Deceased/Not Found MD - Sarah, 3, & Jacob Hoggle, 2, Clarksburg, 9 Sept 2014 *Arrest*

[Cubby]

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/19/6721574/after-2-weeks-search-still-on.html
According to this article she had been looking into a school system in Indiana and was planning on leaving her husband... Could she have sent the kids ahead with someone and could they be in the Indiana area instead of in Maryland? Does anyone know if this search has gone to other states?

From the above link:

Turner called 911 but Hoggle arrived as he was on the phone with the dispatcher. She told him she had taken the two younger children to a trial program at a daycare, though she was not supposed to be alone with them, he said.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/19/6721574/after-2-weeks-search-still-on.html#storylink=cpy​

She was not supposed to be alone with them says it all. Did someone get lax with her treatment plan? I guess no one was observing whether or not she was taking her meds. I'd think between a daily day program and whoever was supposed to be supervising her with the children would have a handle on whether or not she was med compliant.

I'm curious to know when she wrote the info about the Indiana schools. Schools at this point for a 2 and 3 year old seems a bit early to me.

Did she have her phone with her when she left her parents house for the pizza? Hopefully LE can get phones pings and trace her route Sunday night into Monday morning.

 

[liveshere]

I'm curious to know when she wrote the info about the Indiana schools. Schools at this point for a 2 and 3 year old seems a bit early to me.

She also has a kindergartner.

 

[PJFL]

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/19/6721574/after-2-weeks-search-still-on.html

Thanks, JRW, for the link!

"Things got worse last year. That was the first time Turner learned Hoggle was "suffering from some psychosis." And then, just before Christmas, Turner became more concerned about her decision-making. She was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia."

So, she was diagnosed late last year/early this year. I'd been assuming it wasn't that recent, but can't really say why I'd thought that. Maybe the term "history of mental illness" when describing her had me thinking it was a lot longer.

 

[JRW]

From the above link:

Turner called 911 but Hoggle arrived as he was on the phone with the dispatcher. She told him she had taken the two younger children to a trial program at a daycare, though she was not supposed to be alone with them, he said.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2014/09/19/6721574/after-2-weeks-search-still-on.html#storylink=cpy​

She was not supposed to be alone with them says it all. Did someone get lax with her treatment plan? I guess no one was observing whether or not she was taking her meds. I'd think between a daily day program and whoever was supposed to be supervising her with the children would have a handle on whether or not she was med compliant.

I'm curious to know when she wrote the info about the Indiana schools. Schools at this point for a 2 and 3 year old seems a bit early to me.

Did she have her phone with her when she left her parents house for the pizza? Hopefully LE can get phones pings and trace her route Sunday night into Monday morning.

She also has a 5 year old... and she may have been looking into preschool/ daycare for the younger ones? she left her phone with her husband when she disapeared at chick fil a but another report said they found her phone in the office building so she must have had more than one phone... the article said she wanted to leave her husband so she may have been planning this well in advance

 

[blefuscu]

If she was only recently diagnosed this can explain why she's been off her meds. When people are first diagnosed with a severe mental illness drug programmes often have to be a trial and error type process. What works for some people doesn't work for others. It can take combinations of different drugs to stabilise people. AND anti-psychotics and mood stabilisers can make people feel worse than the illness itself at times. People often feel "out of it" or lethargic. Drugs can cause stomach problems and nausea. They can also make a person feel "detached" and as if they are not themselves. It's a difficult process to get the drug combination right. And many people with mental illness stop taking their meds as the effects of the drugs are awful and make you feel ill.

I now take my meds. Regardless of the side effects. I know that the meds are helping and so put up with the side effects. But I've been diagnosed for over 15 years. In the early days I found it really difficult to cope with the effects and refused to take the meds. I hope that by getting her back on her meds they can stabilise her and find out what she did to those two precious children.

 

[PJFL]

I agree, blefuscu, with everything you wrote above. I also want to add that another reason for going off meds is because the patient feels better. Because of the meds. Vicious cycle.

 

[Cubby]

I meant where was her phone when she was at her parents? Is there a ping map of where she went when she said she was going for pizza? Where was her phone before she and her husband left for the police station and she left her phone behind with her? Those pings might be important to where she was when putting her children in a 'safe place'.

 

[bakerlady]

My heart is aching for these children. There is just no new information....I don't know what else to say.

 

[2Hope4]

The Citizens Commission on Human Rights is a Scientology front group that doesn't believe that mental illness is real and doesn't believe in medication.

That's terrible!!!! Oh the harm that group could be causing people!!! Mental DISEASE would that make them realize it's a medical condition, and it's REAL???? UGH! We are NOT in the stone ages!!! This makes me mad, and makes me wanna cry. No matter how hard we keep trying to fight the stigma around mental health, groups like that will keep it going. Keeping people from getting treatment, and feeling better. Sickens me!!


Two dear babies are out there somewhere. I think if a person, or group had them, they would have notified LE, or CPS or someone by now to say the Mom told them the kids were in danger from such and such, and they believed her so have been keeping the children safe. Since we haven't heard that anyone came forward stating such...sadly I believe that by safe, their Mom means they are deceased. I don't know how and why the mind works as it does. But I do know that sometimes it tells people that others are possessed by evil spirits, etc., and the only way to save them, or you is to kill them. It doesn't just happen with schizophrenia either. Imagine hearing those words from your Father, about your Mother, and having to call the cops. Yup. Been there. Done that. Never want to experience it again!!!

And NO, there was no history or diagnosis before I was born! How was my parent's to know my Dad would get earlier Alzheimers or dementia at 50?? Exactly, they DIDN'T KNOW! It can happen to ANYONE!!!

Jacob and Sarah's parents didn't know either!! She was only diagnosed AFTER having her kids!

That line of thinking IS offensive to me. Yes there's people that keep having kids with no roof over head, no way to provide for them, etc. and nothing is done to stop that. Remember Hitler??? He wanted only perfect people. Yeah, see how that worked out?? Would most people chose to have a child that has at least a 50% chance of inheriting that disorder? Well, surprising yes! Most people have already had their kids before they develop cancer, dementia, ALS, heart conditions, fibromyalgia, etc. ALL which are known to be inherited!! Don't you think people feel guilty enough that their child might inherit one of those??? I know I do!!

Should only the wealthy, without any medical history on either family tree be allowed children? People with only an IQ above a certain level? I know, maybe on those on the MENSA list can have kids. Where would you draw the line? Offensive thinking indeed!!

Grrr!!!!!!!!!!!! Post partum psychosis doesn't happen if don't have a baby, so I guess EVERYONE should STOP having a child, because ANYONE can develop that!!

 

[maureen718]

http://www.gazette.net/article/20140922/NEWS/140929991/1007&source=RSS&template=gazette

 

[JRW]

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...-Hoggle-Toddlers-Disappearance-276396861.html new information

 

[Cubby]

Sadly, I have to wonder how much surveillance video from Sept 7 hasn't already been taped over.
Why did they wait so long to release this information?

 

[all4justice]

Sadly, I have to wonder how much surveillance video from Sept 7 hasn't already been taped over.
Why did they wait so long to release this information?

It makes absolutely no sense. Hopefully, most of the surveillance footage is still available.

 

[KimBeq]

Hello - I need to speak with a Mod, I live in the area and my neighbor and I volunteered in the search this weekend and she actually knows the Dads friend and has been asked to make a map with the POI, some of which have not been released via MSM, and we need to know how to proceed. I've been a member and reading here for a while but I am not familiar with the rules although I have seen many people make the kind of maps the family would like to see. Could a Moderator please PM me or contact me? Thank you.

 

[KimBeq]

please someone who is proficient in maps , please contact me. the fathers side is asking. please

 

[sreshowtime]

Hello Kim
Can you please get this info asap to Law Enforcement & the family?? Please have them contact Klass Kids Search Center at Phone: 850-525-4807 as soon as possible They can assist LE & family during this time, organize searches, etc. They are a very well respected & trained SAR organization.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Klaa...r-Missing-Trafficked-Children/252896698060669

http://klaaskids.org/missingkids/
again- 850-525-4807

(ps, pardon me mods,...check your pm's too Kim)

 

[sreshowtime]

Did LE check the phones or computers of this office place she was in?

 

[Lalasmooch]

This is such an awful case. For everyone involved. I so hope these kids are found soon.

There are a couple of parts in this story that don't make sense to me. In no way do I mean to blame the family here, because I couldn't even begin to comprehend the suffering they must be going through. But the version of events over the two days these kids went missing does not add up with her husbands admission that she wasn't allowed to be alone with the children. I feel like there were some big alarm bells throughout these 2 days and I can't help but wonder why the people around her, knowing her history and her issues with mental illness, didn't start questioning things sooner?

Her father picked up her and the kids and took them back to his home. She then takes Jacob to 'get pizza' in her dad's car and they allow this despite her not being allowed around the children alone?

3 HOURS goes by. It's taken 3 HOURS for Catherine to get a pizza and return home. Now if I were the parents - knowing I'd just done the wrong thing by allowing her to take Jacob along by herself - I would be seriously freaking out? Yet I have to assume they aren't concerned because...

When she finally does return home 3 hours later she doesn't have the child nor a pizza. She explains she's made a sudden decision to visit a friends home instead and then leave Jacob there. Again, despite Catherine not being allowed unsupervised contact with her children AND having been gone for 3 HOURS her parents aren't concerned by this turn of events and don't check the story out with the "friend".

So Catherine heads home with Sarah. She puts her to bed then goes to bed herself. From what I've read we aren't clear on whether the husband was home when she arrived or what time he arrived home that night. I'm going to assume he wasn't home when they arrived, didn't get home until late, didn't check in on the kids and just went to bed. He was still asleep in the morning when Catherine got up and left the house with Sarah. He was none the wiser that Jacob wasn't in the house.

When he does awake neither of the kids are there and Cathrine explains that they are at a trial day at a daycare center. This in itself is odd to me. Something thing like putting your children into daycare is a decision you usually make over time. And one that your children's father does know about prior. You don't just wake up one morning and think 'hey I might put my children into the first daycare center I can find this morning'. This would be an odd thing for someone who's mentally stable to do... So if someone with a mental illness suddenly comes up with it how do you not question that?? Or check it out for yourself?

The only way I can think of to explain this behavior from the family is this. Catherine was actually fully functioning well as a mother to her children and was indeed left to care for them on her own quite regularly as any mum is. Her state of mind had - up until Jacobs disappearance - been good enough that her husband and parents didn't feel the need to question her on the whereabouts of either child immediately following her returning without them. I am no expert on mental illness or paranoid schizophrenia so I ask the following genuinely wanting to understand, not because I'm trying to cast doubt.

If she has had an episode and taken the children and either hid them or god forbid done the worst in a paranoid or delusional state that has spanned a week or more? Going from the time she took Jacob, then Sarah and finally when she herself took off and then spent days wandering around aimlessly and sleeping in random buildings. If that is the case how did nobody else in that time notice the psychotic episode happening? Is it something that the person can consciously hide if they need to? I mean she even went to a doctors appointment hours after leaving the Sarah and even they didn't pick up on the fact something was off? If something in her mind had freaked her out enough for her to take her children away surely some of that fear would be seen by the parents, husband or doctors during the 24 hour period all of this happened in?

Sorry for the novel, I just can't get past the fact that she's managed to lose the two children on separate occasions within hours and nobody else finds out something is amiss until almost a full 24 hours later. Especially given that the people around her KNOW she's mentally ill. I am still hoping and praying that these kids are somewhere safe. And that Catherine is able to give LE some answers soon.

 

[blefuscu]

A psychotic episode can come on gradually or very quickly. When Catherine went to her medical appointment it could have been noted that she was acting either in a guarded manner or that she was experiencing delusional thoughts. We wouldn't know unless the physicians were going to reveal that to the public which is unlikely at the moment.

Psychosis can make sufferers very devious. For example a few years ago I was going through a psychotic episode. My car keys were taken from me by my parents and I was meant to stay with my brother to keep me safe. Somehow, and even I'm not sure how, I managed to get hold of the spare car keys, I waited until my brother was asleep, I left the house, got to my car, took it and drove from Newcastle to Edinburgh in Scotland. While my parents knew I wasn't well they had no clue I was THAT poorly, and had no idea that I would steal my own keys and car and abscond. It's not something I would do while well. But I hid my paranoia and need to escape from them.

 

[liveshere]

This is such an awful case. For everyone involved. I so hope these kids are found soon.

There are a couple of parts in this story that don't make sense to me. In no way do I mean to blame the family here, because I couldn't even begin to comprehend the suffering they must be going through. But the version of events over the two days these kids went missing does not add up with her husbands admission that she wasn't allowed to be alone with the children...

Thank you. You summed up my feelings as well. And how many 2-year-olds do you know who have sleepovers at a friend's house, especially on the spur of the moment with no planning? The children's dad was concerned enough to call 911 when Catherine and the kids were gone, but then hung up when she came back with the daycare trial story? These questions bother me, but I remind myself, LE is not sharing everything for us. And just like you, I'm gut wrenched for the family so I'm not trying to point fingers. I just don't understand some of the things that happened over that very long period of time before the kids were reported missing, and since those hours were so critical, it hurts.