MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[ohreally]

Yes there is room to help an unresponsive prisoner. He was not unresponsive till the last stop. What the problem is, is reaching over a prisoner acting out that may bite an officer. Passing on to an officer aides or such.

 

[Woodland]

She should have ordered the police to allow peaceful protesters to continue what they were doing however, the first person to throw a brick or break a window should have been arrested---and the 2nd one and the 3rd one............................. If they had been allowed to arrest people who started causing destruction, it could have been nipped in the bud instead of allowing it to escalate and making it clear nothing would be done about it.

Why even send officers out? They weren't allowed to stop the violence or arrest anyone. They were just there to stand and let the crowd throw things at them, spit on them, and yell profanities at them.

Arrest someone? How? Dead or alive once they reach the police station?

 

[katydid23]

Arrest someone? How? Dead or alive once they reach the police station?

You do understand that only .005% of arrests end up in a struggle to the death, correct?

 

[SStarr33]

From the beginning I always thought that if the mayor ordered LE to stand down the first night of rioting (something I haven't actually seen verified) it was to prevent LE from opening fire on the crowd. Something, that imo, would have happened without a stand down order.

I think she saved more than she sacrificed. A leader always comes under fire after the fact. What's missing in the discussion about that stand down order, imo, is what should she have ordered and what would the possible consequences have been?

LOL, when was the last time you heard of a group of LE officers opening fire on a crowd?

<modsnip>

 

[KaaBoom]

[/FONT]"The biggest danger is that the police officer will not properly perform his duties," said Robert Leight, a former detective in Pennsylvania who has worked for the FBI and as a federal prosecutor and defense attorney. "It puts him at risk, it puts the other officers around him at risk, and it puts the public at risk. ... A police officer must react instinctively as he has been trained. If a police officer first thinks about what liabilities he will be facing, it's too late."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/country-police-scrutinized-baltimore-arrests-30751981
[/SIZE]

Good. Right now police are 28 times more likely to stop and search black people. Until the number gets to about 1 to 1, I'm not going to be too concerned about that being a problem. The lengths some people will go through to justify discrimination.

 

[katydid23]

Good. Right now police are 28 times more likely to stop and search black people. Until the number gets to about 1 to 1, I'm not going to be too concerned about that being a problem. The lengths some people will go through to justify discrimination.

Do you think black teens and white teens carry weapons in equal numbers?

 

[LietKynes]

oh my god, what the heck happened here.

"His take-down and arrest without probable cause occurred under a police video camera, which taped everything including the police dragging and throwing Freddy into a police vehicle while he screamed in pain," Murphy said in a statement, adding that Gray's spine was 80 percent severed at his neck while in police custody.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/healthy-baltimore-man-dies-after-being-restrained-police-n344506

RSBM

Emphasis mine

So then this is a FACT, right ? Neither speculation nor conjecture ? nbcnews.com can for a certainty back this up ?
I didn't know everything was on tape. Police video at that. So , they must have had video from inside the van---which begs the question why it hasn't been released.

Up until now, the only footage we had was from the bystander. (I thought)

:moo:

 

[Falcon500]

Good. Right now police are 28 times more likely to stop and search black people. Until the number gets to about 1 to 1, I'm not going to be too concerned about that being a problem. The lengths some people will go through to justify discrimination.

And in the inner city a black male is 28 times more likely to carrying a weapon or to commit a vionent crime.

 

[K_Z]

From the beginning I always thought that if the mayor ordered LE to stand down the first night of rioting (something I haven't actually seen verified) it was to prevent LE from opening fire on the crowd. Something, that imo, would have happened without a stand down order.

I think she saved more than she sacrificed. A leader always comes under fire after the fact. What's missing in the discussion about that stand down order, imo, is what should she have ordered and what would the possible consequences have been?

I definitely don't think she saved more than she sacrificed Monday. She sent police out as sitting ducks, tied their hands, and told them to watch. That's incomprehensible. She's incredibly lucky (as are the officers) that scores of officers were not ambushed or gunned down.

She should have assertively authorized ALL available less-lethal riot control force weapons, including water cannons-- which I simply can't comprehend that some say "violate" a rioter's "rights". GMAFB. Against ANYONE in the riot control area of operations, after sufficient announcements and notice to leave immediately. She has encouraged the rioters and stood with professional agitators every step of this crisis-- that is corrupt and appalling, IMO. She is not a city servant, IMO. Her behavior is criminal and unethical. She is responsible for every bit of Monday's destruction, IMO, because she encouraged it, and tied the police's hands. Incomprehensible.

Here is a discussion of the many forms of less-lethal weapons that can be used in riot control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-lethal_weapon#Gases_and_sprays

She should have ordered processing units set up to accept hundreds of arrestees.

She should have ordered police to escalate the less lethal weapons until control is achieved. Arrest every single one of the rioters, after announcing that police will do so. Anyone who doesn't immediately leave the area is a rioter, and subject to arrest and force that can escalate up to, and including, lethal force. IMO. There should have been HUNDREDS of arrests Monday night-- not merely a few dozen.

I have absolutely no problem with lethal force in a riot situation. If escalating less-lethal force doesn't get things under control, move on to lethal force, IMO. The life of a rioter is not worth any loss of life of law enforcement, or innocent bystanders.

These situations need to be managed as military policing encounters, with command and control, declared areas of operations, and rules of engagement, specified in state laws, IMO. Right now, there are too many patchwork levels of decision makers, of varying levels of competence. Someone like Mayor Stephanie Rawlings is completely incompetent to make policing decisions in a riot-- as is the city council, IMO.

Anything less is impotent, and leaves the general law abiding public at too much risk. When you can turn on the TV, and an American city looks like a violent, third world country with no functioning governmental structure-- then you have to use measures that are needed in urban terrorism and urban warfare, IMO.

A domestic riot is urban terrorism and urban warfare, IMO. It's not a "protest"-- it's out-of-control criminal warfare behavior, and should be treated as such. IMO. Let the military train the police. We NEED militarization of police in these kind of circumstances, IMO.

Roll tanks down the street, spray rioters with water cannons, use it all. If you are a rioter in a declared riot zone, you agree to forfeit your "civil rights" (lol!), and agree that you just might lose your life. IMO.

I'm sick of watching cities burn at the hands of violent, impulsive criminals, and those in charge wringing their hands over the criminal rioter's "rights". The police have to enforce the peace, and stop the violence-- whatever it takes. That's my opinion. This really cannot continue. It terrifies me, and infuriates me that this is happening over and over-- and escalating.

<end rant.> (Sorry for the long emotional outburst!)

 

[Woodland]

She should have ordered the police to allow peaceful protesters to continue what they were doing however, the first person to throw a brick or break a window should have been arrested---and the 2nd one and the 3rd one............................. If they had been allowed to arrest people who started causing destruction, it could have been nipped in the bud instead of allowing it to escalate and making it clear nothing would be done about it.

Why even send officers out? They weren't allowed to stop the violence or arrest anyone. They were just there to stand and let the crowd throw things at them, spit on them, and yell profanities at them.

Sugar coating imo. LE had a hate on for the scrutiny they were under - with a handy gun at their hip. That hate on has become more apparent since that night - anonymous interviews - please. Imo, the mayor did the right thing to prevent further loss of life. She seems strong enough to ignore the belittling that comes with such a decision. What always baffles me is, the belittling always comes from those claiming to be LE supporters.

The world is watching as per many MSM articles. The next time the USA wants to be a hero in another country, save oppressed people, pull oppressed people from unwanted harm/tyranny - well ... good luck - you have had many problems with this in the last ten + years. Americans abroad can do without the perceived tyranny at home imo. When the USS Cole was bombed, many Americans I was acquainted with in Dubai suddenly did not want to be American - a very sad thing I thought at the time. Can see it even more now. Jmo.

 

[Bravo]

Yes^ not to mention those that lost their place of residence and their businesses. Easy to say stand down when it's not your neighborhood being destroyed. That was pathetically sad to watch.

 

[Woodland]

So you believe the police would have opened fire and gunned down hoards of people if the mayor had NOT told them to let them loot? Wow....

Grant it...it would have been quite impressive if they had done that, but they wouldn't have.

I wonder what the mayor would have said if the looters were breaking into HER home to steal and burn the place to the ground? And what would she have said if she had family members including a baby in the building when it was set on fire? Like the poor family that owned the liquor store?

That in fact happened. Would she have said "They only meant to destroy property so it isn't a big deal"???

Normally I would ask for a link that the mayor told LE to let people loot - but would consider it a waste of time.

 

[katydid23]

The Mayor prevented loss of life? She almost got a young couple and their infant burned alive in their apartment above their looted store. She is responsible for the 15 injured officers too, imo.

 

[Woodland]

You do understand that only .005% of arrests end up in a struggle to the death, correct?

How many people is that - only? According to statistics presented in the first thread, 2 + people per day died while being arrested between 2003 and 2009 in the US. How many are killed by drunk drivers? Drunk driving stated the MADD movement. Not seeing a difference.

 

[LietKynes]

Exactly. Couple that with direct orders from the mayor to let the rioters destroy property, and stand down.

I honestly have no idea anymore why any police officers are willing to go into these dangerous zones and neighborhoods. Especially white officers. Why even do it? The crooks and gangs all want to kill them, and their supervisory chain scapegoats them and neuters them. The cynical side of me says there is no effective way to police in these kinds of neighborhoods. Maybe we should just stop trying. Save the people who want to get out and try to live a decent, law abiding life. Help those who will help themselves. Build a big fence around the rest, and make those un policed zones. Let the crooks all kill each other and burn and loot whatever's left. It's becoming harder and harder for me to see the crooks, gang bangers, and rioters as even human. They have depersonalized themselves by their own behavior, IMO. I can't even begin to muster any sympathy for them.

It's very frustrating that any police officer has to deal with these people day after day, just waiting for some crooked political tinder to ignite and ruin their lives. I can believe many would just stand by and let the criminals do whatever they want.

I think every single one of the looted businesses, vandalized property owners, everyone who was a victim of the incompetent and corrupt Mayor's decision to have police stand down, should file a hundreds of million dollars class action lawsuit against the Mayor and the city of Baltimore. I think the mayor should face criminal charges herself, IMO. I just can't believe this level of corruption is happening in my country. This is not the kind of America I served for, for so many years. This is shameful and disgraceful.

SABBM

When the 'thanks' button just doesn't do it !!
VERY well-said. I was talking to my hubby about this and he said about the same thing.
To the violent nere-do-wells whose main passion in life is harming people and property : Very well, then . We (LE) will leave ; and you are responsible for your own 'policing'. Let us see how far that gets you.
Smh.

What do criminals in this country want ? Do they want a society that allows innocent people (who live a different lifestyle) be dragged off and thrown from a roof and then stoned to death ?
Insanity.
:moo:

 

[katydid23]

How many people is that - only? According to statistics presented in the first thread, 2 + people per day died while being arrested between 2003 and 2009 in the US. How many are killed by drunk drivers? Drunk driving stated the MADD movement. Not seeing a difference.

The vast majority of the people who die during arrest do so with a gun in their hands. I will look for a link.

 

[Woodland]

The Mayor prevented loss of life? She almost got a young couple and their infant burned alive in their apartment above their looted store. She is responsible for the 15 injured officers too, imo.

A mayor is not responsible for the criminal actions of other people - this one hardly 'almost got' anyone burned alive. It's amazing to me what lengths people will go to, to further their opinion.

Where is the compromise? The middle ground? Appears to be none at the moment imo.

 

[Rocco]

Sugar coating imo. LE had a hate on for the scrutiny they were under - with a handy gun at their hip. That hate on has become more apparent since that night - anonymous interviews - please. Imo, the mayor did the right thing to prevent further loss of life. She seems strong enough to ignore the belittling that comes with such a decision. What always baffles me is, the belittling always comes from those claiming to be LE supporters.

The world is watching as per many MSM articles. The next time the USA wants to be a hero in another country, save oppressed people, pull oppressed people from unwanted harm/tyranny - well ... good luck - you have had many problems with this in the last ten + years. Americans abroad can do without the perceived tyranny at home imo. When the USS Cole was bombed, many Americans I was acquainted with in Dubai suddenly did not want to be American - a very sad thing I thought at the time. Can see it even more now. Jmo.

Well, you're right about the mayor ignoring the belittling that comes with her decision. She won't even answer questions about her decision that have been posed to her---she just ignores the questions---just like she ignored the calls from the governor who wanted to offer help before the city got destroyed.

 

[KaaBoom]

On a side note one of the stories featuring hte burned out CVS pharmacy mentioned that the city had worked hard to try and get larger stores (like grocery stores) to move into that neighborhood.

CVS is not likely to rebuild, and you can be sure no other large chains are going to open stores there any time soon. When the neighborhoods end up with only liquor stores and overpriced tiny corner stores, when they can't buy groceries or medications without traveling for miles, who are they gonna blame? Surely not themselves.

The "good" citizens of that community will suffer along with the bad, but then again the good citizens could have stood up and prevented some of the looting if they wanted to but they didn't, so I don't feel all that sorry for them.

If CVS decides not to reopen, it will be because they are not interested in serving that market. It's unlikely that one incident will effect that decision. Nothing like this has happened in over 40 years, and business has not poring into those neighborhoods in all those years without riots. Businesses go where people have money, and these people don't have money. So if they blame themselves for businesses not coming to their neighborhoods, they are wrong.

 

[Rocco]

A mayor is not responsible for the criminal actions of other people - this one hardly 'almost got' anyone burned alive. It's amazing to me what lengths people will go to, to further their opinion.

Where is the compromise? The middle ground? Appears to be none at the moment imo.

Of course she's responsible!! She's the one that ordered the police to stand down and let the rioters do whatever they wanted to do.