GUILTY MD - Korryn Gaines, 23, fatally shot by Baltimore police, 1 Aug 2016

I grew up in a suburb in Minnesota. I got the 'when you are pulled over' lecture from my truck-driving father. Roll down the window. Wait, with your hands in plain sight on the wheel. Answer yes, sir or no, sir. Tell them what you're going to do before you do it. I was born in 1956.

I am much older being born at the very end of 1946. I was taught the very same thing by my parents just like all of my friends were. Being respectful to anyone in authority is free and doesn't cost anyone a dime. I am shocked that some say their parents never talked with them about what to do if they were stopped by a law enforcement officer. That conversation has been held by everyone I have ever known who have had driving age children just like the parents teach/taught them to say 'yes sir and no sir or yes m'am and no m'am' to everyone older than them. Its as normal as rain where I live to have these conversations with children.

Out of our five children we had one who was stopped for speeding and she did as we advised her to do. She told us the police officer was very pleasant and thanked her for not lying about speeding or making excuses. He gave her a warning ticket and that was enough that it never happened again. Our kids are now adults and have taught their own children the same if they are ever stopped. Not one of them has ever had any dealing with the police other than the one daughter who was caught years ago for speeding when she was 16. We as parents, may not think our children listens to what we say, but often we are pleasantly surprised to find out how much they did truly listen to our well intended advice. Parents being positive role models for them to follow is another way they learn what is the wrong way or right way to behave under any circumstances they may encounter as they go through the journey of life.
 
Le had a warrant for her arrest. They knocked on the door and got no answer, hearing people in side they went to get the key from the office. LE unlocked the door and there was a chain that kept the door from opening all the way. LE then proceeded to break the chain keeping them from accessing the apartment. She escalated the situation just like she did back in march in her car.
Watch her in this and tell me she was capable of being deescalated.
[video=youtube;oPvlJlk6rkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPvlJlk6rkk[/video]

Is the only outcome that ppl consider a successful LEO de-escalation is one ending without an arrest? What would de-escalation look like in a situation like this?

Initially she spoke relatively calmly, then raised her voice, and as time passed, she began cursing, etc. That's 'only' attitude.
Her message/content was a load of you-know-what, about delegation of authority, her 'lawsuit.' kidnapping her, stealing her car, kidnapping her children, killing her on the spot, etc.* That was all misdirected at LEO who listened to it for a while. Though cursing & repeating 'sovereign citizen' litany, her only physical actions were refusing to sign form & to exit car, as requested. IIUC, that constitutes the offense of resisting arrest, at which point LEOs are allowed to use physical force in removing her from car and taking into custody.

If they physically removed her from vehicle and cuffed her, then seems imo they used appropriate force, commensurate w her refusal/inaction. Appears LEOs gave multiple requests/orders to exit car, did not yell, did not curse or name call, did not issue threats, allowed passage of time for her to comply (vid was ~21 min).**

What is the alternative for LEOs? After making a legit traffic stop and having probable cause to arrest, if driver says 'thanks but no thanks' or 'screw you,' should LEOs say, 'alrighty, never mind, no citation or arrest, have a nice day.'

Any use w LEO trying to change her mind about her 'message,' or verbal response? Doubtful imo.




_______________________________________________________________________________________________
* The LEOs countered that a bit, offered some vague reassurances - we're friends, not stealing car, don't want to kill you, etc.

** And What happened after vid ended? If they slapped her, punched her w fists, or drew their batons and beat her, then seems LEOs would have been escalating, and from what I've seen on vid, imo that would not have been approp. or lawful. OTOH, if she had started punching, kicking, scratching them, then what would approp LEO response be?
Have multiple LEOs remove her from vehicle? Pepper spray? If they would have pepper sprayed, presumably they still would have needed to physically remove her from car, so that would just have added an unneeded step of aggravation for both 'sides.'




 
al66pine - "if driver says 'thanks but no thanks' or 'screw you,' should LEOs say, 'alrighty, never mind, no citation or arrest, have a nice day.' "


i guess so - considering that people have suggested that they should have just left when she became uncooperative while acting deranged and waving a shotgun around with a child present...
 
Well said, al66pine. Anarchy is not "a good plan" for world peace!

Having wasted 21 minutes of my life viewing that video, I now understand what that woman was all about. She alone got herself killed, IMO. She created every single problem, and then escalated every single problem.

People who go thru life defiant, belligerent, uncooperative, combative, rude, and disrespectful to all forms of authority rarely have success in life, good outcomes, and happy endings. Frankly, I'm surprised this woman lived as long as she did. Very sorry that her son was exposed to her-- he needs a lifetime of counseling to undo the damage this woman did to him, if it's even possible to "undo" the damage. Very sad police (and social workers, and the justice system) have to deal with people like her on a daily basis. Frustrating that we can't "fix" these social misfits-- nothing seems to work to change their behavior and their attitudes.

On another topic, I was reading upthread about her lead exposure-- which can be both a partial explanation for her personality and behavior, and at the same time, not "enough" of an excuse to make her "not responsible" for her actions.

Here are some "lead" links for any interested.

The pediatric behavior, intellectual, and attention (executive function) issues don't disappear when these kids become adults-- they are magnified, and lead to profound social maladaptive behavior (and often, criminality).

The difficulty we as a society grapple with is that the functional level of these lead-exposed people is often not low enough for them to be in guardianship status/ ward of the state, as adults. They are simply not "disabled" enough. And there isn't much of anything that can be done to help them as adults, if they don't want to seek any mental health and social services intervention. So, they typically get a "lead check" every month, and go about their lives. Many have extensive involvement with criminal activity and the justice system. Prevention of exposure remains our best solution, but lead exposure often occurs in the presence of lots of other difficult social problems, poverty, etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2810427/

http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1884486

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412012000566

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health

About exploitation of those receiving "lead checks":

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...a01146-4cda-11e5-84df-923b3ef1a64b_story.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...off-lead-poisoned-victims-20150825-story.html
 
At 2:40 in the video the second (2) officer approaches from the rear on the passengers side and the officer that is with her asked the second officer,Did you see that tag? the second officer says yeah, the first officer says have you seen this car before? The second officer says yeah, The first officer says, Do you know who she is? the second officer responds yeah.

jmo
 
al66pine - "if driver says 'thanks but no thanks' or 'screw you,' should LEOs say, 'alrighty, never mind, no citation or arrest, have a nice day.' "


i guess so - considering that people have suggested that they should have just left when she became uncooperative while acting deranged and waving a shotgun around with a child present...

Who has said any of that? Please link to the post.
 
I am much older being born at the very end of 1946. I was taught the very same thing by my parents just like all of my friends were. Being respectful to anyone in authority is free and doesn't cost anyone a dime. I am shocked that some say their parents never talked with them about what to do if they were stopped by a law enforcement officer. That conversation has been held by everyone I have ever known who have had driving age children just like the parents teach/taught them to say 'yes sir and no sir or yes m'am and no m'am' to everyone older than them. Its as normal as rain where I live to have these conversations with children.

Out of our five children we had one who was stopped for speeding and she did as we advised her to do. She told us the police officer was very pleasant and thanked her for not lying about speeding or making excuses. He gave her a warning ticket and that was enough that it never happened again. Our kids are now adults and have taught their own children the same if they are ever stopped. Not one of them has ever had any dealing with the police other than the one daughter who was caught years ago for speeding when she was 16. We as parents, may not think our children listens to what we say, but often we are pleasantly surprised to find out how much they did truly listen to our well intended advice. Parents being positive role models for them to follow is another way they learn what is the wrong way or right way to behave under any circumstances they may encounter as they go through the journey of life.

Interesting. None of our parents in our middle to upper class neighborhoods had any reason to think anyone would have interaction with the police. I cannot think of a single person I knew that had interaction with the police except for a family a block away that parents said that we were not allowed to go near .Our teens knew that any car infractions would mean no more driving as insurance would become unaffordable.

I do not understand why parents would think their children would have police interactions. I never talked to my children about the police, It would never cross my mind that there would be a reason my children would have police interaction.

My son is 35 and back when he was a teen, the police had a neighborhood station and the kids would be working in the alley on their vehicles. They got to know the neighbor hood officers.
In the country where I lived, we had a constable. He knew eveyone and handled things appropriately. May or may not talk to your parents.

I am happy to see that the professionals, the LE , are looking at ways to keep everyone alive.An officer who kills someone usually ends up with big issues. It benefits no one
 
Korryn Gaines killed Korryn Gaines.
Simple.
Common sense.

JMO
 
Is the only outcome that ppl consider a successful LEO de-escalation is one ending without an arrest? What would de-escalation look like in a situation like this?

Initially she spoke relatively calmly, then raised her voice, and as time passed, she began cursing, etc. That's 'only' attitude.
Her message/content was a load of you-know-what, about delegation of authority, her 'lawsuit.' kidnapping her, stealing her car, kidnapping her children, killing her on the spot, etc.* That was all misdirected at LEO who listened to it for a while. Though cursing & repeating 'sovereign citizen' litany, her only physical actions were refusing to sign form & to exit car, as requested. IIUC, that constitutes the offense of resisting arrest, at which point LEOs are allowed to use physical force in removing her from car and taking into custody.

If they physically removed her from vehicle and cuffed her, then seems imo they used appropriate force, commensurate w her refusal/inaction. Appears LEOs gave multiple requests/orders to exit car, did not yell, did not curse or name call, did not issue threats, allowed passage of time for her to comply (vid was ~21 min).**

What is the alternative for LEOs? After making a legit traffic stop and having probable cause to arrest, if driver says 'thanks but no thanks' or 'screw you,' should LEOs say, 'alrighty, never mind, no citation or arrest, have a nice day.'

Any use w LEO trying to change her mind about her 'message,' or verbal response? Doubtful imo.




_______________________________________________________________________________________________
* The LEOs countered that a bit, offered some vague reassurances - we're friends, not stealing car, don't want to kill you, etc.

** And What happened after vid ended? If they slapped her, punched her w fists, or drew their batons and beat her, then seems LEOs would have been escalating, and from what I've seen on vid, imo that would not have been approp. or lawful. OTOH, if she had started punching, kicking, scratching them, then what would approp LEO response be?
Have multiple LEOs remove her from vehicle? Pepper spray? If they would have pepper sprayed, presumably they still would have needed to physically remove her from car, so that would just have added an unneeded step of aggravation for both 'sides.'





This should be documented so that any future LE would know that there are issues. It seems like a good way to keep everyone alive
 
al66pine - "if driver says 'thanks but no thanks' or 'screw you,' should LEOs say, 'alrighty, never mind, no citation or arrest, have a nice day.' "


i guess so - considering that people have suggested that they should have just left when she became uncooperative while acting deranged and waving a shotgun around with a child present...

I can tell you as a teacher we learned it is not good to get into a confrontational situation. This is when active listening comes into play to deescalate situations. It works.
 
I can tell you as a teacher we learned it is not good to get into a confrontational situation. This is when active listening comes into play to deescalate situations. It works.

Did the students have guns pointed at said teacher? Totally different playing field, the kids have been in the (system) for years and know the drill and most know the lengths they can go with said teacher.

People that think they can drive because they have access to a uninsured, unregistered vehicle must have missed a grade or two. jmo



Watch her here, she is looking for lost/stolen property/documents from her arrest/kidnapping :)

She was a piece of work.

[video=youtube;gs5UpruDXak]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs5UpruDXak[/video]
 
Le had a warrant for her arrest. They knocked on the door and got no answer, hearing people in side they went to get the key from the office. LE unlocked the door and there was a chain that kept the door from opening all the way. LE then proceeded to break the chain keeping them from accessing the apartment. She escalated the situation just like she did back in march in her car.

Watch her in this and tell me she was capable of being deescalated.

[video=youtube;oPvlJlk6rkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPvlJlk6rkk[/video]

The officers in this video handled this situation very well IMO. Just goes to show how a little compassion can make a potentially devastating scenario go relatively smoothly. If any of these officers were of the egomaniac bullying type, this ladies life would have ended a few months sooner. That my friends is how a traffic stop on a combative(probably suicidal) person should look. Bravo to those LEO's.
 
I can tell you as a teacher we learned it is not good to get into a confrontational situation. This is when active listening comes into play to deescalate situations. It works.

No offense, but teaching and policing are completely different. An officers job is to confront and stop criminals.
 
No offense, but teaching and policing are completely different. An officers job is to confront and stop criminals.

The difference is that we do not arrest them. They may have weapons, They may be capable of beating you up. These are the very same people out on the street. They can be very angry. We have to learn how to deal with out of control and angry students School is not a picnic. The public has no clue because of privacy issues . Just picture the people on these threads. They are or have been in school.
 
The difference is that we do not arrest them. They may have weapons, They may be capable of beating you up. These are the very same people out on the street. They can be very angry. We have to learn how to deal with out of control and angry students School is not a picnic. The public has no clue because of privacy issues . Just picture the people on these threads. They are or have been in school.

My cousin is a teacher so I hear many stories. However, at least in Texas, there are many things teachers/school staff use to deal with them. One being police. Even when I was in school I remember kids being cuffed and taken out. Then there are the alternative schools and the boot camp schools. So, when it reaches a certain point, teachers do call police, they are not aways capable of de-escalating a situation either. Some people simply do not want to go peacefully.
 
I can tell you as a teacher we learned it is not good to get into a confrontational situation. This is when active listening comes into play to deescalate situations. It works.

Until that 'child' throws you up against the wall and attacks you in your classroom. Do you then repeat the same action the next time the child opposed you? And this happens EVERY DAY in City schools in Baltimore. And NOT just High Schoolers.
 
I can tell you as a teacher we learned it is not good to get into a confrontational situation. This is when active listening comes into play to deescalate situations. It works.

Are you saying, active listening (btw, they "listened" for like 7 hours) could've possibly made a difference in this situation. She was hell bent on them leaving, or going to battle. She got the battle. She lost the battle.
Even during her traffic stop in March she said y'all aren't kidnapping me. Be ready to use your firearm. I'll leave in a body bag.
Last Monday, she said leave or I'll shoot you. She was not ever going to "let them win".

Do you really (honestly?) think any amount of listening was going to make her stand up, put the gun down, and go peacefully?

Come on!
 
Interesting. None of our parents in our middle to upper class neighborhoods had any reason to think anyone would have interaction with the police. I cannot think of a single person I knew that had interaction with the police except for a family a block away that parents said that we were not allowed to go near .Our teens knew that any car infractions would mean no more driving as insurance would become unaffordable.

I do not understand why parents would think their children would have police interactions. I never talked to my children about the police, It would never cross my mind that there would be a reason my children would have police interaction.

My son is 35 and back when he was a teen, the police had a neighborhood station and the kids would be working in the alley on their vehicles. They got to know the neighbor hood officers.
In the country where I lived, we had a constable. He knew eveyone and handled things appropriately. May or may not talk to your parents.

I am happy to see that the professionals, the LE , are looking at ways to keep everyone alive.An officer who kills someone usually ends up with big issues. It benefits no one

Are you seriously saying those who were raised in a middle to upper class family/neighborhood were somehow immune to breaking the law? This site right here shows that is far from the truth as it can get if that is what you are implying. In fact there are countless cases from DUIs resulting in fatalities of innocent people, rapes, using drugs, selling drugs, and even horrific murders committed by those in the neighborhoods you have cited.

I lived in a upper middle class neighborhood growing up but what does that have to do with anything or following the law or parents giving good advice to their children?

I don't think any parent who has this conversation with their children expects the police is going to stop them but like every teaching that parents do it is to prepare them should the situation ever arise. Are you saying because millions of parents have told their children to be respectful to police officers should they be stopped the children are criminals and that is the only reason parents have this conversation? Gah, how ridiculous if that is what you are saying.

I have had only one traffic warning ticket in my entire 69 years of life and that was when I was an adult in the 80s when I went through a yellow caution light. You betcha I was nice to the officer. There was no need not to be because he was very respectful to me. In fact I have no criminal record whatsoever of any kind because I have always abided by the rule of law and so do our children. When our daughter was caught speeding she learned from that one mistake and didn't repeat it. I believe she was given only a warning because she showed the police officer the respected he was entitled to be given. He was very respectful to her and respect is a two way street always or it sure as heck should be.

My parents still instilled in me to always be respectful to those in authority and to everyone in general. My parents certainly didn't think I would be interacting with the police but they were there to prepare me just in case it happened which it never did when I was growing up. No one is immune to being pulled over by the police and it can even happen in a roadblock without the person doing anything wrong. When we did the same with our five children we certainly didn't do so because we thought they would be interacting in any manner with a police officer for breaking the law. However teens are as human as anyone else and can make mistakes just like anyone can.

It is more apt to happen if they have never been taught anything nor given any guidance by their parents. The attitude of 'the rules don't matter or apply to me and to hell with what a cop says' ' is a very bad dangerous attitude to follow. Unfortunately many parents do have this same nasty attitude and its passed on to their children just like this woman who was warping the mind of her young boy convincing him violence against a police officer is the answer rather than being compliant. Or better yet she should have been instilling in him to abide by the law at all times and keep his nose clean.

I have no clue why you seem to think middle to upper class children don't/didn't ever break the law therefore the parents never had to talk to with them about being respectful to those in authority in case they are stopped. In fact many children from middle or upper class families are very much lawbreakers. We have seen many who thought the law didn't apply to them creating an attitude of entitlement. There have also been cases where their influential father/mother bought his or her kid's way out of trouble, but it certainly didn't mean the children were law abiders just because of where they may have lived.

Teens and young adults are one of the main groups that do have interactions with police officers nowadays. Many teens and young adults are caught speeding or texting, drinking, under the influence of drugs or causing deaths for not only themselves, their passengers, but killing and maiming innocent others. More and more of them are defiant against our police officers instead of simply complying to simple commands. That hostile behavior is learned and taught by the ones they see with the same bad attitude.

I don't think "an officer who kills someone usually ends up with big issues" is accurate and is way overblown. Most officers do their jobs diligently/honorably, and yes, they have a constitutional right to defend themselves just like every law abiding citizen here does. Usually when someone is shot and killed by a cop is because they refused to cooperate,or refused to comply to society's rules or they attacked/assaulted the officer/s, had a firearm or another weapon they wouldn't putdown or were in a hostage situation or in a stand off with police.

Very few cases when a police officers shoots someone it is unjustified. So I respectfully disagree. In fact I think out of the 800K police officers we have 99%+ do a fantastic job day in and day out to keep our citizens and communities safe no matter the grave dangers they are facing. Even though it is the only profession on our soil where they are assaulted/attacked almost 50K times every year it shows most all of our police officers show great restraint.

We have seen them be spit on, feces and urine thrown on them, rocks and bricks thrown at them, lit Molotov cocktails thrown at them, and they still defend the ones who want nothing more than to cause them great harm or worse. The murder rate for our officers now is way above what it was this same time last year yet every day they go out once again to serve and protect us all. The small teeny tiny minority of bad police officers in our nation never will erase all the countless thousands who are courageous and run toward danger while others run away.

The vast majority of officers do it right and aren't the problem but what is changing more and more is those who interact with the officers would rather be combative confrontational jerks rather than resolving the problem in a peaceful manner.

IMO
 
This should be documented so that any future LE would know that there are issues. It seems like a good way to keep everyone alive

And if they did something like that, there would be loud and incendiary cries of "racism", "profiling", and "prejudice", followed by not-so-peaceful demonstrations and riots. No, police can't do that, and I'm astonished at the suggestion.

What exactly would LE document?? That she is "crazy"? Lies incessantly? Completely uncooperative with any and all laws and reasonable requests for identification from officers? Defiant? Belligerent? Looking to pick a fight? Uses her kids as a shield from LE? Is foul mouthed and combative when approached by LE? Homicidal? Could anyone imagine THAT in a super secret file?? The lawsuits would be epic.

Why would LEOs document all that in some kind of "double secret probation" file on her? Police aren't charged with writing EBD "behavior management plans" for staff to read and comply with, like elementary schools have. The societal expectation for everyone is polite, respectful, and law-abiding. KG failed all three, and was homicidal, as well.

This woman was a very serious danger to herself and others. She should have been removed from society and her son, and confined somewhere, not have a "super secret behavior management file" for police to look up when they confront her.
 
I'm the daughter of a career cop. Upper middle class, white, suburbs. And I've dated cops. And I can tell you I have been pulled over multiple times (cops and teachers kids are the worst :-) ) and mom was a teacher. I STILL get nervous if i'm pulled over, even if i HAVEN"T done anything wrong. But i am respectful, courteous and TELL THE TRUTH. COURT is where you argue, not on the street. And i've been pulled over in Baltimore in the 'hood' so i'm not talking about 'white' areas. I'm talking 'whats a white girl doing here' questionable areas (No, wasn't looking for drugs, i managed bands that played all over Balto/DC area.) And i've been 'profiled' being there. And have walked with warnings from speeding, being in the area, tailight out.. multiple things. 99% of the time if you treat THEM with respect, they will treat you with respect.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
59
Guests online
5,076
Total visitors
5,135

Forum statistics

Threads
621,642
Messages
18,435,812
Members
239,716
Latest member
TalkToTofana
Back
Top