Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #10

[claudicici]

Are you suggesting that Knox was sociopathic and did not have empathy for the fact that Meredith was uncomfortable with her rabbit vibrator dangling in the bathroom and the men she dragged home?

...not sociopathic but pretty damn clueless IMO

 

[ziggy]

I agree that coercions happen and any coercion is one too many, but to imply that they are common I don't agree with. Percentage wise it is a rare occurrence. Same with LE lying and covering up for each other. It happens and it shouldn't happen but fortunately it is rare. For some reason, in this case coerced statements, and LE lying under oath are all seen as totally normal.

The percentage is completely irrelevant when you must consider that these situations are possible and with the facts we know, I would say they all seem quite probable. You must not only weigh the history of the department and detectives to see if this is sort of an unspoken procedure, or perhaps a regional or cultural thing AND THEN you have to go into the subjective mind of the one being interrogated.

In our own country many factors must be taken into consideration -
* her age is one of them
* the size of the room
* where the room is located in the building (is it way in the belly of the beast?)
* are there windows
I where the police sit in relations to the suspect (are they between the door and the suspect?)
* what time it is
* how long have they been questioning
* how much sleep the person being questioned has gone without or how much food and water have they gone without
* where is their purse/shoes/car keys
* how much experience the have with the legal system
* intelligence level and in this case THE ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND AND COMMUNICATE (the language barrier is a huge problem in this case)
* is the interpreter certified and how experienced
* would they have any bias because of who butters their bread??? (or olive oils it maybe in this case )
* would a REASONABLE PERSON OF THE SAME AGE AND INEXPERIENCE WITH THE LEGAL SYSTEM IN GENERAL AND ESPECIALLY OF A FOREIGN COUNTRY FEEL FREE TO GO???;

Oh and don't forget the biggie!!!!! it has to be recorded!

I don't think it's even REASONABLE to simply give any law enforcement agency the benefit of the doubt. I mean, why else did we figure we needed Constitutional rights? Miranda? naaaa, the Sixth Amendment right to counsel??? naaaa, Shucks Barn, that hardly ever happens, here in Mayberry, no need for any analysis of the situation.

I think there is a fair argument that AK felt coerced and that a reasonable person of her age and familiarity with the legal system COULD feel that way and because false confessions are a solid fact; we can presume that it is possible in this case.

PS: if you were defending your life would you care if it hardly ever happened? I think the point is that if it happened to you, that wouldn't matter. The only real relevant fact is that false confessions can and do happen and then we each have to decide how we feel based on what we know about the players in this case. I hope you never have to hire a defense attorney

 

[ziggy]

Oh sherlockh: I was also going to mention that IF the particular LEOs feel that within their little community they can get past the rules; they will. It's only when cops and prosecutors started getting evidence thrown out due to their own either calculated decision at the time not to follow the rules, or their mistaken belief that they could get away with it - do they start to change their ways. I love cops and I want to be a prosecutor, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the ways of man and our inherent flaws.

 

[claudicici]

Reading RS's diary, I'm wondering why this can't be proved. Couldn't his apartment landlord prove some water damage, if it was all that he says it was here?

I don't remember in reality at what time I ate, but certainly I ate
and Amanda ate with me. The questions the agents of the Squadra Mobile
me have made me to remember that that day the water pipe under to sink
was detached and thing I find very suspicious, I've seen that it is
not possible to so detach alone, at any rate, the fact is that it
flooded half the house.

IF RS thought this below, wondering why he would think it'd be believable to stage a break in through FR's window. aren't they the same height?

Turning around I thought to
access Meredith's room by window and tried to find where, after I
discovered that the only access to the window was unthinkable heights,
and therefore I had to rethink.

Confused by this disappearing and reappearing crap:

We took a turn around
the house and Amanda is terrified and jumps on me because she tells me
that in the toilet there was no more **** because presumably before,
when she was taking a shower, had seen in the bathroom there was a
**** and nobody had pulled the water. I face and look within the
reflection in the water and not see the **** give for good what Amanda
said to me.

RS claims he told the PP to break the door but they wouldn't until more people arrived to press them.

For Amanda comes to mind that these phones were
Meredith's and I ask the police to break the door.
Initially, the police refused to violate privacy, but after Filomena
arrived, her boyfriend and their respective friends, he was convinced
to break in the door.

well,the staged break in I assume would not require anyone to climb through the window,even RS admits that's impossible...or is it another Freudian slip and he's really telling AK I told you no one would believe someone climbed through that window?
I think the whole **** mess was explained somewhere,when AK first returned she saw the ****,the second time she returned with RS it had settled at the bottom (???) so they could not see it and made AK think the killer was still there the first time she was there (was he?????is that another Freudian slip???Did she hear Meredith scream,did she see a black man?did that make her turn on PL so easily?)

 

[JBean]

OKay where this post lands is random but mods are growing weary of this thread.
Extra latitude has been afforded to you all because there was some seriously informative and good debate happening.
Please keep the thread from deteriorating to a collection of petty remarks aimed at one another.
Thanks.

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't too much know what to think about RS's diary, but it's certainly interesting the changes he goes through from believing in AK to doubting Ak to believing in her again. He goes from announcing his fate to kind of having a "was it worth it" convo with Jesus. He tells us that he was told he was having panic attacks. And it sounds like he was.

The story about the knife is a problem for me, but I don't think it indicates guilt. Maybe RS is fooling me, but he sounds about as lost in this whole tale has I had assumed he must have been.

For the knife part, I think he's impressionable and he's repeating theories from his lawyers and getting them confused with reality. I think that because he wrote that the lawyer said DNA on the knife meant nothing because AK could have borrowed it, because they had no knife at the cottage. Then later, RS talks about this cooking with MK story. So for some reason, I just think he made it up, but believes it's real.

If I were to read the diary while assigning motives to RS, then I'd probably see something totally different.

What I find most difficult to believe is that he seriously can't remember anything. I mean, he doesn't even remember that friend that alibied him. The one with the mother who had the suitcase. If I were a cop, I'd have to say I'd find that incredible to believe that he really, really has no friggin memory of this stuff.

Apparently after a few days, he got priviliages, which let him watch TV, read newspapers and have visitors. So as early as this first week or so there, he was able to read about evidence. Also his visitors and lawyers told him things. So I think it's safe to assume that at least by then, they were being made aware of what evidence there was. I say that because there has been questions about what AK knew and when she knew it in relation to her PL statement.

If they are truly innocent, then I find it incredible how he, even seriously not remembering and not knowing for sure what happened, trusts that AK didn't do it and was with him. He seems to momentarily question it, but in the end, he becomes more grounded in his belief that they were together the whole time.

I just can't believe he seriously couldn't remember NOTHING at that point. I know what everyone has been saying about the drugs and everything, but it's one thing to discuss that, and quite another to actually read his ponderance about it.

It could be that the diary is an elaborate hoax to substaniate his claim that he's a hapless victim and is really like a leaf caught in a tornado. I just don't know what I think about it, because I'm incredulous about the fact that he doesn't remember.

 

[ziggy]

Are you suggesting that Knox was sociopathic and did not have empathy for the fact that Meredith was uncomfortable with her rabbit vibrator dangling in the bathroom and the men she dragged home?

Hey don't knock the rabbit vibrator man -it was all the rage on Sex in the City. Do you have one? Didn't you like it? Too noisey? Latex allergy? I'm kidding, but you're reading a lot into a person's character because of a vibrator. They were the "in" thing because of that TV show; now maybe that was simply a cultural difference and MK wasn't down with it. I don't think leaving it in a clear cosmetic bag when you live with all girls makes you a or is even a factor to consider. MK might have been hyper sensitive or just a more private person.

I have one sister who would be totally irritated by something like that because she's proper and private and another that would easily perpetrate it without even being aware it would bother anyone. She's no sociopath, she's the most sweet considerate, compassionate person when she knows someone is hurt or upset, but being linked in to the cues and clues others are giving isn't her strong point all the time.

It could have been the joke gift; we girls sometimes do those things. Regardless it says nothing about promiscuity.

 

[wasnt_me]

well,the staged break in I assume would not require anyone to climb through the window,even RS admits that's impossible...or is it another Freudian slip and he's really telling AK I told you no one would believe someone climbed through that window?
I think the whole **** mess was explained somewhere,when AK first returned she saw the ****,the second time she returned with RS it had settled at the bottom (???) so they could not see it and made AK think the killer was still there the first time she was there (was he?????is that another Freudian slip???Did she hear Meredith scream,did she see a black man?did that make her turn on PL so easily?)

Oh, so he was trying to say that AK got scared because she THOUGHT she didn't see the crap anymore, and she assumed the killer had returned and flushed it. Or was still on the premises.

AK most likely didn't see RG that morning. I'm guessing he was already trying to get to Germany.

Yeah, I was saying what you're saying about the window. If he was thinking it was too high, seems like if they faked it, they would have figured that out on their own and went to the balcony for the staged breakin and messed up stuff in the livingroom. Why choose to stage a breakin in FR's room in particular?

If the breakin was staged, could they have walked around the house and decided that MK's window was too high to be believed? But that brings me back to isn't FR's window the same height? Why not stage the break in within Mk's room?

 

[wasnt_me]

It could have been the joke gift; we girls sometimes do those things. Regardless it says nothing about promiscuity.

It says the opposite, if you think about it. Some women have those things so that they can stay out of trouble with men. Some have them because they are complete sexual freaks. And some are just regular women. Maybe she left it out and forgot once or twice. I had a friend who did that when I visited her house. She just blushed and put it away.

 

[ziggy]

Question: wasn't there only testimony that AK brought strange men back to the house? Were they strange because they were weird or they were strangers? And did those statements ever come from someone with personal knowledge of these men or from a hearsay source? Was there ever testimony that she would bring them home for sex, or just that "she brought strange men to the house"?

It's not really relevant to me for this case because it's just character evidence that probably doesn't have any bearing on anything. But I find it fascinating that it's been sensationalized.

If she was so into having many dudes, she wouldn't have latched onto RS so quickly. I think she was more comfortable being in a relationship. I think her willingness to have sex very quickly was more about insecurity - needing love and attention and security - than a wild sexual streak.

 

[claudicici]

Hey don't knock the rabbit vibrator man -it was all the rage on Sex in the City. Do you have one? Didn't you like it? Too noisey? Latex allergy? I'm kidding, but you're reading a lot into a person's character because of a vibrator. They were the "in" thing because of that TV show; now maybe that was simply a cultural difference and MK wasn't down with it. I don't think leaving it in a clear cosmetic bag when you live with all girls makes you a or is even a factor to consider. MK might have been hyper sensitive or just a more private person.

I have one sister who would be totally irritated by something like that because she's proper and private and another that would easily perpetrate it without even being aware it would bother anyone. She's no sociopath, she's the most sweet considerate, compassionate person when she knows someone is hurt or upset, but being linked in to the cues and clues others are giving isn't her strong point all the time.

It could have been the joke gift; we girls sometimes do those things. Regardless it says nothing about promiscuity.

yep,my neighbor gave me one as a joke gift when I left a very long time realationship....it's great for eye massages :loser: seriously

 

[claudicici]

Question: wasn't there only testimony that AK brought strange men back to the house? Were they strange because they were weird or they were strangers? And did those statements ever come from someone with personal knowledge of these men or from a hearsay source? Was there ever testimony that she would bring them home for sex, or just that "she brought strange men to the house"?

It's not really relevant to me for this case because it's just character evidence that probably doesn't have any bearing on anything. But I find it fascinating that it's been sensationalized.

If she was so into having many dudes, she wouldn't have latched onto RS so quickly. I think she was more comfortable being in a relationship. I think her willingness to have sex very quickly was more about insecurity - needing love and attention and security - than a wild sexual streak.

I totally,completely agree...and like Nova said in a previous post I usually disagree with Ziggy,even though she's my favorite person to disagree with...but this is also a point where we probably disagree again,I completely dislike AK for that very reason,her insecurity,her weakness,her "giddiness".....

 

[claudicici]

Oh, so he was trying to say that AK got scared because she THOUGHT she didn't see the crap anymore, and she assumed the killer had returned and flushed it. Or was still on the premises.

AK most likely didn't see RG that morning. I'm guessing he was already trying to get to Germany.

Yeah, I was saying what you're saying about the window. If he was thinking it was too high, seems like if they faked it, they would have figured that out on their own and went to the balcony for the staged breakin and messed up stuff in the livingroom. Why choose to stage a breakin in FR's room in particular?

If the breakin was staged, could they have walked around the house and decided that MK's window was too high to be believed? But that brings me back to isn't FR's window the same height? Why not stage the break in within Mk's room?

yes,it's weird how the crap is so significant,I never thought a crap could be so scary but given the circumstances I understand.
I think RS turned on AK because they told him about the guy she was with in the laundry,I think that made him think twice.
I don't understand either why they selected FR's room for the break in,whether staged or not,IMO no one cold have gotten into that window and yes,MK's room is on the same height but it doesn't seem to have the possibility to maybe get in from the side ?
I think RG gave a good clue about having waited for MK to return in his diary,I think that's a good possibility how he got in...

 

[otto]

Question: wasn't there only testimony that AK brought strange men back to the house? Were they strange because they were weird or they were strangers? And did those statements ever come from someone with personal knowledge of these men or from a hearsay source? Was there ever testimony that she would bring them home for sex, or just that "she brought strange men to the house"?

It's not really relevant to me for this case because it's just character evidence that probably doesn't have any bearing on anything. But I find it fascinating that it's been sensationalized.

If she was so into having many dudes, she wouldn't have latched onto RS so quickly. I think she was more comfortable being in a relationship. I think her willingness to have sex very quickly was more about insecurity - needing love and attention and security - than a wild sexual streak.

I think we need to clarify that Knox is desperate during this time of appeal, as are her supporters. They may resort to running around the internet raising the issue of cartwheels and whether Knox brought strangers home. It appeears to be some strange effort to focus on irrelevant issues ... perhaps hoping to take focus off the facts.

The appeal is underway in the Knox/Raffaele trial. Her family has said that the appeal is the real trial ... guess that's where we are.

 

[SMK]

What IS the DNA he left inside her body? Of course, I naturally thought sperm, but this "sexual assault" and not rape think throws me off.

Oh, and SMK, remember, RG claims he got his groove on, conscenually before having to take a crap. And "just then" the bad guy rushed in to do his dasterdly deed and blamed it on "the black" before disappearing into the night.

It was skin cells, from a digital assault. I doubt very much it was consensual, just as you do- and yes, that story is quite a tall tale in this context.

 

[SMK]

There have been reports that RG had a body odor problem. I don't have a link handy, but it has been linked here before.

(Don't even get me started on people who fail to flush toilets!)

Those who reported seeing him dancing at the disco said no one wanted to be near him as he smelt as though he hadn't washed in some time. I had the link, but am so tired just waking up now---will look:

In Candace Dempsey's book Murder in Italy: The Shocking of a British Student... it says on p. (on Google Books, the p. # is not showing) that Rudy headed to Club Domus, and danced alone because, as people reported, he smelled as though he had not showered in a long time."

 

[SMK]

Are you suggesting that Knox was sociopathic and did not have empathy for the fact that Meredith was uncomfortable with her rabbit vibrator dangling in the bathroom and the men she dragged home?

Yup. just what i said there, right, when I said she was "unaware". Obvious, ain't it? Who are these men she "dragged home"? It seems when she had the chance to be monogamous with RS, she took it. And in the 21st century, these items such as you make mention of are not really so shocking or telling. It is a new generation. Why is it that her friends back home recall her as gentle and caring? Demonize her all you want, these things are rather petty in so far as college girls rooming together go.

And I like what Ziggy said, it is worth repeating: (will copy/paste as I don't know how to do an additional quote block):

Hey don't knock the rabbit vibrator man -it was all the rage on Sex in the City. Do you have one? Didn't you like it? Too noisey? Latex allergy? I'm kidding, but you're reading a lot into a person's character because of a vibrator. They were the "in" thing because of that TV show; now maybe that was simply a cultural difference and MK wasn't down with it. I don't think leaving it in a clear cosmetic bag when you live with all girls makes you a or is even a factor to consider. MK might have been hyper sensitive or just a more private person.

I have one sister who would be totally irritated by something like that because she's proper and private and another that would easily perpetrate it without even being aware it would bother anyone. She's no sociopath, she's the most sweet considerate, compassionate person when she knows someone is hurt or upset, but being linked in to the cues and clues others are giving isn't her strong point all the time.

It could have been the joke gift; we girls sometimes do those things. Regardless it says nothing about promiscuity.

 

[SMK]

I think we need to clarify that Knox is desperate during this time of appeal, as are her supporters. They may resort to running around the internet raising the issue of cartwheels and whether Knox brought strangers home. It appeears to be some strange effort to focus on irrelevant issues ... perhaps hoping to take focus off the facts.

The appeal is underway in the Knox/Raffaele trial. Her family has said that the appeal is the real trial ... guess that's where we are.

How rude and condescending. Ugh. Buzz off. :razz: Kidding. What I mean to say, is, why sweep away all the refutations, when it is not yet a done deal? Might those on Knox's side have real and valid concerns? It seems unfair that the appeal is focused so narrowly on a few bits of data, when there are broader questions. And why did they originally say we would know the outcome May 21, and now it is September???

 

[SMK]

yes,it's weird how the crap is so significant,I never thought a crap could be so scary but given the circumstances I understand.
I think RS turned on AK because they told him about the guy she was with in the laundry,I think that made him think twice.
I don't understand either why they selected FR's room for the break in,whether staged or not,IMO no one cold have gotten into that window and yes,MK's room is on the same height but it doesn't seem to have the possibility to maybe get in from the side ?
I think RG gave a good clue about having waited for MK to return in his diary,I think that's a good possibility how he got in...

Do you have a link to that part about RG's diary? I have never seen it. Thanks.

 

[sherlockh]

It was skin cells, from a digital assault. I doubt very much it was consensual, just as you do- and yes, that story is quite a tall tale in this context.

I don't think they determined that. It was RG's Y chromosome only, but I don't want to get too technical otherwise I won't understand myself