Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[SMK]

Eehh .. I am not sure how to answer that Some questions I can understand but others go a little far. I don't believe there is one single piece of evidence or even a witness that is accepted by the innocence side. Everyone is being coerced, or part of the evil Mignini conspiracy. It just goes way too far. The starting point is 'they must be innocent and therefore all the evidence must be false'. It is much easier to follow the evidence, accept the verdicts and then you can still be critical of the investigation. JMO.

Right, well it has crossed my mind that Mignini MAY have stumbled on "the delusion which holds a grain of truth". I just wish this case were clearler because when I follow the evidence, I keep coming up with reasonable doubt. Not with Guded, because of his criminal history, his DNA inside of Meredith, his admitting he was there at the cottage, and put towels to her bleeding neck. His lack of blaming AK and RS. But with the latter, I cannot be sure, but I has me doubts. I has me doubts....:waitasec:

 

[sherlockh]

Right, well it has crossed my mind that Mignini MAY have stumbled on "the delusion which holds a grain of truth". I just wish this case were clearler because when I follow the evidence, I keep coming up with reasonable doubt. Not with Guded, because of his criminal history, his DNA inside of Meredith, his admitting he was there at the cottage, and put towels to her bleeding neck. His lack of blaming AK and RS. But with the latter, I cannot be sure, but I has me doubts. I has me doubts....:waitasec:

Okie

 

[SMK]

Okie

:floorlaugh:

 

[OldSteve]

wow,I have never read that e-mail before.Here is a working link to it in it's entirety

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/from-amanda-knox.html

There is so much that stands out to me.While I might not agree with the other analysis that "water" signifies sexual abuse,AK no doubt is a sexual person,she mentions undressing,showers,underwear whenever it's completely unnecessary.
That's just a side note,it just stood out to me,don't think it has anything to do with the crime.
The first thing that stood out to me is how she describes the last time she saw MK was when she still had blood dripping down her neck from her costume.The mention of the blood in particular really makes me think AK saw the body.
The next thing that made me think omg is how she noticed all the strange things in her house but she waits until after she mops RS kitchen floor to tell him about it.That and how she points out that she locked the door makes me think i may be right about her trying to deny what she saw.
This part however floored me and makes me think twice again how much was AK really involved in this?
" all together we checked the houe out,
talked to the polie,a nd in a big they all opened merediths door.
i was in the kitchen stadning aside, having really done my part for
the situation. " WTH does she mean???? another Freudian slip?
overall it really is sickening how much she talks about herself and whines about being hungry and freezing and having to pay rent and getting sick from vending machine food etc etc etc but not one word of remorse or empathy toward her dead friend....I really can't stand her....but that does not make her a murderer......

Thanks for posting the link!

It should be mentioned how AK started her email by saying, "The last time i saw meredith, 22, english, beautiful, funny, was .... "

 

[SMK]

Thanks for posting the link!

It should be mentioned how AK started her email by saying, "The last time i saw meredith, 22, english, beautiful, funny, was .... "

Right, to tell you the truth, I never liked that part because to me, it sounds forced and disingenuous. However, Amanda's quirky speech patterns do not make her guilty to my thinking unless the evidence clearly states it so. I know what you mean, that she was honoring Meredith, but I don't like the way it "scans". Does not mean she is involved, tho.

 

[otto]

Actually the medium time time for digestion is 82 minutes. IIRC there initially had been some confusion as to the time she had last ate as well the prosecution thought that there had been an error made but in fact the duodenum had in fact been tied off correctly and was confirmed as he video taped the autopsy thus I believe the only one trying to extend the time was the prosecution

Stomach contents are not at all reliable in determining time of death. So many factors come into play such as type of food, health of individual, activity levels after digestion ... it goes on and on.

 

[otto]

Some witnesses were not so sure about the time they heard or saw something, other witnesses were more sure. Maria Ilaria Dramis for example was sure that she went to bed about 11:30pm when she heard running footsteps. Everything combined Massei puts the time of the fatal attack and running at about 11:30pm.

From reading Dempsey, all the facts she raises also point to a time of death closer to midnight.

 

[otto]

otto, I won't opine about the hotheadedness of Italians, but you are right that many of these interrogation techniques are standard operating procedure.

The problem is the ever-growing body of evidence that those techniques quite often produce false testimony.

Disagree. Before the use of DNA, when eye witness testimony alone put people in jail, there was a higher incidence of miscarriage of justice. Now, with DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision, investigators are more careful to aim for the truth ... at least in many countries. Coercing the truth does not result in false memories. 2 hours of questioning does not result in false testimony, not even in people with an IQ of 80.

 

[SMK]

From reading Dempsey, all the facts she raises also point to a time of death closer to midnight.

Why did they originally say 9:30-10:30?

 

[otto]

So you see Bernardo as the dominant partner in that homicidal pair.

Yet Mignini sees Amanda Knox as dominant not only in a pair, but in a trio.

Big difference!

I see it as a dynamic between a couple ... something that happens from time to time.

 

[SMK]

Dempsey is basing TOD on the last cell call to bank. She says so plainly. But the person did not know the code to punch in. Had it been Meredith, or had she been alive, she would have given the code. I believe she was dead when this person tried to access her bank funds.

Dempsey:10:00 p.m. Someone makes a call on Meredith’s cellphone to her bank in the UK. It doesn’t go through because the caller didn’t punch the proper area code for London. The prosecution is sparring with Raffaele’s defense team over whether that call came from Meredith’s house or from the location where the phone was eventually found–an elderly neighbor’s garden. If the latter, then Meredith was most probably already dead.

10:25 p.m. Rudy says he left Meredith’s around this time. Afterward he went dancing at the Domus disco. Later he fled to Germany, where he was extradited after being caught riding a train without a ticket.

10:30 p.m. A black man running up the street near the cottage nearly knocks over an Italian man, according to witness reports. Neighbor Nara Capezzali reports hearing a terrible scream that night, but can’t remember when. She also heard people running but cannot say how many.

10 p.m.-11p p.m. Time of death, based on the last cellphone call.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/10/27/meredith-kercher-timeline-her-last-12-hours/

 

[otto]

Why did they originally say 9:30-10:30?

No idea ... investigators everywhere are still sorting out the details up until the time of trial.

 

[otto]

Dempsey is basing TOD on the last cell call to bank. She says so plainly. But the person did not know the code to punch in. Had it been Meredith, or had she been alive, she would have given the code. I believe she was dead when this person tried to access her bank funds.

Dempsey:10:00 p.m. Someone makes a call on Meredith’s cellphone to her bank in the UK. It doesn’t go through because the caller didn’t punch the proper area code for London. The prosecution is sparring with Raffaele’s defense team over whether that call came from Meredith’s house or from the location where the phone was eventually found–an elderly neighbor’s garden. If the latter, then Meredith was most probably already dead.

10:25 p.m. Rudy says he left Meredith’s around this time. Afterward he went dancing at the Domus disco. Later he fled to Germany, where he was extradited after being caught riding a train without a ticket.

10:30 p.m. A black man running up the street near the cottage nearly knocks over an Italian man, according to witness reports. Neighbor Nara Capezzali reports hearing a terrible scream that night, but can’t remember when. She also heard people running but cannot say how many.

10 p.m.-11p p.m. Time of death, based on the last cellphone call.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/10/27/meredith-kercher-timeline-her-last-12-hours/

I'll flip through her book again later and pull out the statements where time of death is later.

We don't know who made that bank call. It could have been Meredith accidentally hitting a programmed number. The bank sent an automatic message about 15 minutes later and that message was deleted without being read. That sounds more like Meredith than Rudy. Rudy was throwing the phones away ... why would he delete a message, especially when he didn't even turn off the phones.

 

[SMK]

Dempsey is basing TOD on the last cell call to bank. She says so plainly. But the person did not know the code to punch in. Had it been Meredith, or had she been alive, she would have given the code. I believe she was dead when this person tried to access her bank funds.

Dempsey:10:00 p.m. Someone makes a call on Meredith’s cellphone to her bank in the UK. It doesn’t go through because the caller didn’t punch the proper area code for London. The prosecution is sparring with Raffaele’s defense team over whether that call came from Meredith’s house or from the location where the phone was eventually found–an elderly neighbor’s garden. If the latter, then Meredith was most probably already dead.

10:25 p.m. Rudy says he left Meredith’s around this time. Afterward he went dancing at the Domus disco. Later he fled to Germany, where he was extradited after being caught riding a train without a ticket.

10:30 p.m. A black man running up the street near the cottage nearly knocks over an Italian man, according to witness reports. Neighbor Nara Capezzali reports hearing a terrible scream that night, but can’t remember when. She also heard people running but cannot say how many.

10 p.m.-11p p.m. Time of death, based on the last cellphone call.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/10/27/meredith-kercher-timeline-her-last-12-hours/

AND THIS TIMELINE OF CHARLES MUDEDE I WOULD CALL PURE FANTASY:

15:48 (November 1, 2007): Meredith texts her English friends that she will be late from her meeting with them.
16:00 - Meredith leaves the house in Via della Pergola to go to the home of her friends. A few minutes later Raffaele and Amanda leave the cottage in Via della Pergola to go Sollecito’s place.

18:00 - Amanda Knox leaves Raffaele Sollecito’s house. This shown by cell phone records.

18:27 - Raffaele Sollecito interacts with his laptop to watch the film "Amelie".

20:18 - Amanda Knox, in Via Ulisse Rocchi, receives sms from Patrick Lumumba telling her not to go to work that night.

20.30 - Amanda Knox goes back to Via Garibaldi to home of Raffaele Sollecito.

20:38 - Amanda sends sms in reply to Patrick Lumumba.

20:46 - Sollecito turns off his mobile phone. He is still at home in Via Garibaldi.

20:45 — Meredith’s frugal meal with English friends ends. She starts off in the direction of Via della Pergola with a girlfriend who will leave her halfway to go to her home.

21:00 - Meredith is at home, eats a mushroom, lies down on the bed to read some uni lecture notes.

21:10 — No more human interaction on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer.

21:45 - Amanda and Raffaele leave his apartment and go to Piazza Grimana. A few ten of metres away from Via della Pergola, the two young people are talking and watching the house and deciding what to do. They have a suspicious attitude which is reported in court by Curatolo

23:20 - Amanda opens the door of Via della Pergola.

23.20 - Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy enter the house in Via della Pergola, where Meredith was already present. On the video, as explained by the PM, there is no vision about the meeting between Amanda and Rudy, because the reconstruction is based on testimony, the autopsy evidence and medical findings.

23:21 - Amanda and Raffaele go into the bedroom while Rudy goes to the bathroom.

23:25 — A scuffle begins between Amanda, helped by Raffaele, and Meredith. The English girl is taken by the neck, then banged against a cupboard, as shown by wounds to the skull. She resists all this. Rudy Guede enters.

23:30 - Meredith falls to the floor. The three try to undress her her to overcome her; they only manage to take off her trousers. The girl manages to get up, she struggles. At this point, the two knives emerge from the pockets of Amanda and Raffaele: one with a blade of four to five centimetres, the other however a big kitchen knife. Meredith tries to fend off the blades with her right hand. She is wounded.

23:35 — The assault continues. Sollecito tries to rip off the English girl's bra.

23:40 - Meredith is on her knees, threatened by Amanda with the knife while Rudy holds her with one hand and with the other hand carries out an assault on her vagina. There is first knife blow on her face, then straight away another. However these blows are not effective. The three become more violent. With the smaller knife, Sollecito strikes a blow: the blade penetrates 4 centimetres into the neck. There is a harrowing cry , which some witnesses will talk about. Amanda decides to silence her, still according to the video brought to court by the prosecutors, and strikes a blow to the throat with the kitchen knife: it will be the fatal wound. Meredith collapses on the floor.

23:45 — Meredith is helped to get up by Rudy and is coughing up blood. The English girl, dying, is dragged along so that she can continue to be undressed.

23:50 - Amanda and Raffaele take Meredith’s mobile phones and leave the apartment. Only Meredith - dead - and Rudy remain in the house. The Ivorian goes into the bathroom to get several towels to staunch the blood flowing from the English girl's body, then puts a cushion under Meredith's head, as shown by hand prints, according to the prosecution.

00.10 - Meredith's mobile phones are thrown into a garden in Via Sperandio.

00.15 From this moment there are no certainties, according to the video, on the times for the sidetracking which will be put in action by Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito. However, according to the prosecution, in the depth of the night the two ex-lovers will return to the scene of the crime to try and clean up some footprints and to break the window pane of a room in Via della Pergola with the aim of simulating a robbery ending in murder.

Amanda and Raffaele then undress the already deceased victim - the bra will be left a few centimetres from the body - and they will cover her with a feather quilt.http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/12/05/the-hypothetical-timeline-of-knoxs-murder-of-meredith-kercher

 

[OldSteve]

Disagree. Before the use of DNA, when eye witness testimony alone put people in jail, there was a higher incidence of miscarriage of justice. Now, with DNA, and an awareness of tunnel vision, investigators are more careful to aim for the truth ... at least in many countries. Coercing the truth does not result in false memories. 2 hours of questioning does not result in false testimony, not even in people with an IQ of 80.

I've seen many real life crime shows where long interrogations actually did result in false testimony.

I'm sure you, like I, would say we would never do that, but I've been amazed to find it happens.

One trick I've seen was where LE says to a suspect something along the lines of "can you imagine how someone might do this, etc... " and then they turn the person's guessing, or imagining how something could happen into a confession.

But it's bogus, and that's a big reason why it's imperative that interviews are always video and audio taped.

 

[SMK]

I'll flip through her book again later and pull out the statements where time of death is later.

We don't know who made that bank call. It could have been Meredith accidentally hitting a programmed number. The bank sent an automatic message about 15 minutes later and that message was deleted without being read. That sounds more like Meredith than Rudy. Rudy was throwing the phones away ... why would he delete a message, especially when he didn't even turn off the phones.

a bleeding Meredith with a cut throat would be fooling with her cell, punching #s and deleting, instead of calling 112???????:waitasec:

 

[SMK]

I've seen many real life crime shows where long interrogations actually did result in false testimony.

I'm sure you, like I, would say we would never do that, but I've been amazed to find it happens.

One trick I've seen was where LE says to a suspect something along the lines of "can you imagine how someone might do this, etc... " and then they turn the person's guessing, or imagining how something could happen into a confession.

But it's bogus, and that's a big reason why it's imperative that interviews are always video and audio taped.

Right! this is what they appear to have done to Amanda, and why she later said it was "unreal" to her.

 

[otto]

I've seen many real life crime shows where long interrogations actually did result in false testimony.

I'm sure you, like I, would say we would never do that, but I've been amazed to find it happens.

One trick I've seen was where LE says to a suspect something along the lines of "can you imagine how someone might do this, etc... " and then they turn the person's guessing, or imagining how something could happen into a confession.

But it's bogus, and that's a big reason why it's imperative that interviews are always video and audio taped.

Amanda was questioned for 2 (two) hours, one without an interpreter, and then she signed her own statement accusing Patrick. Have you ever seen a crime show where a University student did that because he or she was too mentally discombobulated to understand the truth?

 

[Nova]

Am I understanding this correctly? We actually have 2 coercions? Was he brainwashed by 10 people simultaneously as well? What about RG? Was he not coerced? I don't like the guy, but I just wonder why is he never included in this kind of 'logic'?

I haven't really followed RG's case, so I have no opinion on his various tales.

But coerced testimony is not uncommon, despite what you and otto would like to believe.

In his statement RS places himself with AK in the town square until 9 pm, but we KNOW they were at his apartment when the friend stopped by and spoke with AK, when RS' father called, when they started (at least) the movie, etc.

RS' lies not only don't correspond with the known facts, they don't even help him personally. They are merely attempts to say whatever will get him out of the room.

 

[otto]

a bleeding Meredith with a cut throat would be fooling with her cell, punching #s and deleting, instead of calling 112???????:waitasec:

Why would you write that? That's disgusting.

It is quite possible that Meredith accidentally hit a programmed number on her phone, and later deleted the automatic message she received from the bank. That happened at 10:15. That means the attack could have started after 10:15.