MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[katydid23]

Freddie Gray was truly in need.

But the problem for the officers is that so very many arrestees 'cry wolf.' Probably over half scream and yell as if they are injured. Probably over half say they need an EMT. Can the cops call for an ambulance every time a suspect asks for one?

We know that they had arrested FG dozens of times previously. What if, hypothetically speaking, he had screamed and asked for an EMT most of those prior times? Would that affect their decision this time?

If I had let my kids stay home from school every time they said they had a tummy ache or didn't feel good, they would never had made it to college. Sometimes you ignore it and assume it is a ruse.

 

[octobermoon]

But the problem for the officers is that so very many arrestees 'cry wolf.' Probably over half scream and yell as if they are injured. Probably over half say they need an EMT. Can the cops call for an ambulance every time a suspect asks for one?

We know that they had arrested FG dozens of times previously. What if, hypothetically speaking, he had screamed and asked for an EMT most of those prior times? Would that affect their decision this time?

If I had let my kids stay home from school every time they said they had a tummy ache or didn't feel good, they would never had made it to college. Sometimes you ignore it and assume it is a ruse.

They still didn't get him medical attention when he was non responsive, didn't even check for a pulse! I can find no excuse for that.

 

[katydid23]

They still didn't get him medical attention when he was non responsive, didn't even check for a pulse! I can find no excuse for that.

That was very wrong . I agree that was a bad decision on their part. But I am just saying that a cop cannot always tell who really needs a medic and who doesn't since a lot of suspects scream and yell when being arrested.

 

[CuriousGuy]

BBM

So you think that no one cares that 99.99anda half% of ALL arrests go off without hitch? Of course people care about that. In only .005% is there a lethal force unleashed.

And yes, I cannot find the original article I posted in the Ferguson thread, which broke down those specific 4000plus cases. But MOST were considered justified shootings, THUS IT FOLLOWS that the suspects were armed or fighting back in a potentially lethal fashion.

You do not need to take my word for it. If you would prefer to assume that all 4000plus were unarmed innocent kids, so be it. But somehow I believe that the NPR article would have pointed that out, don't you think?

The agitators certainly don't care. It ruins the narrative that LE is actively hunting down certain people.

 

[octobermoon]

That was very wrong . I agree that was a bad decision on their part. But I am just saying that a cop cannot always tell who really needs a medic and who doesn't since a lot of suspects scream and yell when being arrested.

This thread is about the death of Freddie Gray, by their neglect and goodness knows what else Freddie's death is on their hands. They had control and custody of his very being. It was their job to deliver him to the station alive. They failed miserably.

 

[bettybaby00]

I know, minutia, but in this case important too. Until I started reading about this I had no clue that "knives" were soooo complicated. I do have a swiss army knife in my backpack-my extent of knife knowledge.

But my reading is showing me this is a topic much discussed/debated and argued about in legal contexts. Here's info from a Maryland attorney:

http://www.mdtriallawyer.com/dangerous-weapon-possession.html

There are Maryland cases which demonstrate this has been the topic of litigation and is not some easy clear factual determination. Which again begs the question of WHY a prosecutor would take a position that would seemingly handicap law enforcement officers and benefit criminals. Normally the state argues for broader definition of dangerous weapons and argues for affording officers a good faith basis for declaring a knife illegal.

And the Baltimore City Code has broader language which seems to clearly make the type of weapon FG carried illegal in the city. Even if it were ambiguous how can that ambiguity make the arrest illegal? The question of whether a weapon fit the description would be a question of fact for the jury with the burden on the state to prove it was. Why would a prosecutor ever argue that an arrest was illegal based upon such an issue?

bbm most legal expert talking heads have pointed out that it's a house of cards, and why she likely will have major hurdles to overcome if she expects any of these charges to stick. Many different theories can and are being argued, and many believe the false arrest charges will never hold up.

whether or not all 6 go to trial and on what charges they might eventually face could potentionally reignite rioting all over again.

 

[CuriousGuy]

Bessie, I agree with you, and I will echo what Trident wrote.

I think the biggest frustration with this case, and other similar recent cases, is that the social outrage on both sides has little to nothing to do with the deceased victim, who in each case was also a violent criminal suspect. No one can speak freely, because of the shackles and the muzzle of political correctness-- not just on this board, but in other public arenas-- political correctness that only favors one point of view.

The entire situation is not at all about Freddie Gray, or excessive force by police, IMO, but an opportunistic exploitation of Freddie Gray and the police officers, as a predatory platform for social politics. JMO. Freddie Gray is a tool, exploited not for who he was, or how he died, IMO, but a tool to advance a social and political agenda.

The conversation would be most productive here, and in other public venues, if political correctness went out the window. Then we could get to the REAL issues, and what to do to improve things. JMO. IDK-- maybe a topic for the basement, member's only area?

This sums it up nicely. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[Rocco]

This thread is about the death of Freddie Gray, by their neglect and goodness knows what else Freddie's death is on their hands. They had control and custody of his very being. It was their job to deliver him to the station alive. They failed miserably.

There's simply no arguing with your post IMO. They did something to him OR he was thrashing around in the wagon, in which case SOMEONE should have restrained him. Either way, LE is responsible for his death. JMO

 

[Footwarrior]

<modsnip>

The office of the SA is staffed with people that actually know the law and exactly what knife was entered into evidence in the case against Freddie Gray.

The second guessing of the SA on this charge isn't really based on facts.

 

[katydid23]

This thread is about the death of Freddie Gray, by their neglect and goodness knows what else Freddie's death is on their hands. They had control and custody of his very being. It was their job to deliver him to the station alive. They failed miserably.

Of course they failed. They failed miserably. But I do feel it is important to put it into context. FG was arrested dozens of times. He never filed any complaints or accused the cops of harming him previously. Why this time did it go so wrong?

 

[Tawny]

Of course they failed. They failed miserably. But I do feel it is important to put it into context. FG was arrested dozens of times. He never filed any complaints or accused the cops of harming him previously. Why this time did it go so wrong?

What context do his prior arrests with no complaints put this into? Those arrests don't matter, because he didn't end up injured or dead during them. He DID end up injured and dead during THIS arrest. IMO, that is all that matters.

 

[Tawny]

self snip, inappropriate topic

 

[octobermoon]

Of course they failed. They failed miserably. But I do feel it is important to put it into context. FG was arrested dozens of times. He never filed any complaints or accused the cops of harming him previously. Why this time did it go so wrong?

We will have to wait for the answer to that. I was going ask if Maryland is like Florida...a sunshine state? KWIM where we get document dumps before trial?

 

[SCHMAE]

According to family he was reprimanded for a prisoner escaping from the van, so he must have been responsible for that yet he is saying that the officer's didn't and wouldn't let him seatbelt freddie in, I have a hard time believing that. If I am the driver of a police van/ paddy wagon I will be the one that secures the prisoners, if he was not allowed to do that, something needs to be changed cause that is a lame excuse for not belting prisoners in. jmo idk

To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing almost everything about it. I don't even know what happened and I don't even want to guess. I doubt if the arrest of FG is illegal. I doubt if LEO's did not know he was hurting. I doubt that someone said don't seat belt him. I doubt the previous account of the other prisoner in the van saying he was thrashing about. I doubt the more current story that it was a smooth , quiet ride. When you don't believe either version of events, what the heck are you supposed to think? All that I believe is that FG is deceased and he walked inside the van with his own two legs. That is in police custody, period. How, when , who , what , where .......... Good luck figuring that out and be very cautious about drawing an opinion because it's liable to change.

 

[katydid23]

What context do his prior arrests with no complaints put this into? Those arrests don't matter, because he didn't end up injured or dead during them. He DID end up injured and dead during THIS arrest. IMO, that is all that matters.

It matters IF, hypothetically speaking, he had screamed and yelled and asked for an EMT several times previously, and he was fine when he arrived at the station. It matters IF he had dragged his legs previously, and he was fine and able to walk with no problems. It matters IF he was never belted in and was fine when he arrived the previous dozen times. If those things were true, then the officers would have had reasons to believe that everything would be fine once again. JMO

 

[Tawny]

It matters IF, hypothetically speaking, he had screamed and yelled and asked for an EMT several times previously, and he was fine when he arrived at the station.

Well. DID he do that previously? Are there arrest reports that say this? Is there proof? Or are we assuming based on nothing?

 

[katydid23]

What context do his prior arrests with no complaints put this into? Those arrests don't matter, because he didn't end up injured or dead during them. He DID end up injured and dead during THIS arrest. IMO, that is all that matters.

They do mater, for the reason you just stated. He was arrested a dozen or more times without incident. And I assume he was not belted in then either. So why this time did he die?

 

[galiuro]

think the 'space to destroy' comment and whatever she meant by saying it is moot...her actions were WRONG whatever her words were...she should not have told the cops to stand down and once that decision went very badly she should have called in the Guard much sooner. Period.

 

[DebinGA]

They do mater, for the reason you just stated. He was arrested a dozen or more times without incident. And I assume he was not belted in then either. So why this time did he die?

Was he on parole/probation and this arrest would affect that, so he panicked and ran? Did he ingest drug/s he might have had on him as he ran, and they "kicked in" when he was alone in the van? Was the report of a bolt in the van matching his fatal injury true? So much we don't know and what we think we know may be wrong. Video of bike cops leading him to/into van seems unremarkable to me.

 

[corundogs]

think the 'space to destroy' comment and whatever she meant by saying it is moot...her actions were WRONG whatever her words were...she should not have told the cops to stand down and once that decision went very badly she should have called in the Guard much sooner. Period.

AFAIK, things went "very badly" Monday night. Tuesday the curfew was put in place and NG was there.

How "much sooner" could that have happened?