she may have fitted the bill of being the right age, sex and living in a convenient apartment. I think she was "acquired". I also think the abductor may have been watching and waiting for the right moment for a few weeks. There were reports of a man hanging around and an attempted break during the days and weeks before Madeleine's abduction.

It was well known that British and Dutch holidaymakers were inclined to use Baby Listening services so that the parents could eat or drink in the bar. I think the abductor saw that as providing an ideal opportunity to take a child.

So, if someone wanted a child to use for whatever purpose, this would provide an ideal and comparatively low risk opportunity to acquire one.

I think the abductor watched to see who was coming and going and that he entered the apartment and was out again in a flash. I don't think she died in the apartment although she may have been quietened in some way in case she wakened and started screaming.

I think if we hadn't been reading about Madeleine McCann, we would have been reading about some other child.

I don't think this is beyond the realms of possibility. I don't know whether her abductor is also her captor or whether she was abducted "to order".

I also think it's entirely possible that the abductor had a key. Plenty of people had access to keys:-

  • cleaners
  • previous occupants
  • maintenance staff

These apartments often have master keys too. I'd be looking at people who had access to keys. I'd also be wanting to see any cctv footage during the previous weeks.

I know there was an appeal for holiday photos taken by people who had been at the resort during the weeks prior to the abduction. I don't know if this was done or if they were studied to look for the same man or woman appearing in photos taken during different weeks. I do think it's possible the abductor was a woman. I wouldn't ignore Jane Tanner's eye-witness testmony, but I wouldn't exclude everything else on the basis of it either.

I think it's likely that her abductor or a person who facilitated the abduction has a connection with Praia da Luz. Not necessarily a local, but perhaps someone who worked there temporarily.

Is she alive?

I don't think she was murdered straight away. I don't discount the possibility that she may have been murdered later and I worry that her coloboma would have been the reason for that - too easily identifiable. I think she was abducted either for purposes of abuse or adoption. If it were the latter, her coloboma would make her too "hot". However, sick and perverse though it may be, we know there are people who keep human captives for their own sick pleasures and that some of them manage to do this successfully for decades (Fritzl & others). I've personally heard of about five such cases in the last couple of years. Therefore, it is entirely possible that Madeleine is being held captive in a house somewhere and that she may be discovered some day through pure chance as some of the other captives were. When you think about it, when we hear about Shannon Matthews, Fritzl's daughter was still being held captive so to was this latest Italian one. How many others? Maybe more than we think.

I think this is what her parents are working on. They need people to believe she may be alive and to be vigilant. Who knows what secrets your neighbours are keeping? Madeleine's abductor may be a kidnapper and even a paedophile, but he may not be a murderer. Had it not been for her eye, her changing appearance as she grew would make her increasingly harder to identify, therefore, her captor would have two options - kill her or hide her and if he's not a murderer, he would take steps to do the latter.

When news of Fritzl broke, some of the neighbours were shocked but for others, some things started to make sense. That's what we need to think about. Madeleine could be anywhere in the world by now. If her abductor took her by car, she could have been at a marina before her parents could raise the alarm and in Africa the following day - sooner if a powerboat were used. If the person who "ordered" her has money, she could even have been taken by yacht to America.

If people are convinced that Madeleine was killed by her parents, they won't be looking for her as a potential captive. How awful would that be? Someone sees something suspicious but they think "Nah, can't be anything to do with Madeleine McCann - she was killed by her parents." and they dismiss it.

That is what I feel. I know it's jumbled and I apologise for that, but it's a brainstorm of what I think happened.
 
  • #159
Danielle Cramer - 1 year
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_11768.aspx


Elisabeth Fritzl & her children - 25 years
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/eu...lar/index.html


Laura Mongelli - 25 years? (Still under investigation)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1656647.html


Elizabeth Smart - 9 months
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart


Shannon Matthews - 24 days
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ja...ws-mother-jail


Shawn Hornbeck 4+ years
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...alive_and.html


Natasha Kampusch - 8 years
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin...cgi?read=92265

ETA - Removed name - victim not found alive.

Carol Smith - 7 years
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/c...ave/index.html

In quite a few of these cases, it was a vigilant member of the public who contacted the police and thus saved the victim.
 
  • #160
There is another theory, that Madeleine wakened up and wandered off in search of her parents and that she was snatched by someone opportunistically.

Do I think it's possible? Yes I do think this is feasible. However, I also think it would be more likely that she would be killled in this scenario because it would mean the snatching was unplanned and that the abductor would be unprepared. I think in this case, it is more likely that she would be abused, killed and dumped within a short period of time.

However, I think is is less likely that she wandered off because I think she'd find it difficult to open a door and I think there would be more chance that other people would notice a small child wandering the streets in her pjs. It would be terribly unlucky if the only person she encountered was a child abductor/killer.

I think that there is a good chance she is still alive if her abduction was a carefully planned "hit".

Another possibility is that whomever took her intended burglary and opportunistically took the child instead. There is some belief that David Westerfield may not have entered the vanDam home with the express intention of taking Danielle.

If criminals can plan burglaries, watch the homes to monitor the movements of the occupants and target vulnerable houses - i.e. no pets, secluded back gardens, discernible routine of occupants ... why not a child abductor?
 
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