Measles: To Disneyland and Beyond

[gitana1]

More and more of the research is indicating that autism has a genetic etiology and that it begins manifesting during gestation.

The only reason it rears its ugly head around the time of vaccination is because vaccination often occurs at the same time as one would expect to see autism being expressed in a child. It's a coincidence of timing.

Anecdotes do not data make. One can also find anecdotes of families with a child who became autistic after receiving vaccines, withheld them for the next child, only to find out that the second child is autistic. I can think of two actual acquaintances right off the top of my head. Research has been done by people all over the world, not just by US pharma and medical interests and has shown no link to vaccines.

The original study which gave new life to the anti vaccine movement had 12 subjects. Only 12. Forgetting for a moment that it turned out the author of this study was found to have committed multiple ethical and scientific method breaches, 12 subjects in any study can AT MOST simply indicate the need for more study. One certainly cannot draw any solid conclusions off a study with so few subjects. More studies should be done and the results MUST be replicated numerous times before one can get a sense that the results are clinically significant. It simply hasn't happened.

BBM. Yeah, I'm actually not buying that. The symptoms of serious autism are apparent in infants and toddlers up to the age of the first vaccine. They do not point. They do not make a lot of eye contact, or use many words typically. They don't do things like play peek-a-boo or mimic facial expressions. Those symptoms do not suddenly appear. They are always there.

Except in cases of what is called "regressive autism". Regressive autism makes up about a third of all autism cases. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22855372

What the people who believe vaccines caused their kid's autism are discussing is regressive autism. In other words, a totally healthy child developing completely normally, pointing, calling for a parent's attention, developing a significant and good vocabulary of words, interacting with parents, snuggling, laughing in response to facial expressions or raspberries, etc., suddenly stops doing all of that and becomes a morose, isolated child, unable to speak or interact, with a host of bowel issues, often with roseola,suddenly stimming and completely lost to the world.

And these anecdotes do not describe children who develop these symptoms some time after the MMR vaccine. They describe children who immediately react to the vaccine by becoming listless and feverish and then immediately begin losing words, within a day or two of the vaccine and immediately regress. Not weeks nor months. Days.

I have read account after account and watched video after video, that show exactly what the parents claim. Normal, healthy kid developing normally who suddenly doesn't only stop developing but regresses to non-verbal and unable to interact.

I think it is rare. I think the possibility that there is a connection and if so, the risk of it occurring, does not outweigh even closely, the benefit of the vaccines. But to make blanket statements that totally dismiss
the reality for the parents affected or to repeat pronouncements that may not actually be accurate, is to create further distrust and alienate certain populations more.

IMO!

 

[gitana1]

So you are saying every human has the exact same response when coming in contact with measles? Or all communicable diseases?

No. Of course not. But measles is highly contagious and there is no avoiding transmission under the scenario I outlined.

Is it possible that a very healthy person may fare better and develop a less severe case? Yes. But not always. IMO.

 

[gitana1]

Part of why I am not dismissive of anti-vaccinators:

It's all over social media — the posts calling parents "dumb" or even "criminal" for failing to vaccinate their kids against measles. But could the heated public discussion about vaccines in fact lower vaccination rates?


While a little social pressure is good, experts who have studied the psychology of the vaccine doubters say it's counterproductive to be accusatory — or even to try provide a little well-meaning education.
"When you attack somebody's values, they get defensive," said risk communication expert David Ropeik. "It triggers an instinctive defensiveness that certainly doesn't change the mind of the vaccine-hesistant person."
And some of the criticism on cable television, social media and in mainstream newspapers and magazines is starting to look like bullying, Ropeik and other experts said.


"When they get defensive they carry their campaign more fervently, and that has the chance of poisoning other people," said Ropeik.
"There are millions of people who are ambivalent to some degree. When they hear the people being picked on defend their views, that has the real prospect of turning some of those people against vaccines." http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/me...xperts-fighting-anti-vaccine-movement-n298956

 

[gitana1]

Actually, the rate of unvaccinated individuals contracting measles after exposure is approx. 90-98%, though it's probably far higher than 90% in someone who happened to be so close as to get a face full of infected snot vs. someone far away from the patient or who enters an infected environment after the patient has left the room. In either case, its incredibly high, but not 100%.

I believe you. Can you link me to something to read about that? TIA!!

 

[gitana1]

What age mom constitutes "degraded eggs?" I had my first child at 22. My second at 39, and my last at 41. None of my children have any type of disability, or cognitive impairment.

Just wanted to throw that out there, to allay the fears of any women who might feel they have "degraded eggs".

I know. I put it in quotes. I was being somewhat facetious. It is a fact, however, that older, wealthier parents have a higher rate of children diagnosed with autism. But they also tend to get their kids assessed more often.

 

[gitana1]

We do quarantine people with communicable diseases. Right now there are people sitting at home with their children because these children were exposed to measles. They are in quarantine.
Why should we waste valuable resources because some people refuse to vaccinate their healthy children?
And for child with cancer, measles could be a death sentence.
They can't be vaccinated so they depend on "herd immunity." But because not all people are vaccinating, we are losing our "herd immunity."

The rate of people quarantined compared with the rate of people not quarantined who have communicable diseases is negligible. It's almost nothing. Quarantines are very, very, exceedingly rare.

And yeah, kids with cancer are at greater risk of the herd fails to vaccinate totally. I get that. It's a big problem.

 

[gitana1]

Uhhh, yeah we do! Personally, I've been feeling crappy in the last few weeks due to a lingering cold, and now caught a stomach bug on Super Bowl Sunday. I've been completely miserable when I haven't taken medicines to relieve the symptoms. And I do know what it's like to feel good when I'm not sick!!! Eating healthy won't help you fight off Cancer either, that's magical thinking.

BBM

Wait. That is NOT true. Not at all.

There are repeated studies indicating diet is pivotal in not developing cancer:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002096.htm

http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/expert-qa-anti-cancer-diet-karen-collins

There are also those that state easting healthy when you have it may increase the chance of survival:

In one study, high saturated fat intake reduced survival from prostate cancer. In another study, monounsaturated fat intake lowered the risk of death from prostate cancer.

In the lab, flaxseed (and compounds from flaxseed) seems to have slowed cancer cell growth and helped certain treatments work better. In 2 small studies, patients with breast or prostate cancer who were put on a flaxseed rich diet before surgery had lower rates of cancer cell growth (in their tumors) than the patients on other diets.

More and more evidence suggests that being overweight or obese raises the risk for recurrence (the cancer coming back) and reduces the odds of survival for many cancers. Increased body weight has been linked with higher death rates for all cancers combined.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/sur...-cancer-treatment-answers-to-common-questions

Also, my dad's oncologist told us that cancer cells feed on sugar. But he also said that it was more important to eat as much as possible no matter what it is because not eating (common with chemo) would kill you faster than sugar.

 

[nrdsb4]

BBM. Yeah, I'm actually not buying that. The symptoms of serious autism are apparent in infants and toddlers up to the age of the first vaccine. They do not point. They do not make a lot of eye contact, or use many words typically. They don't do things like play peek-a-boo or mimic facial expressions. Those symptoms do not suddenly appear. They are always there.

Except in cases of what is called "regressive autism". Regressive autism makes up about a third of all autism cases. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22855372

What the people who believe vaccines caused their kid's autism are discussing is regressive autism. In other words, a totally healthy child developing completely normally, pointing, calling for a parent's attention, developing a significant and good vocabulary of words, interacting with parents, snuggling, laughing in response to facial expressions or raspberries, etc., suddenly stops doing all of that and becomes a morose, isolated child, unable to speak or interact, with a host of bowel issues, often with roseola,suddenly stimming and completely lost to the world.

And these anecdotes do not describe children who develop these symptoms some time after the MMR vaccine. They describe children who immediately react to the vaccine by becoming listless and feverish and then immediately begin losing words, within a day or two of the vaccine and immediately regress. Not weeks nor months. Days.

I have read account after account and watched video after video, that show exactly what the parents claim. Normal, healthy kid developing normally who suddenly doesn't only stop developing but regresses to non-verbal and unable to interact.

I think it is rare. I think the possibility that there is a connection and if so, the risk of it occurring, does not outweigh even closely, the benefit of the vaccines. But to make blanket statements that totally dismiss
the reality for the parents affected or to repeat pronouncements that may not actually be accurate, is to create further distrust and alienate certain populations more.

IMO!

I already stated that scientists are finding manifestations of autism in utero. My remarks about the 18 month olds are in reference to these "sudden" appearances of autism around the time of the vaccines.

With all the research done on this, there has been no study which has found a causative link between "regressive autism" and vaccines.

You can "I don't buy it" all you want. But if vaccines cause autism, it should be able to be shown to be the case in study after study, not simply in anecdotes and "videos," assuming they are done according to scientific method and proper study procedures. Especially if children are dropping into instantaneous autism immediately upon vaccination!

On the other hand, the more research is done, the more it appears to have a genetic etiology. We have a lot of research to do, but one cannot make a case for vaccines causing autism because the evidence is not there. A parent insisting it is so simply doesn't make it so.

But this is not the place for the autism argument. That's not what the thread is about.

 

[LinasK]

BBM

Wait. That is NOT true. Not at all.

There are repeated studies indicating diet is pivotal in not developing cancer:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002096.htm

http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/expert-qa-anti-cancer-diet-karen-collins

There are also those that state easting healthy when you have it may increase the chance of survival:

In one study, high saturated fat intake reduced survival from prostate cancer. In another study, monounsaturated fat intake lowered the risk of death from prostate cancer.

In the lab, flaxseed (and compounds from flaxseed) seems to have slowed cancer cell growth and helped certain treatments work better. In 2 small studies, patients with breast or prostate cancer who were put on a flaxseed rich diet before surgery had lower rates of cancer cell growth (in their tumors) than the patients on other diets.

More and more evidence suggests that being overweight or obese raises the risk for recurrence (the cancer coming back) and reduces the odds of survival for many cancers. Increased body weight has been linked with higher death rates for all cancers combined.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/sur...-cancer-treatment-answers-to-common-questions

Also, my dad's oncologist told us that cancer cells feed on sugar. But he also said that it was more important to eat as much as possible no matter what it is because not eating (common with chemo) would kill you faster than sugar.

That wasn't the point I was making. Diet may well play a part in helping Cancer, but NOT diet alone as some posters would advocate.

 

[jjenny]

I already stated that scientists are finding manifestations of autism in utero. My remarks about the 18 month olds are in reference to these "sudden" appearances of autism around the time of the vaccines.

With all the research done on this, there has been no study which has found a causative link between "regressive autism" and vaccines.

You can "I don't buy it" all you want. But if vaccines cause autism, it should be able to be shown to be the case in study after study, not simply in anecdotes and "videos," assuming they are done according to scientific method and proper study procedures.

On the other hand, the more research is done, the more it appears to have a genetic etiology. We have a lot of research to do, but one cannot make a case for vaccines causing autism because the evidence is not there. A parent insisting it is so simply doesn't make it so.

But this is not the place for the autism argument. That's not what the thread is about.

Exactly. Not a single reputable study showed that vaccinations cause regressive autism.

 

[LinasK]

I already stated that scientists are finding manifestations of autism in utero. My remarks about the 18 month olds are in reference to these "sudden" appearances of autism around the time of the vaccines.

With all the research done on this, there has been no reputable study which has found a causative link between "regressive autism" and vaccines.

You can "I don't buy it" all you want. But if vaccines cause autism, it should be able to be shown to be the case in study after study, not simply in anecdotes and "videos," assuming they are done according to scientific method and proper study procedures.

On the other hand, the more research is done, the more it appears to have a genetic etiology. We have a lot of research to do, but one cannot make a case for vaccines causing autism because the evidence is not there. A parent insisting it is so simply doesn't make it so.

But this is not the place for the autism argument. That's not what the thread is about.

I totally agree with this post!!!:clap::clap::goodpost:
P.S. I brought up the subject because it is a thread that involves vaccines/parental choice.

 

[nrdsb4]

I believe you. Can you link me to something to read about that? TIA!!

Well, it's in multiple sources, but from the CDC:

Measles Vaccines
Composition - Live virus
Efficacy - 95% (range, 90%-98%)
Duration of Immunity - Lifelong
Schedule - 2 doses
Should be administered with mumps and rubella as MMR or with mumps, rubella and varicella as MMRV

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html#measles

Measles is highly contagious among unvaccinated individuals:

Communicability
Measles is highly communicable, with greater than 90% secondary attack rates among susceptible persons. Measles may be transmitted from 4 days before to 4 days after rash onset. Maximum communicability occurs from onset of prodrome through the first 3–4 days of rash.

 

[nrdsb4]

I totally agree with this post!!!:clap::clap::goodpost:
P.S. I brought up the subject because it is a thread that involves vaccines/parental choice.

Yes, I see you corrected my post to add "reputable." I am okay with that.

 

[nrdsb4]

I am not going to participate further in the autism argument because I think it takes away from the point of the thread.

There are MANY parents who do not vaccinate their kids for reasons not having anything to do with fears of autism in particular, so I don't want that to get lost in an autism thread.

Of course, anyone is free to start a thread on the autism/vaccine issue.

 

[Brightbird]

I'm so conflicted over vaccinations. My dad is very anti "big pharma" (old hippy) and I wasn't vaccinated as a child. I did get the MMR one in primary school, against my dad's wishes, because I didn't want to be the odd one out at school. I travelled to SE Asia with no vax's on a long trip with my Dad at age 16. I never got anything more than a two day stomach bug. While I do think vax's are overall safe and have helped control some nasty diseases like polio, I'll always have mixed feelings. If I ever have children I'll get them vaccinated (I may pick and choose though) because I think it's unfair to rely on other parents vaccinating their kids, but at the same time I'm glad I never had any except that one in primary school and I don't intend on getting anymore (except perhaps for travel).

 

[LinasK]

I'm so conflicted over vaccinations. My dad is very anti "big pharma" (old hippy) and I wasn't vaccinated as a child. I did get the MMR one in primary school, against my dad's wishes, because I didn't want to be the odd one out at school. I travelled to SE Asia with no vax's on a long trip with my Dad at age 16. I never got anything more than a two day stomach bug. While I do think vax's are overall safe and have helped control some nasty diseases like polio, I'll always have mixed feelings. If I ever have children I'll get them vaccinated (I may pick and choose though) because I think it's unfair to rely on other parents vaccinating their kids, but at the same time I'm glad I never had any except that one in primary school and I don't intend on getting anymore (except perhaps for travel).

Don't you worry about contracting measles, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, shingles for yourself??? There are adult booster vaccines for some of these diseases.

 

[nrdsb4]

I'm so conflicted over vaccinations. My dad is very anti "big pharma" (old hippy) and I wasn't vaccinated as a child. I did get the MMR one in primary school, against my dad's wishes, because I didn't want to be the odd one out at school. I travelled to SE Asia with no vax's on a long trip with my Dad at age 16. I never got anything more than a two day stomach bug. While I do think vax's are overall safe and have helped control some nasty diseases like polio, I'll always have mixed feelings. If I ever have children I'll get them vaccinated (I may pick and choose though) because I think it's unfair to rely on other parents vaccinating their kids, but at the same time I'm glad I never had any except that one in primary school and I don't intend on getting anymore (except perhaps for travel).

You were likely very healthy, maybe a little lucky overseas, but more importantly, you also benefited greatly from "herd immunity."

The more people refuse vaccinations for their children, the more likely it is that the benefits of herd immunity will be lost, or certainly severely reduced.

 

[LinasK]

Uhhh, yeah we do! Personally, I've been feeling crappy in the last few weeks due to a lingering cold, and now caught a stomach bug on Super Bowl Sunday. I've been completely miserable when I haven't taken medicines to relieve the symptoms. And I do know what it's like to feel good when I'm not sick!!! Eating healthy won't help you fight off Cancer either, that's magical thinking.

Just talked to a good friend of mine, ironically one of the anti-vaxxers, with whom I spent a good deal of time this weekend and the last several days, and she also came down with the same stomach bug that I had, but it was a bit worse, lasted longer. I'm thinking my flu shot just might have helped mine from being worse!!

 

[Confusion]

I had my sons vaccinated, even though I didn't expect them to die from measles, just like I strapped them into car seats before driving, even though I didn't expect to have an accident. One of my sons did have problems with the shots; he had a swollen bruise at the injection site, a temp of 101-102, and enough pain to cause him to wake up screaming if the corner of a blanket happened to touch the spot. Most of his problems happened within a couple of hours of receiving the shot and lasted for close to a week. He also happens to be autistic, but I don't believe the two are related in the way many people would.

This son showed signs of problems before birth. He was extremely active, seldom slept, and sometimes had an erratic heartbeat. when he was born, there were signs of nerve damage - his heels were a bit pulled up (which later caused him to walk on his toes), he entertained himself for hours, but was constantly screaming if in a crowd, he was extremely particular about what he ate, seemingly based more on texture than on taste, and seldom looked at people when they talked to him. It didn't get better or worse with immunizations. I always thought it had more to do with the fact that I had pre-eclampsia for the last month of pregnancy and the umbilical cord was wrapped around his neck at birth.

The time I worry most about unimmunized people is when a woman who wasn't immunized becomes pregnant. Being exposed during pregnancy can cause serious damage to the fetus, and there isn't anything that can be done to correct it once the damage is done. (I have no links for that, it's just knowledge from books, pamphlets and video I saw years ago about it.) Avoiding people with measles isn't enough to prevent it since they are contagious before they show any signs of illness. I don't understand gambling with your child's life that way, but others probably say the same thing about me and some of the things I've done in my life.

MOO

 

[Brightbird]

Don't you worry about contracting measles, mumps, chicken pox, small pox, shingles for yourself??? There are adult booster vaccines for some of these diseases.

I'm not worried at all. I had to prove my immunity for Uni, and I have antibodies for measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox and whooping cough.