Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[Montjoy]

Lots of foreigners at those places, some bringing diseases we don't typically see, as well.

And let's not overlook unvaccinated American tourists putting themselves and others at risk when they travel and bring home preventable illnesses such as the measles -- it's not just foreigners traveling to the US that are responsible.

 

[K_Z]

gitana1 wrote:

Ive been pretty vocal about what can be done. Vaccines became widespread and commonly accepted due to rational education. Not telling those with fears that they are stupid, selfish or criminal.

I think need to back off the panicked vitriol against people opposed or concerned and begin calm and simple education programs like we used to have in the 50's etc. PSA's explaining the studies- who was tested an what the results were. Repeatedly

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(Snipped for focus.)

Generally, I agree with this. When I was in the military overseas, Armed Forces TV didn't have regular commercials, but always had PSAs about health, or national parks, etc. My favorite was "Your Eyebrows- Wear them with Pride!"

I think a widespread PSA campaign educating people about vaccines and diseases would be a good thing. It depends on the level of information, and the target audience (PBS vs MTV vs ESPN, etc). However, I also think that the positions of those that are vehemently opposed to vaccines would not change with this educational strategy, and they may even become more strident and vocal in their "anti-propaganda" efforts. This group is ever more convinced that they alone have the "truth", and science and medicine is "the enemy". I'd like to think persistent education and re-education would penetrate that thinking, but my feelings are that they'd just become more marginalized and more entrenched than they already are.

So, I really don't know what the right answer is. Something has to be done. We can't just sit back and allow eradicated diseases to flourish again, and shrug our shoulders-- that kind of failure is just not an option.

I do think that the anti-vaccination issues are now more and more likely to be fought in the legislatures and courts, than in general public education and discussion. I don't generally think that's a good way to change harmful health behavior choices, but if nothing else works, than that's what we have left. Hopefully the strident discussions associated with trying to pass legislation will persuade some folks to re-examine their stance on vaccines. Because the legislative process will be slooooowwww and cumbersome (as it should be).

I think it's interesting that some clinics are trying to ban non-vaccinators from their practices (and I wonder if there will be a court challenge coming there), but that won't do much. The unvaccinated who are exposed and contagious will still move about freely in society, and show up to hospitals as visitors and patients.

 

[MyBelle]

Ha ha. I'm with you. I wouldn't hsve made it past 12 if not for modern medicine. (Also need inhalers here!)



Ive been pretty vocal about what can be done. Vaccines became widespread and commonly accepted due to rational education. Not telling those with fears that they are stupid, selfish or criminal.

I think need to back off the panicked vitriol against people opposed or concerned and begin calm and simple education programs like we used to have in the 50's etc. PSA's explaining the studies- who was tested an what the results were. Repeatedly.

Also, no religious exemptions for those who go to public schools or work in government jos, the medical ie
field, etc. I think that's already the case with hospitals. Religious freedoms can be restricted when the greater good outweighs the right being taken away. In this case, workers who work with populations who are often sick (emergency calls for police, fire and paramedics often involve sick people), means their risk of being exposed or spreading a disease to fragile populations, is huge. As actually, besides Christian science, I don't think any religion is against vaccines. No philosophical exemptions for those people either.



As to Disneyland, they are a private business and and have great grounds for excluding unvaccinated people when there are outbreaks. I doubt this outbreak is considered serious enough for that though.

But children with compromised immune systems should not be going to busy public places anyhow. Flus, colds, and a million other diseases are easily spread in such places. I see newborns at airports and casinos, malls and Disney. Insane. Those are all cesspools of bacteria and viruses. Lots of foreigners at those places, some bringing diseases we don't typically see, as well.

Well said. Unfortunately, it is impossible to legislate common sense. There is a reason Walmart has anti-bacterial wipes by the entrance yet I see people plop their babies in the carts and roll right past it.

 

[MyBelle]

And let's not overlook unvaccinated American tourists putting themselves and others at risk when they travel and bring home preventable illnesses such as the measles -- it's not just foreigners traveling to the US that are responsible.

In that scenario, isn't the only risk is to those who are not vaccinated? The un-vaccinated person who gets the measles and the un-vaccinated person they give it to.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Ive backed off on this thread, because yes, opening this up to the idea that vaccines are a concept that can be "discussed"-- well, i cant deal with it. Im not the person to try to patiently pursuade a strong antivaxxer to vaccinate.

A recent study (someone else please find the link because im nearly done with this topic) showed you CAN't discuss the reasons to vaccinate a child with an antivaxxer at any level (PSA, facts, gentle patience) because ANY attempt to do so results in the antivaxxer digging in and holding on desperately to their beliefs.

I think within the group of people who have exemptions, there are some who just didnt think about it-- like why vaccinate for measles when measles were eradicated in the us in 2000. This person has likely already gone to vaccinate his/her child because of this outbreak.

I'd love to see numbers nationally of percentage of people who have gone off waiver because of this outbreak-- but id like the numbers to be for like june of after so we can if it was any real movement or just a few scared people.

I think herd immunity might be o.k. If those people who didnt vaccinate, but arent strongly committed to the movement, went and vaccinated their kids because suddenly the threat of measles was more real.

 

[Hiandmighty]

In that scenario, isn't the only risk is to those who are not vaccinated? The un-vaccinated person who gets the measles and the un-vaccinated person they give it to.

There are a small small percentage of people who get vaccinated but who dont develop meaningful immunity to the disease. Also, people with cancer or other diseases that destroy their immune system can get measles even if they were vaccinated because their immune system is suppressed. But they probably arent at disneyland like others have mentioned... OTOH, people with serious life-threatening illnesses travel all the time by public transportation to get second opinions or to go to a specialty disease treating center.

 

[MyBelle]

There are a small small percentage of people who get vaccinated but who dont develop meaningful immunity to the disease. Also, people with cancer or other diseases that destroy their immune system can get measles even if they were vaccinated because their immune system is suppressed. But they probably arent at disneyland like others have mentioned... OTOH, people with serious life-threatening illnesses travel all the time by public transportation to get second opinions or to go to a specialty disease treating center.

People with compromised immune systems do travel and they also wear masks, which was my point.

 

[bexlex]

BBM. Yeah, I'm actually not buying that. The symptoms of serious autism are apparent in infants and toddlers up to the age of the first vaccine. They do not point. They do not make a lot of eye contact, or use many words typically. They don't do things like play peek-a-boo or mimic facial expressions. Those symptoms do not suddenly appear. They are always there.

Except in cases of what is called "regressive autism". Regressive autism makes up about a third of all autism cases. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22855372

What the people who believe vaccines caused their kid's autism are discussing is regressive autism. In other words, a totally healthy child developing completely normally, pointing, calling for a parent's attention, developing a significant and good vocabulary of words, interacting with parents, snuggling, laughing in response to facial expressions or raspberries, etc., suddenly stops doing all of that and becomes a morose, isolated child, unable to speak or interact, with a host of bowel issues, often with roseola,suddenly stimming and completely lost to the world.

And these anecdotes do not describe children who develop these symptoms some time after the MMR vaccine. They describe children who immediately react to the vaccine by becoming listless and feverish and then immediately begin losing words, within a day or two of the vaccine and immediately regress. Not weeks nor months. Days.

I have read account after account and watched video after video, that show exactly what the parents claim. Normal, healthy kid developing normally who suddenly doesn't only stop developing but regresses to non-verbal and unable to interact.

I think it is rare. I think the possibility that there is a connection and if so, the risk of it occurring, does not outweigh even closely, the benefit of the vaccines. But to make blanket statements that totally dismiss
the reality for the parents affected or to repeat pronouncements that may not actually be accurate, is to create further distrust and alienate certain populations more.

IMO!

That sounds less like autism and more like brain damage from encephalitis...equally bad...the vaccine gave them a full blown case of measles that left them with permanent brain damage. ?????

 

[Hiandmighty]

People with compromised immune systems do travel and they also wear masks, which was my point.

Right, I'm just talking. Like other people have said, in order to truly prevent diseases, a person needs to wear a respirator and not just a mask.

 

[MsFacetious]

Also, my daughter with a weak immune system got the chicken pox from the vaccine.
She spent a week in the hospital. After that, she STILL did not have immunity from chicken pox. :twocents:

We can only do selective vaccinations with her.
My other daughter is allergic to eggs, same policy of selectively vaccinating.

With the next child we will have to wait a few months before we can vaccinate.
So that we can do some tests to ensure the child will be able to tolerate the vaccines.
We also have heart defects, so Cardiology will clear the child before it gets vaccinated. :twocents:

Not everyone who doesn't vaccinate is a crazy person trying to sicken your child. :twocents:

 

[Hiandmighty]

We have discussed (and i feel much compassion for) people who can't immunize because of medical reasons. No one is throwing shade on this portion of the population and it's this portion of the population who DEPENDS on herd immunity.

My son got the chicken pox shot and years later still developed chicken pox, though it was a very mild case and it went away after 3 days with no scars. He also has had mono twice, which is supposedly next to impossible to get a positive mono spot twice in your life...

 

[MsFacetious]

My kids had strep as babies, also pretty uncommon.

My point is that I'm not thrilled about vaccinations to begin with.
We do not get the flu vaccine because we have more negative reactions than positive.
I do get the pertussis one... (I am expecting my 3rd child and making sure my entire family gets it.)

I may have been one of the anti-vaxxers if circumstances hadn't dictated my vaccine stance.

However, it was decided by my children's PEDIATRICIAN that I would not be vaccinating on schedule.
And I recently found out that they do make you sign a form if you refuse vaccinations.
It says that you are "knowingly endangering your child" and you admit to doing that.
So apparently my kids are just exceptions to every single rule. :twocents:

 

[Hiandmighty]

FWIW, we never got the flu shot until a few years ago when the flu started mutating into these super strains. He and my friend the palliative care doctor started to see way too many 18-25 years olds who wound up in hospice dying from the flu. Last year was a particularly bad year and it really left them shaken. (They still talk about how bad last year was).

We started getting the flu shot about 5-7 years ago.

 

[bexlex]

My daughter is a doctor in Vancouver. One of the children in the hospital there who contacted measles through the Disneyland exposure has died. The child was under a year old and was unvaccinated. Of course the medical people are infuriated. The death was most likely avoidable.

That poor baby!!:cry:

 

[MyBelle]

Right, I'm just talking. Like other people have said, in order to truly prevent diseases, a person needs to wear a respirator and not just a mask.

A respirator is tad over-the top, imo. I work at a Ronald-McDonald House and no child there wears a respirator.

My mother went through chemo three different times and each time, she wore a paper mask given to her by the oncologists. No problem.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Is no problem unless you come face to face with someone with measles, TB, SARS, Ebola, etc. yes, I agree, a respirator is way over the top for the public.

 

[Morag]

Passing laws is a slow process. Pediatricians, by refusing to accept non-vaccinated children, can make things happen faster. But the only thing that will really get the anti-vaxxers' attention is a genuine epidemic. God help us all.

And for those who recommend putting masks on babies under one year of age, well, how is that supposed to work? You'll also have to tie their little hands behind their backs to ensure that the masks remain in place. And you probably wouldn't want to sit near a masked baby on a bus or airplane, or anywhere else, because those babies are going to cry vigorously for many hours. Starts to look like infant abuse, doesn't it? Most of us don't take our babies out and about much, but sometimes you have to.

I don't think we should allow science-deniers to control public health issues. Our country is better and smarter than that.

 

[MyBelle]

Passing laws is a slow process. Pediatricians, by refusing to accept non-vaccinated children, can make things happen faster. But the only thing that will really get the anti-vaxxers' attention is a genuine epidemic. God help us all.

And for those who recommend putting masks on babies under one year of age, well, how is that supposed to work? You'll also have to tie their little hands behind their backs to ensure that the masks remain in place. And you probably wouldn't want to sit near a masked baby on a bus or airplane, or anywhere else, because those babies are going to cry vigorously for many hours. Starts to look like infant abuse, doesn't it? Most of us don't take our babies out and about much, but sometimes you have to.

I don't think we should allow science-deniers to control public health issues. Our country is better and smarter than that.

I don't believe anyone is under an edict to take their 1-year-old to Disneyland.

 

[bexlex]

My kids had strep as babies, also pretty uncommon.

My point is that I'm not thrilled about vaccinations to begin with.
We do not get the flu vaccine because we have more negative reactions than positive.
I do get the pertussis one... (I am expecting my 3rd child and making sure my entire family gets it.)

I may have been one of the anti-vaxxers if circumstances hadn't dictated my vaccine stance.

However, it was decided by my children's PEDIATRICIAN that I would not be vaccinating on schedule.
And I recently found out that they do make you sign a form if you refuse vaccinations.
It says that you are "knowingly endangering your child" and you admit to doing that.
So apparently my kids are just exceptions to every single rule. :twocents:

Spacing out your shots sounds like a smart practice in your situation. Surely we are not lumping your scenario into the "anti-vaxxer" group? Is what you describe similar to P.A.N.D.A kids?

 

[LinasK]

Is no problem unless you come face to face with someone with measles, TB, SARS, Ebola, etc. yes, I agree, a respirator is way over the top for the public.

Yup! I was working in a nursing home examining a patient whom I was not told had TB when he coughed on me. I didn't know it until I took the Tyne wrist test and it showed positive the size of a quarter. I wasn't given the chance to preventatively protect myself from this patient who arrived from the Philippines with TB. I had to take a drug called INH every single day for one year, if I traveled I had to take it with me, camping trip or not. It was a royal pain, but it kept me from getting TB. Now, I can't take the Tyne test ever again to check for exposure, I must get chest x-rays, another inconvenience.