MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[SCHMAE]

I see and agree with Bessie's point. We've had many heated discussions in recent cases about race . Some of those threads were closed because we could not stay on track. This case is not about race. This case is about treatment of detained citizens of the United States. That means how you and I are treated while detained, not just FG. Some times police arrest innocent people and charges are dropped or they are acquitted at trial. Police do not decide who is guilty or not . Judges and juries do. So to me the entire conversation around the knife is moot. Whether he had it, held it, sold it or whether it was 4 , 6 or 12 inches long does not matter. Once detained and in police custody WE are all given the right to LIVE through that experience. Whatever actions FG took prior to being detained do not really matter to me. That is not at issue.

ETA I guess part of my point is it seems like a lot of posts about this knife . I wonder if thinking he had an illegal knife if that somehow makes it less horrific that he died in police custody.
For the record , I am not at all sure the LEO's are guilty of the charges brought against them. I doubt if we will ever know the truth of what happened in that van. Did FG thrash about and injure himself? Did the driver ' rough ride' him on purpose to shut him up ? Did any of the LEO's try to help and others hushed them? Lots of questions but for me the questions begin once he is in the van and have nothing to do with what FG was doing before detainment.

 

[DebinGA]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...1_violent-crime-violent-offenders-city-speech

The Mayor may be popular (or not, I don't actually know) but her policies seem to have done nothing to quell the violence in her city or improve the lives of her constituents.

The bottom of the page at that link contains the obituary for Ofc. Goodson's mother: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...t-worker-fulton-baptist-church-human-services

 

[SStarr33]

re: seat belting prisoners

http://www.leagle.com/decision/2004752324FSupp2d428_1697.xml/CARRASQUILLO v. CITY OF NEW YORK

 

[Elley Mae]

I see and agree with Bessie's point. We've had many heated discussions in recent cases about race . Some of those threads were closed because we could not stay on track. This case is not about race. This case is about treatment of detained citizens of the United States. That means how you and I are treated while detained, not just FG. Some times police arrest innocent people and charges are dropped or they are acquitted at trial. Police do not decide who is guilty or not . Judges and juries do. So to me the entire conversation around the knife is moot. Whether he had it, held it, sold it or whether it was 4 , 6 or 12 inches long does not matter. Once detained and in police custody WE are all given the right to LIVE through that experience. Whatever actions FG took prior to being detained do not really matter to me. That is not at issue.

ETA I guess part of my point is it seems like a lot of posts about this knife . I wonder if thinking he had an illegal knife if that somehow makes it less horrific that he died in police custody.
For the record , I am not at all sure the LEO's are guilty of the charges brought against them. I doubt if we will ever know the truth of what happened in that van. Did FG thrash about and injure himself? Did the driver ' rough ride' him on purpose to shut him up ? Did any of the LEO's try to help and others hushed them? Lots of questions but for me the questions begin once he is in the van and have nothing to do with what FG was doing before detainment.

For me the importance of the knife is the fact that it was not visible to LE that it was a switchblade(the clasp was visible not the knife)and I am on the side of it was not a switchblade. Anyway I for one do not want to think that a visible clasp of a knife in a pocket is not reason for a search without a warrant. I know that he had been in trouble in the past but that did not give reason for him to have to run when he saw (made eye contact) with LE, and LE should not be able to pursue because someone runs off because eye contact was made. If he had been doing something illegal that is one thing but from what I have seen it's not there. Back to the knife, It will not surprise me if it is nothing more than a play on words, automatic-spring versus spring-assist. Have to wait and see. jmo idk

 

[Elley Mae]

Gray initially fled "unprovoked upon noticing police presence," according to the original charging documents. After a chase, officers "noticed a knife clipped to the inside of his front right pants pocket."

The knife was recovered, the report says, and "found to be a spring-assisted, one hand operated knife." In Baltimore, it is illegal to carry a switchblade.

http://www.businessinsider.com/prosecutor-says-no-reason-to-arrest-freddie-gray-2015-5

"A lot of knives that you can have tend to look like knives that you can't," Steve Zeidman, a CUNY law professor and police reform advocate, told Business Insider. "You can't justify what you did by what you found after."

 

[SStarr33]

Andrew Branca at Legal Insurrection has another great write up about the law in this case.

 

[kaen]

Once detained and in police custody WE are all given the right to LIVE through that experience. Whatever actions FG took prior to being detained do not really matter to me. That is not at issue.

ETA I guess part of my point is it seems like a lot of posts about this knife . I wonder if thinking he had an illegal knife if that somehow makes it less horrific that he died in police custody.

Lots of questions but for me the questions begin once he is in the van and have nothing to do with what FG was doing before detainment.

snipped with respect

I agree. I would hope if my children or loved ones were ever detained that they had a 100 percent chance of clearing their name or living with the consequences of their behavior.

In Baltimore, even the police higher-ups have acknowledged rough rides and a failure to provide medical care. Watching CNN last night as the police were videotaping the most recent arrestees and noting the care taken to put those arrested in the vans, I am certain that it is possible to ensure that those taken into custody are delivered safely. Also, there were firefighters and EMTs called to the scene for medical needs.

Thanks for your post.

 

[dandy]

re: seat belting prisoners

http://www.leagle.com/decision/2004752324FSupp2d428_1697.xml/CARRASQUILLO v. CITY OF NEW YORK

very interesting . . . from your link

Furthermore, while the Second Circuit has not specifically dealt with the issue of seatbelts in state or municipal vehicles, two other Courts of Appeals have held that a municipality's decision not to provide prisoners with seatbelts does not violate prisoners' federal rights. The Eighth Circuit has held that a municipality's "decision to use patrol wagons without seatbelts" was lawful, since it was based on the legitimate penological concern that detained "individuals transported in the wagon, even those who were handcuffed, could use the seatbelt as a weapon to harm an officer, other passengers being transported in the wagon, or even themselves." Spencer v. Knapheide Truck Equip. Co., 183 F.3d 902, 907 (8th Cir.1999). The Tenth Circuit
[324 F.Supp.2d 438]
has noted that "a failure to seatbelt does not, of itself, expose an inmate to risks of constitutional dimension" because the "eventuality of an accident is not hastened or avoided by whether an inmate is seatbelted." Dexter v. Ford Motor Co., 92 Fed.Appx. 637, 641 (10th Cir.2004) (unpublished opinion).

Plaintiff tries to bolster his claim by noting that New York State law requires seatbelts on busses. While this may help his tort claim against the City in State court, it is irrelevant to whether denial of seatbelts to prisoners violates prisoners' constitutional or federal rights. Accordingly, this claim against the City is dismissed.

 

[Nana]

Do school buses have seat belts?

 

[Sonya610]

The various stories in the news do have to have an impact on attitudes regarding the police.
Seeing as how I am a sane, law abiding citizen, and fully capable of following simple instructions stated in English I do not worry about being shot as a result of grappling with the police, or running from them etc...

I can say that while I am not at all concerned about police encounters in public I am disturbed by the shooting incidents that happen during welfare checks, or when the police are called to a house due to a home intruder etc.... The woman shot in her garage after defending her home from an intruder, the man shot when he opened the door at 2:30 AM during a "welfare check", that stuff is scary.

Makes me think that the police are the LAST FOLKS I would want to call to my home during a crisis. I am not saying it is all their fault, they are obviously under a lot of stress, but nevertheless I would worry that any sort of excitement could turn them into loose cannons.

 

[Footwarrior]

Gray initially fled "unprovoked upon noticing police presence," according to the original charging documents. After a chase, officers "noticed a knife clipped to the inside of his front right pants pocket."

The knife was recovered, the report says, and "found to be a spring-assisted, one hand operated knife." In Baltimore, it is illegal to carry a switchblade.

http://www.businessinsider.com/prosecutor-says-no-reason-to-arrest-freddie-gray-2015-5

"A lot of knives that you can have tend to look like knives that you can't," Steve Zeidman, a CUNY law professor and police reform advocate, told Business Insider. "You can't justify what you did by what you found after."

This case has me wondering if Baltimore expects officers to meet some kind of arrest quota. Freddie was chased for almost no reason. Once he was loaded into the prisoner transport van, the van stayed in the area. But at that time no officer had a prisoner awaiting transport.

 

[SugarQueen]

I question the knife because of the way Baltimore's law is worded. Although a spring assist knife is not a true switchblade it DOES fit the switchblade description written in Baltimore's own law. There are dozens of articles, and blogs, and message boards debating spring assist vs switchblade with laws written just like this one. For every article posted that says spring assist is legal there is one that says it isn't. The conversations started way before this current issue.
Some of the officers charges are based on the legalities of that knife. I think that makes the knife pretty darn important. It has NOTHING to do with feeling better about the way FG was treated. Honestly, I find that a bit insulting.
I'd like to hear someone else who has seen the knife describe it. I'd also like to know how baltimore has treated spring assist knives in the past few years. I think the court will have to decide if it is legal or not. Whatever the court decides , the law needs to be clear. Currently it is not.

 

[SCHMAE]

Do school buses have seat belts?

Nope, but they're perfectly safe without them. Just ask any school district

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

The finger-pointing has started...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

 

[dandy]

i incorrectly stated last nite that it was the "former" mayor who vetoed police cams - quote: But Rawlings-Blake said she would veto the bill. The city's Legal Department has said that the legislation is illegal, and the mayor has raised concerns. She said while she supports the measure in principle, the current bill does not address privacy rights and data retention, and she has a lot of concerns about the way it's written.

"I don't want to have to send things back to them for them to get their job right, but when they don't get it right, I have to be the chief executor for our city, and I can't sign legislation that I think is sending the wrong message to our citizens," Rawlings-Blake said.

The mayor has set up a work group to look into the proposed body camera program.

She has until the City Council meeting on Jan. 26 to veto the bills, or they become law.
http://www.wbaltv.com/news/city-council-to-vote-on-plastic-bag-ban-police-body-cameras/29770922



it did pass = her advisory committee gave the ok. . . . they're gonna "test" them later this year . . . and thankfully the mayor's privacy concerns have been satisfied. bbm

The small cameras are planned for a pilot program at first. One hundred officers will be chosen to test out different cameras and record every interaction they have with the public—but must let you know when the camera is recording and give you an option to have it turned off.

“I think the public will like most that we put policy recommendations in place that will protect their privacy,” said Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/02/18/task-force-recommends-city-officers-to-wear-body-cameras/

ummm . . . they're gonna have to say this before they do anything else?????

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I question the knife because of the way Baltimore's law is worded. Although a spring assist knife is not a true switchblade it DOES fit the switchblade description written in Baltimore's own law. There are dozens of articles, and blogs, and message boards debating spring assist vs switchblade with laws written just like this one. For every article posted that says spring assist is legal there is one that says it isn't. The conversations started way before this current issue.
Some of the officers charges are based on the legalities of that knife. I think that makes the knife pretty darn important. It has NOTHING to do with feeling better about the way FG was treated. Honestly, I find that a bit insulting.
I'd like to hear someone else who has seen the knife describe it. I'd also like to know how baltimore has treated spring assist knives in the past few years. I think the court will have to decide if it is legal or not. Whatever the court decides , the law needs to be clear. Currently it is not.

I believe the law about knives in that State (& City too) was written ambiguously on purpose to allow for interpretation & wiggle-room.....which I'm not a fan of but I've seen it before.

Also, what are you finding out about concealed-carry knife laws for that city & also regarding how they have been applied? Does it matter if the accused is on probation or has outstanding warrants for his arrests?

I've seen conflicting reports on the application/interpretation of them which is confusing (& which might be the intention, iykwim?)

 

[Elley Mae]

The finger-pointing has started...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

LOL The driver is crying because the other ones didn't seatbelt him in? He's the driver, if you are driving a car and the passenger isn't seat belted in who is responsible? He has the most charges and besides I thought the cat had his tongue. jmo idk

 

[Nana]

The finger-pointing has started...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Then I must wonder why didn't he strap him in, he was standing right there.
Or he could have at any one of his stops.

 

[Nana]

Why did he just turn himself in today, why not on Friday or why didn't they arrest him?
From the link
It says he turned himself in today.

 

[jjenny]

Then I must wonder why didn't he strap him in, he was standing right there.
Or he could have at any one of his stops.

My understanding of daily mail article is that the rules call for arresting officers to belt the suspect in, no the driver.