GUILTY MD - Korryn Gaines, 23, fatally shot by Baltimore police, 1 Aug 2016

[K_Z]

I think you are preaching to the choir. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who did not find KG's behaviour extremely unsettling.
The argument is not whether or not KG was a criminal or social misfit. The argument is that many of your fellow citizens believe there are too many of these situations where LE are not placing maximum value on human life. Thy should approach these situations where you have an out of control person the exact same way they would approach if it were their out of control grandmother or daughter.

There is no question that if these officers lives were under immediate threat they had the right to use lethal force. No doubt about it. Could they have go into this situation with a better plan? Could they have waited to arrest her when she was going about her daily activities or another scenario where she wouldn't have access to a firearm? They knew she was a hostile and likely suicidal person.

Regardless of my respect for LE, when you see things like what just happened to that young man in Chicago, how can you help to wonder if they are not going into these situations without a care of whether or not their suspect ends up dead?

That is all activists and BLM supporters are asking for. To give the same value to the life of a career criminal or social misfit that you would to your loved ones. Is that something we can all agree on?

BBM. No, I don't agree that a career criminal actively engaged in homicidal violence is a life worth preserving "at all costs". The lives of their actual and potential victims, LE, and bystanders are far more valuable at that point in time. Their own actions have decreased the value of their life by engaging in homicidal violence.

If we can arrest them or subdue them alive without further risk, that's fine with me. But if their actions mean they have to be subdued by an officer's weapon in a lawful and justified use of lethal force, then that's what is morally, ethically, and legally the right thing to do. I don't weep for dead criminals, nor do I celebrate their killing. But sometimes the actions of the criminal suspect can best and safely be stopped with a well placed lethal bullet. That's another form of de-escalation. I don't ever want to take that ability away from police. Or the military.

Never forget, criminals always have choices. Police don't have the option to walk away from violent criminals. It's their job to neutralize the situation.

Once KG brought out the shotgun, it didn't matter anymore why the police were originally there. It was a whole new set of circumstances, a whole new set of multiple felonies she was engaged in. She alone got herself killed, and she alone put her child in extreme and imminent danger.

 

[human]

Here are some things that happen to LE that shoot

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/post-shooting-syndrome

 

[Cobra Jet]

As a person who wants to live to see another day I would never escalate a situation with the police even if they are completely in the wrong. I would calmly plead my case and if there was any indication that my actions were causing them to become angry I would accept the ticket and decide if it was worth my trouble to fight them in court. He has a gun and I don’t so who is going to end up on the wrong side of this battle, me?

Years ago I got rear-ended by a lady who was drinking. For some strange reason a police officer pulls up and starts acting like I did something wrong. To this day, I don’t know why he was acting that way. Believe me I felt like chewing him out but I bit my tongue and did as he said and guess what, he calmed down and was actually helpful. That doesn’t make how he acted right but in almost all cases even if the police are completely in the wrong escalating thing go badly for the person being pulled over not the police. Any person of group that feels like the police are out to get them should be extra careful not to escalate things, IMO.
If later the police are found to be in the wrong and the officer gets fired it will not bring you back if you're dead.

 

[human]

Here is a personal story from an officer

http://www.aaets.org/article132.htm

 

[oceanblueeyes]

In all of this back and forth about LE shooting people, people who committed crimes, are committing crimes, people resisting arrest, attacking LE, robbing, looting, stealing, attacking others, aiming weapons, I have not one person speak to the crime committers, asking, telling them, criminal activity is probably not the best way to live your life.
Not one person has spoken out against the criminal. In fact, they try to make them out as a martyr or a hero. A person who commits a crime and gets away with it, generally continues to commit crimes. AND someone is the victim. Someone got their car stolen, or hit by an uninsured driver, or knocked out by someone playing a vicious game and calling it fun. What about those people, those victims?
I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. I am a CCP because I am afraid of these people who live their live this way. I have never committed a crime in my life, other than speeding, and when stopped for that I owned up to it, respected the officer and paid the ticket.
People do not have a 'right' to do wrong.
All MOO

Great post.

I really do think it could be effective if the police departments in every community could hold seminars teaching the correct way to act if they are ever stopped by the police for whatever reason. That seems to be the horrendous problem we are seeing more and more often where criminals would much rather be aggressive and confrontational than comply to simple commands in a peaceful manner to resolve the problem. Its obvious they aren't being taught by those who are close to them so maybe LE can teach teens and adults too. It really isn't hard to comprehend either.

There are overwhelmingly more criminals attacking police officers and refusing to comply than the small minority of cops that shouldn't have ever been cops to begin with.

I am a CCP also. All we have to do is read the news everyday whether it is local news or the national media to know there are countless criminals now who are wanting to harm not only police officers but anyone who they think is an easy target.

I don't know if WS even has a thread about this particular case. In Georgia, this past weekend, an 83 year old woman is fighting for her life now after several brutes broke into her home. She sustained several broken bones including having both arms broken and every bone in one of her hands is broken. After they brutally beat her they set her on fire, and now she is in an induced coma in critical condition. Why do all of that to a totally defenseless woman? Because they knew they could and they wanted to. They knew she couldn't stop them. They caught three of them this morning, but think there is another male and a female involved and are still looking for them. All she did to them is give them work in the past picking berries for her, and this is the way they repaid her.

This is only one example of the type of people police officers have to face every day which is the worst our society has to offer who only causes pain/suffering and are reeking havoc on innocent people.

 

[human]

Excellent excellent study on the effects of being LE.

I am sure the LE in command are totally aware of all of this and will work to address these issues,

They are not some kind of special species that remains unaffected by what they see and do. Instead they see the effects on their lives.

Is this how we say Blue Lives Matter?

http://www.cji.edu/site/assets/files/1921/post_traumatic_stress_disorder.pdf

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Those parents are misinforming their children. Which is why our rights keep slipping away from us.



http://wearechange.org/u-s-supreme-...o-drive-automobile-on-public-highwaysstreets/

http://www.snopes.com/supreme-court-rules-drivers-licenses-unnecessary/

The exercise of such a common right the city may, under its police power, regulate in the interest of the public safety and welfare; but it may not arbitrarily or unreasonably prohibit or restrict it, nor may it permit one to exercise it and refuse to permit another of like qualifications, under like conditions and circumstances, to exercise it.

The regulation of the exercise of the right to drive a private automobile on the streets of the city may be accomplished in part by the city by granting, refusing, and revoking, under rules of general application, permits to drive an automobile on its streets; but such permits may not be arbitrarily refused or revoked, or permitted to be held by some and refused to other of like qualifications, under like circumstances and conditions.


BBM

The next couple of paragraphs.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.snopes.com/supreme-court-rules-drivers-licenses-unnecessary/

The exercise of such a common right the city may, under its police power, regulate in the interest of the public safety and welfare; but it may not arbitrarily or unreasonably prohibit or restrict it, nor may it permit one to exercise it and refuse to permit another of like qualifications, under like conditions and circumstances, to exercise it.

The regulation of the exercise of the right to drive a private automobile on the streets of the city may be accomplished in part by the city by granting, refusing, and revoking, under rules of general application, permits to drive an automobile on its streets; but such permits may not be arbitrarily refused or revoked, or permitted to be held by some and refused to other of like qualifications, under like circumstances and conditions.


BBM

The next couple of paragraphs.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yeah, it's like walking out of the movies five minutes before it ends, it's important to read the before and after of a quoted sentence/paragraph. jmo .

etc five not have

 

[K_Z]

LE seminars for lay people are a great idea, oceanblueeyes, but I doubt that the target audience would attend, or be receptive to the instruction.

Most of these people, the ones with the hateful, belligerent and defiant attitudes, are "lost causes", IMO. Criminals who target LE for violence and provocative behavior are lost causes. There is nothing that can be offered to them to help them change into being peaceful, respectful, law abiding citizens. They want to be the way they are. All the rest of society can do is use LE and the justice system to manage their risk to everyone else.

I used to be a pie-eyed optimist when I was younger, but now I'm older and wiser, and I have a better idea of what can be fixed, and what can't be fixed. If we could get the little kids out of these crime ridden inner cities, and raise them in a completely different environment, we'd have a good chance of turning out happy, law abiding, respectful, productive citizens. But not in our violent inner cities. Those neighborhoods, IMO, are a lost cause. We should help the people get out who want to get out, and help those who are willing to relocate and help themselves and their kids start a new and better life in a safer community. We should stop enabling the criminality and social problems in the violent inner city neighborhoods, IMO.

 

[al66pine]

Those parents are misinforming their children. Which is why our rights keep slipping away from us.
U.S. Supreme Court says No License Necessary To Drive Automobile On Public Highways/Streets
[paragraph 1. Where is case citation for this purported SCOTUS decision]
The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horsedrawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another’s rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct.”

[paragraph 2, see below]
Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579, 11 American Jurisprudence, Constitutional Law, section 329, page 1135 “The right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, in the ordinary course of life and business, is a common right which he has under the right to enjoy life and liberty, to acquire and possess property, and to pursue happiness and safety. It includes the right, in so doing, to use the ordinary and usual conveyances of the day, and under the existing modes of travel, includes the right to drive a horse drawn carriage or wagon thereon or to operate an automobile thereon, for the usual and ordinary purpose of life and business.” –
http://wearechange.org/u-s-supreme-...o-drive-automobile-on-public-highwaysstreets/

Respectfully disagreeing w above (stating or suggesting?) per US Sup Ct or SCOTUS ruling, no license is required to drive on pub hwys or streets, & <--- that is applicable law in 2016.

[paragraph 1] of KaaBoom's post w ^ heading suggests it came from a SCOTUS decision, but does not give a case citation. May or may not have been language from a SCOTUS decision. IDK, not looking further ATM. Would welcome link to SCOTUS decision, if anyone locates.

[paragraph 2]
"Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579, 11 American Jurisprudence, Constitutional Law, section 329, page 1135"
--- "54 SE 579" is a state ct decision, this one from Virginia State Sup Ct in 1930, not a current decision by US Sup Ct.
Full decision: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3467100988685921366, Thompson v. Smith, 155 Va. 367,Va: Supreme Court 1930.
--- ^ American Jurisprudence is a legal encyclopedia of US law.

Not exactly hairsplitting, JM2cts. Members of our legal community - corrections or clarifications? Thx in adv.

{{ETA: While slowest typist :gaah:in world was pecking away, faster minds & fingers :loveyou: posted re KaaBoom's post. Sorry to repeat.}}
_____________________________________________________________
FWIW (just saying Snopes is not accurate on all subjects, but imo is accurate on this one)
http://www.snopes.com/supreme-court-rules-drivers-licenses-unnecessary/
"Origins: On 21 April 2015, LinkedIn user Jean-Michel Letennier published an article to the social networking site titled "U.S. Supreme Court Says No License Necessary to Drive Automobile on Public Highways/Streets." It was re-published (verbatim) to the siteWeAreChange.org on 21 July 2015...."
"Despite what you may read on social media, you still need a driver's license to legally drive a car. The U.S. Supreme Court hasn't ruled otherwise....
" A full citation for the referenced case, a 1930 decision titled "Thompson v. Smith, 155 Va. 367 &#8212; Va: Supreme Court 1930" (available via Google Scholar) presents that inaugural quote in an entirely different context: ..." bbm rbm

 

[Dogface]

Those parents are misinforming their children. Which is why our rights keep slipping away from us.



http://wearechange.org/u-s-supreme-...o-drive-automobile-on-public-highwaysstreets/

That left out an important part of the case quote, which states that as long as permitting is applied equally to people, local laws can enforce a license requirement.

http://www.snopes.com/supreme-court-rules-drivers-licenses-unnecessary/


ETA: sorry, I guess my page wasn't refreshed and I see this has been addressed! I just don't want people mistakenly thinking they don't need a license!

 

[Dogface]

LE seminars for lay people are a great idea, oceanblueeyes, but I doubt that the target audience would attend, or be receptive to the instruction.

Most of these people, the ones with the hateful, belligerent and defiant attitudes, are "lost causes", IMO. Criminals who target LE for violence and provocative behavior are lost causes. There is nothing that can be offered to them to help them change into being peaceful, respectful, law abiding citizens. They want to be the way they are. All the rest of society can do is use LE and the justice system to manage their risk to everyone else.

I used to be a pie-eyed optimist when I was younger, but now I'm older and wiser, and I have a better idea of what can be fixed, and what can't be fixed. If we could get the little kids out of these crime ridden inner cities, and raise them in a completely different environment, we'd have a good chance of turning out happy, law abiding, respectful, productive citizens. But not in our violent inner cities. Those neighborhoods, IMO, are a lost cause. We should help the people get out who want to get out, and help those who are willing to relocate and help themselves and their kids start a new and better life in a safer community. We should stop enabling the criminality and social problems in the violent inner city neighborhoods, IMO.

I volunteer at a very rough school in our area. Honestly, if parents would just set expectations and be involved in their kids lives, so many problems would go away. Not all of them of course, but a lot. I see so many GREAT kids who are about to drop out of school, just because they don't have the support they need. It's easy to get pulled into a group of people who are doing bad things if you feel loved and respected by them, and you aren't getting that validation elsewhere. (I know that's not the case with al these children, cases, etc., but IMO it's a huge contributing factor to so many of the things we see)

 

[al66pine]

They went to the house because of tickets, not because she had a gun...

Yes, initially the traffic tix warrant spurred LEOs to go to apt. After they arrived (knocked, waited, got key, popped sec. chain, etc), and saw her pointing a gun at them & heard her threaten to kill them, reasons for their actions changed and their reactions changed.

Should LEOs have ignored gun & threat, just strolled in, handed warrant to her, because, after all, traffic tix are NBD? IOW, her shooting (at) LEOs is NBD for traffic tix in this situation? I guess that's one way to look at it.

But their shooting back (w her gun pointed at them, & after she threatened to kill) at her is not acceptable, inappropriate, unlawful. And criminal, something like M1, M2, vol MS, or invol MS? (sarc)
JM2cts.

 

[CoolJ]

"That is all activists and BLM supporters are asking for. To give the same value to the life of a career criminal or social misfit that you would to your loved ones. Is that something we can all agree on?"

I am sorry, but I cannot agree on the above. I do not value the life of a career criminal that is pointing a weapon at an officer or a shopkeeper or their wife, in the same high esteem as I do other citizens. I just don't.

Take the kid in Chicago last week---that stole the car, drove it AT HIGH SPEED AT THE OFFICERS CAR, then careened at high speed past them, almost hitting a pedestrian, then jumping from the car and running into a neighbors back yard, fleeing arrest.

I do not hold his life in the same way as I do the people who live in that house, the owner of the car he stole nor the police he almost killed trying to arrest him. I just don't because he had NO care or concern for those he put at risk, nor does he have respect for his own life. So I would rather the police put their own lives and the safety of the public above the fleeing felons.

Maybe that makes me an awful person. But I am not going to fall into line with BLM and try and elevate the criminal element into some kind of martyrs or fallen heroes. If you steal a car and then drive it at high speed towards OTHER LIVING HUMANS, then you might end up dead yourself. And I have little sympathy for you at that point. :no:

No, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just shows how different our opinions can be at a fundamental level. But maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying you have to like the people, I am not even saying you have to respect them. I am just saying we should cherish each human life the same. That is what is meant by #alllivesmatter, is it not?
Yes, sometimes lethal force needs to be used. But should we not try to preserve human life as much as possible without putting other lives at risk?
Do everything utterly possible to preserve human life. That is all I am saying.

I love that I live in a country(Canada) that still views it this way though the eyes of the law. Very grateful for that.

 

[CoolJ]

"Regardless of my respect for LE, when you see things like what just happened to that young man in Chicago, how can you help to wonder if they are not going into these situations without a care of whether or not their suspect ends up dead?"

Did you see what that young man in Chicago did, prior to his running from the cops? What about HIS ACTIONS? Did he have any care or concern for the officers he nearly killed by driving at full speed right at their car? Or the pedestrian he nearly ran over when careening out of the area to save his own sorry butt? Did he show any care or concern for the safety of others?

BBM. No obviously he did not. But what does that have to do with whether or not he should be executed for his crimes?

Did you see the officers fist bump each other after murdering an 18yo young man? Does that not disturb you just as much?

 

[CoolJ]

LE seminars for lay people are a great idea, oceanblueeyes, but I doubt that the target audience would attend, or be receptive to the instruction.

Most of these people, the ones with the hateful, belligerent and defiant attitudes, are "lost causes", IMO. Criminals who target LE for violence and provocative behavior are lost causes. There is nothing that can be offered to them to help them change into being peaceful, respectful, law abiding citizens. They want to be the way they are. All the rest of society can do is use LE and the justice system to manage their risk to everyone else.

I used to be a pie-eyed optimist when I was younger, but now I'm older and wiser, and I have a better idea of what can be fixed, and what can't be fixed. If we could get the little kids out of these crime ridden inner cities, and raise them in a completely different environment, we'd have a good chance of turning out happy, law abiding, respectful, productive citizens. But not in our violent inner cities. Those neighborhoods, IMO, are a lost cause. We should help the people get out who want to get out, and help those who are willing to relocate and help themselves and their kids start a new and better life in a safer community. We should stop enabling the criminality and social problems in the violent inner city neighborhoods, IMO.

Who would be the target audience????

ETA
Funny, I used to be a pessimist when I was younger, now that I have gained some wisdom I am an eternal optimist. We must be drinking different brands of wisdom lol

 

[katydid23]

No, it doesn't make you a bad person. It just shows how different our opinions can be at a fundamental level. But maybe you are misunderstanding me. I am not saying you have to like the people, I am not even saying you have to respect them. I am just saying we should cherish each human life the same. That is what is meant by #alllivesmatter, is it not?
Yes, sometimes lethal force needs to be used. But should we not try to preserve human life as much as possible without putting other lives at risk?
Do everything utterly possible to preserve human life. That is all I am saying.

I love that I live in a country(Canada) that still views it this way though the eyes of the law. Very grateful for that.

Your police force has the luxury of seeing things that way. Your police are not under the violent onslaught that many of our urban police officers are struggling with.

You say that we should preserve human life as much as possible. And yet we see many of the very same people thaT march in protest, are the ones holding these criminals up as heroes and martyrs. Theses are the same people that are slaughtering their families and neighbors, day after day. Why don't they put any value on preserving human lives? They shoot each other over 10 dollar bags of weed, it is ignored. And then a cop shoots a felling felon and the entire city erupts in months of violence in response. Does anyone protest the death of the 10 yr old boy shot in Chicago gang violence last weekend?



12 DEAD, 28 WOUNDED IN CHICAGO SHOOTINGS IN 2 DAYS
http://abc7chicago.com/news/12-dead-28-wounded-in-chicago-shootings-in-2-days/1463161/


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/04/us/chicago-shootings.html?_r=0

A Weekend in Chicago
JUNE 4, 2016


Three days, 64 people shot, six of them dead: Memorial Day on the streets, and the violence that has engulfed families and neighborhoods.


[This ^^^^ is the kind of violence the street cops deal with on a daily basis. And then people wonder why they are quick to shoot someone they chase into a dark field, if they think they see a glimmer of metal in their waistband.]

 

[katydid23]

BBM. No obviously he did not. But what does that have to do with whether or not he should be executed for his crimes?

Did you see the officers fist bump each other after murdering an 18yo young man? Does that not disturb you just as much?

It has everything to do with what happened to him. It was not an execution for his crimes. It was a death that stemmed from his own careless, violent criminal actions. Once he drove at the officers, which bordered on attempted murder, and then almost took out a pedestrian on the street, the cops knew he was willing to take them out if need be in his desperate escape. So they escalated their force to meet his prior actions/

As to the fist bump, it is cringeworthy, but I do understand the context. They were 'saluting' each other that none of them were killed and they had each other's backs. It is a life and death situation for them too. And they go through it routinely so the optics are not good at all when they do that and I doubt it will happen that way again. But it was not a fist bump celebrating the young man's death. It was about them not dying that night themselves.

That young man came at them in a deadly way, having no concern for their lives. Once that happens, the cops are looking at him as a deadly threat.

 

[CoolJ]

Your police force has the luxury of seeing things that way. Your police are not under the violent onslaught that many of our urban police officers are struggling with.

You say that we should preserve human life as much as possible. And yet we see many of the very same people thaT march in protest, are the ones holding these criminals up as heroes and martyrs. Theses are the same people that are slaughtering their families and neighbors, day after day. Why don't they put any value on preserving human lives? They shoot each other over 10 dollar bags of weed, it is ignored. And then a cop shoots a felling felon and the entire city erupts in months of violence in response. Does anyone protest the death of the 10 yr old boy shot in Chicago gang violence last weekend?



12 DEAD, 28 WOUNDED IN CHICAGO SHOOTINGS IN 2 DAYS
http://abc7chicago.com/news/12-dead-28-wounded-in-chicago-shootings-in-2-days/1463161/


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/04/us/chicago-shootings.html?_r=0

A Weekend in Chicago
JUNE 4, 2016


Three days, 64 people shot, six of them dead: Memorial Day on the streets, and the violence that has engulfed families and neighborhoods.


[This ^^^^ is the kind of violence the street cops deal with on a daily basis. And then people wonder why they are quick to shoot someone they chase into a dark field, if they think they see a glimmer of metal in their waistband.]

Because the felons are the bad guys and LE are supposed to be the good guys. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[human]

Who would be the target audience????

ETA
Funny, I used to be a pessimist when I was younger, now that I have gained some wisdom I am an eternal optimist. We must be drinking different brands of wisdom lol

I was very lucky in life. I was placed in a school as a teacher. The school was mainly filled with families who live below the poverty level. As I worked there almost thirty years, I was able to get to know these families and their struggles and their victories. I had an assistant. The first year we would cry over the circumstances of the lives.

The last two years I worked with the homeless which caused me to retire early. The needs were so great and it was taking a toll on me. Working 12 hours a day and weekends.

I wish people could get to know the citizens of the US who struggle. For instance, the girls who have been sexually molested and at age 14 become pregnant. Looking for love, they get pregnant again, Just one scenario.

You know the saying, There but for the Grace of God go I. Those of us who have been given so much in life IMHO need to open our hearts and minds.