ME - Lewiston, Mass Shooting, Multiple Scenes, 18 killed *shooter found dead* Oct 2023 #2

[waldojabba]

The Maine public safety commissioner sounds like a real idiot and should be replaced. The biggest issue in this case--yet AGAIN--is that nobody who is known to be mentally ill should have any access to guns. Jeez....the killer in the Texas' largest mass shooting was former military. The military failed to alert the FBI data base in that case 6 years ago.
JMO
From your link:
But Maine Department of Public Safety Commissioner Michael Sauschuck said in news conference Saturday that while Card had a history of mental illness, there was no evidence that he had ever been involuntarily committed.

“Just because there appears to be a mental health nexus to this scenario, the vast majority of people with mental health diagnosis will never hurt anybody,” Sauschuck said.

Jody Madeira, an Indiana University law professor who has studied gun laws, said police in one state can alert counterparts in another state that someone is a danger, and the military can do the same with local police.

She said someone dropped the ball because Card’s threats and medical evaluation should have triggered a yellow flag seizure of his guns when he returned home.

“He slipped through the cracks,” Madeira said. “There were warning signs.”
******************************************************

DOJ tentatively settles over Texas church shooting for $144M

The Justice Department says it has tentatively settled a lawsuit over the 2017 mass shooting at a Texas church that will pay victims and their families more than $144 million.

apnews.com

Kelley had served nearly five years in the Air Force before being discharged in 2014 for bad conduct, after he was convicted of assaulting a former wife and stepson, cracking the child’s skull. The Air Force has publicly acknowledged that the felony conviction for domestic violence — had it been put into the FBI database — could have prevented Kelley from buying guns from licensed firearms dealer.

@MyBelle I can’t say as I disagree with you on this one !

Also from the article - they went to RC’s house to follow up on the threat but he was not home - so that was the end of it? You can hear the balls dropping right there. Did they check with his relatives? Alert his employers etc? Get a feel for things?
Nope. It seems they just moved on. I think when all is said and done there will be some hard learned lesions from this one. Fingers crossed.
“ Sagadahoc County Sheriff Joel Merry, whose jurisdiction includes Card’s home in Bowdoin, said the Army Reserve tipped his department in September to the reservist’s threats, and the sheriff sent the awareness alert to every law enforcement agency in the state after his deputy came back empty-handed from a welfare check to Card’s home.
“We couldn’t locate him,” Merry said, adding that he couldn’t recall if there was any follow-up because “I don’t have any reports in front of me.”
Yikes. JMO.

 

[thefragile7393]

I don't agree and it certainly is something one cannot prove without knowing complete histories of mass murderers-- There are evil people- they are not mentally ill: there are racists- they are not mentally ill----there are sociopaths- they are not considered mentally ill--- they just have no conscience

Psychiatry.org

Mayo Clinic

The one tying factor is going to be personality disorders, which are in the DSM-5. It's just there's no medications for ones with personality disorders because, well, it's a disorder of the personality and of thinking and not something medications can correct. They still know right from wrong. Your mass murders will have some sort of personality disorder-antisocial personality disorders (which cover sociopathy, psychopathy), Narcisstic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, etc etc.. Sometimes there are other diagnoses that go with it, ones that medications can help with. Plus, having a mental illness or a diagnosis does not mean one is insane. So the answer about mental illness is that it can be both-there's not always a component that can be medicated, but there's always a component that is a disorder of the personality. A personality disorder IS considered a mental health diagnosis.

 

[waldojabba]

I don't agree and it certainly is something one cannot prove without knowing complete histories of mass murderers-- There are evil people- they are not mentally ill: there are racists- they are not mentally ill----there are sociopaths- they are not considered mentally ill--- they just have no conscience

“Sociopath” now referred to as antisocial personality disorder is on the DSM. So it’s a diagnosable mental health condition.

Antisocial Personality Disorder - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

JMO

 

[Ontario Mom]

@MyBelle I can’t say as I disagree with you on this one !

I certainly can. OP posits that "nobody who is known to be mentally ill should have any access to guns".

Loads of different "mental illness" dx would fall under that category and most of which, according to the professionals, are not prone to violence in the least. Yet, there are some who believe a mental illness dx automatically denies them their 2A rights.

Stripping any American citizen of their constitutional rights should be a BIG deal, and require demonstrable proof the citizen is a danger to themselves or others.

jmo

 

[Marysmith]

The one tying factor is going to be personality disorders, which are in the DSM-5. It's just there's no medications for ones with personality disorders because, well, it's a disorder of the personality and of thinking and not something medications can correct. They still know right from wrong. Your mass murders will have some sort of personality disorder-antisocial personality disorders (which cover sociopathy, psychopathy), Narcisstic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, etc etc.. Sometimes there are other diagnoses that go with it, ones that medications can help with. Plus, having a mental illness or a diagnosis does not mean one is insane. So the answer about mental illness is that it can be both-there's not always a component that can be medicated, but there's always a component that is a disorder of the personality.

100%!!

 

[Glimma0927]

Can you share a link that states all mass killers have some form of mental illness?

I guess we don't know for sure if ALL have mental illness, because many of them were untreated prior to the event and end up dying (by cop or suicide) before they can be interviewed by psychologists.

Mass Shooters: A Systematic Psychiatric Study

About 87% were misdiagnosed and wrongly treated or undiagnosed and untreated.

www.psychologytoday.com

Many U.S. Mass Shooters Had Untreated Mental Illness: Study | San Diego Hospital, Healthcare

myhealth.ucsd.edu

 

[thefragile7393]

I certainly can. OP posits that "nobody who is known to be mentally ill should have any access to guns".

Loads of different "mental illness" dx would fall under that category and most of which, according to the professionals, are not prone to violence in the least. Yet, there are some who believe a mental illness dx automatically denies them their 2A rights.

Stripping any American citizen of their constitutional rights should be a BIG deal, and require demonstrable proof the citizen is a danger to themselves or others.

jmo

absolutely. Someone having anxiety or depression alone should not be a reason for them to not be able to exercise their 2nd ammendment rights.

 

[thefragile7393]

“Sociopath” now referred to as antisocial personality disorder is on the DSM. So it’s a diagnosable mental health condition.

Antisocial Personality Disorder - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

JMO

It's one of several antisocial disorders, psychopathy is another...

 

[MyBelle]

I certainly can. OP posits that "nobody who is known to be mentally ill should have any access to guns".

Loads of different "mental illness" dx would fall under that category and most of which, according to the professionals, are not prone to violence in the least. Yet, there are some who believe a mental illness dx automatically denies them their 2A rights.

Stripping any American citizen of their constitutional rights should be a BIG deal, and require demonstrable proof the citizen is a danger to themselves or others.

jmo

The entire point of Red Flag laws is to allow family members to ask a Judge to temporarily remove weapons from their loved ones who are displaying signs of mental instability to ensure they don't harm themselves or anyone else.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and everything to do with saving lives.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

@MyBelle I can’t say as I disagree with you on this one !

Also from the article - they went to RC’s house to follow up on the threat but he was not home - so that was the end of it? You can hear the balls dropping right there. Did they check with his relatives? Alert his employers etc? Get a feel for things?
Nope. It seems they just moved on. I think when all is said and done there will be some hard learned lesions from this one. Fingers crossed.
“ Sagadahoc County Sheriff Joel Merry, whose jurisdiction includes Card’s home in Bowdoin, said the Army Reserve tipped his department in September to the reservist’s threats, and the sheriff sent the awareness alert to every law enforcement agency in the state after his deputy came back empty-handed from a welfare check to Card’s home.
“We couldn’t locate him,” Merry said, adding that he couldn’t recall if there was any follow-up because “I don’t have any reports in front of me.”
Yikes. JMO.

I've wondered about why they didn't contact Card's employers. Where was he staying? Was he already hunkered down somewhere?

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I don't agree and it certainly is something one cannot prove without knowing complete histories of mass murderers-- There are evil people- they are not mentally ill: there are racists- they are not mentally ill----there are sociopaths- they are not considered mentally ill--- they just have no conscience

Racism should be a mental illness, though. And definitions are always evolving. I know professionals in mental health who DO treat it as a mental illness; DSM is just a guide.

Racists are mentally ill.

I don't know how you can define evil, but I respect your view that it exists. I don't know any evil people, but I know lots of mentally ill people. Some mental illness (such as that of Charles Manson) is clearly correlated with what I personally think is evil. I think Joe DeAngelo had a severe personality disorder and is a psychopath (a mental condition).

Sociopaths ARE considered mentally ill by many psychiatrists and psychologists. It's becoming more common for both professions to talk about it in that way and research. Tons of academic articles by both disciplines on sociopathy being a mental illness (psychopath is a near synonym and refers to multiple psychological illnesses at once).

Not having a conscience is very well studied (and has a biological basis and is part of several different mental illnesses).

All IME, but I do disagree about your definition of evil. A psychopath is both evil and mentally ill.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

It's one of several antisocial disorders, psychopathy is another...

They are all interrelated and the level of the academic debate requires quite a bit of study. Experts disagree.

I agree with you completely: we now have several different kinds of diagnoses for "severe antisocial disorders."

All of which are pointing back to things inside the brain.

 

[Ontario Mom]

The entire point of Red Flag laws is to allow family members to ask a Judge to temporarily remove weapons from their loved ones who are displaying signs of mental instability to ensure they don't harm themselves or anyone else.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and everything to do with saving lives.

JMO

I've seen several members point out to you, as you've repeatedly brought this up on this thread, that these red flag laws you allude to, do not exist in the state of Maine.

Not to mention, "red flag laws" have very specific parameters, and don't just single out folks "known to be mentally ill", as you've stated. Maine has what is called a "yellow flag" law. Many of the sites are paywalled for me but anyone can google the requirements for the state of Maine yellow flag law to see how & when they're applied.

As it pertains to THIS case, it's already being argued by folks in Maine on how/if/why it (the yellow flag law) might need some tweaks or adjustments because in this case, it seems as if it wasn't/couldn't be enforced, and therefore didn't apply.

 

[MyBelle]

Maine doesn't have red flag laws.

Maine has a yellow flag law that didn't work for whatever reason. As a result, yet another community mourns the loss of friends and loved ones to a horrific tragedy that could have been easily prevented by a Red Flag law. It would have enabled them to contact a judge directly to confiscate firearms from their mentally unbalanced loved ones.

JMO

Maine's 'yellow flag' law scrutinized as 'woefully weak' after mass shooting

Gun safety advocates said it is a watered-down version of the “red flag” laws adopted by 21 states, which have fewer procedural barriers.

www.nbcnews.com

Gun safety advocates ripped Maine’s firearm laws as ineffective Friday after a suspected gunman, whose family said he was experiencing an “acute” mental health episode, allegedly shot dead more than a dozen people, triggering an ongoing manhunt.

“Our gun laws are woefully weak,” said Cam Shannon, chair of the nonprofit Maine Gun Safety Coalition. “We have long felt that this is a question of not if, but when.”

...At a news conference Friday, police officials in Maine declined to answer when asked whether law enforcement had been warned about Card and failed to act under the state’s yellow flag law.

“I’m not gonna talk about who knew what and when,” said Michael Sauschuck, the commissioner of the Maine Department of Public Safety...

...Suplina said "all of this could have been avoided."

 

[MyBelle]

I don’t think the general public really understands how red flag laws work or how mental health inpatient stays work.

One, regardless of laws in New York, this guy lived in Maine and killed people in Maine. My understanding is that Maine doesn’t have red flag laws, so the criticism of “why didn’t someone do something” based on red flag laws simply doesn’t apply here.

Two, unfortunately, a two week long inpatient mental health stay is actually quite long compared to the handful of days that’s far more typical. Insurance companies aren’t paying for more than a few days in most cases to get someone “stable” on psych meds. Since there’s not really a way to “test” if meds are working or not except by asking the patient things like do you want to hurt yourself or others, it becomes exceedingly difficult to keep someone inpatient psych who doesn’t want to be there bc all they have to do is play the game and say they aren’t having those thoughts any more.

Maine has a Yellow Flag law that didn't work because Card's mental instability and mental health inpatient was in another state. It also didn't allow his family to go directly to a judge to ask that his access to weapons be temporarily restricted.

JMO

 

[Luna20]

I've wondered about why they didn't contact Card's employers. Where was he staying? Was he already hunkered down somewhere?

JMO

His employer is the one who initiated getting him to the mental health facility. For whatever reason he was out in 2 weeks.

 

[Betty P]

Not all mass killers are mentally ill

Very true. Some are just exceptionally horrible people who like hurting others and who want to be famous.

 

[thefragile7393]

They are all interrelated and the level of the academic debate requires quite a bit of study. Experts disagree.

I agree with you completely: we now have several different kinds of diagnoses for "severe antisocial disorders."

All of which are pointing back to things inside the brain.

yeah I’m not touching that academic debate with a 20 foot pole…..logic and common sense go out the window and tunnel vision starts up at that point with too many experts arguing with each other.

The forming of the personality and how they develop can be interesting but ultimately it’s rather draining to try and study, IMO.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Hero story. All hail Mr. Giberti.

‘That’s what heroes do’: Man saved the lives of children while being shot 7 times

The co-owner of Just-In-Time Recreation in Lewiston estimated that Thomas Giberti saved the lives of at least 8, and possibly as many as 12, youth bowlers between the ages of 5 and 18 years old during Wednesday night's mass shooting.

www.bangordailynews.com

 

[Seattle1]

BTW, the interpreter has been amazing through all of this. You can see her emotions, which makes me wonder if she knew any of the deaf victims.

Yes she did. There's a MSM report showing a photo of one of the victims and the interpreter. I think it's in the previous thread.