Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[Nova]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can look at all those things as suspicious if you think the pair are guilty, but if you actually try to fit any of them into some sort of scapegoat plan none of it makes sense. I've asked this a dozen times, How did the bathmat shuffle help Amanda in any way? Hoe does not remembering a phone call help her? Hoe does showering at her place instead of RS's help her?

And while you're at it, what time did you eat dinner five days ago? (Doesn't count if it was a night when you had to be somewhere at a specific time.)

I know I couldn't say. I hope I'd know enough not to guess for the police.

 

[dgfred]

And while you're at it, what time did you eat dinner five days ago? (Doesn't count if it was a night when you had to be somewhere at a specific time.)

I know I couldn't say. I hope I'd know enough not to guess for the police.

How about:

Narrow your answer down to 4 hours... on the night YOUR flatmate was murdered. Would that help you out some?

 

[Malkmus]

And while you're at it, what time did you eat dinner five days ago? (Doesn't count if it was a night when you had to be somewhere at a specific time.)

I know I couldn't say. I hope I'd know enough not to guess for the police.

Exactly. I think a lot of this boils down to people either having excellent or rather poor memory (myself). I relate a lot to the supposed "guilty behavior" in this case because I have such trouble remembering when exactly things happened too. I'm not afraid to admit that if you asked me what I did last Wednesday night I haven' the slightest clue. Maybe I went to the gym after work, maybe I watched some TV instead or read a book. The only thing I know for sure is that since I went out Thursday with friends so that Wednesday I didn't. Beats me what I did! It's scary but my bad memory would probably land me in a Perugian jail cell to rot.
Just a guess, but I assume people like Fred must just have excellent memory - something they can't be faulted for. But they need to understand that we're not all wired that way.

 

[Nova]

How about:

Narrow your answer down to 4 hours... on the night YOUR flatmate was murdered. Would that help you out some?

The problem is you don't know your flatmate is going to be murdered, so you don't check the clock periodically and record your activities. Even the next day when you discover she is dead, if you know you didn't do it, you have no reason to think the time you ate will be important. By the time a few days go by and you are asked about it, you simply don't remember.

The only activity that night that was supposed to happen at a certain time was AK going to work. And I'm not sure her job was actually so exacting that punctuality was strictly demanded. A text message that says, "It's dead tonight, stay home" doesn't suggest a clockwork-type occupation.

So who knows what AK was thinking the first time she was asked when they had dinner? Then she was told she was wrong and began to guess a time that would satisfy LE. Obviously, she was way too accommodating to her interrogators.

She should have demanded a lawyer. Lesson for us all, I think.

 

[SMK]

The problem is you don't know your flatmate is going to be murdered, so you don't check the clock periodically and record your activities. Even the next day when you discover she is dead, if you know you didn't do it, you have no reason to think the time you ate will be important. By the time a few days go by and you are asked about it, you simply don't remember.

The only activity that night that was supposed to happen at a certain time was AK going to work. And I'm not sure her job was actually so exacting that punctuality was strictly demanded. A text message that says, "It's dead tonight, stay home" doesn't suggest a clockwork-type occupation.

So who knows what AK was thinking the first time she was asked when they had dinner? Then she was told she was wrong and began to guess a time that would satisfy LE. Obviously, she was way too accommodating to her interrogators.

She should have demanded a lawyer. Lesson for us all, I think.

Exactly. And it still gets me angry that when she asked if she should have a lawyer present, they told her it would definitely make things worse for her. :furious:

 

[Nova]

Exactly. And it still gets me angry that when she asked if she should have a lawyer present, they told her it would definitely make things worse for her. :furious:

I'm sure that's a standard response from LE (even in the U.S. where it's supposed to be unconstitutional to say it).

But I don't understand why it's so difficult for some to believe that AK, in a foreign country at age 20, may have actually believed ILE when they said it.

 

[SMK]

I'm sure that's a standard response from LE (even in the U.S. where it's supposed to be unconstitutional to say it).

But I don't understand why it's so difficult for some to believe that AK, in a foreign country at age 20, may have actually believed ILE when they said it.

I must be very naive, as I was shocked that they said this to her. I really believed that those who represent the law must tell the truth. Or I thought Italy must have some parallel to the Miranda .

 

[flourish]

And again have been denied this request which they probably knew before they requested it. RS defense team knew about this 'evidence' a long time ago. Why they asked for testing on the very last day of the first trial and not before? IMO they knew there is a good chance of a rejection of the request by waiting so long, and that is exactly what happened. There is a defense strategy behind it what the links I provided show.

Reporters might as well call it 'saliva' or 'make up' stains. That they call it 'semen' says something about those reporters. What the stains really were we probably never find out. IMO.

So was this stain actually tested ever for anything ever????
Do we actually know that this stain was semen?
The more I think I know...the more confused I get...

 

[flourish]

True, BUT.....in jurisprudence, reasonable doubt is supposed to be an objective, and not a subjective, standard.

Do they define "reasonable" for jurors, then, so they know the objective perspective to take? I've been called twice for jury duty, but never actually have gotten to serve

 

[OldSteve]

In my (not as limited as I'd like to claim) experience of being drunk and/or stoned, memories tend to return in bits and pieces during the following day.

So is it possible AK and/or RS remembered enough to think they were responsible even when they weren't? I suppose so.

I still tend to think one or the other would have said as much when s/he "buckled" during interrogation, however, but maybe not.

Thanks for your thoughts! Curious if you think they could have been so stoned and out-of-it that they were there while it happened but simply did nothing - in other words the drugs made it appear to them it was a dream... then the next morning they realized it wasn't a dream and so they did the cover-up.
By the time they could admit to this, it was too late, they were already accused...

So what I'm getting at is all about the cover up.... I feel either AK/RS did the cover-up, or RG may have done it if he figured people knew he was present that night and wanted to make it appear someone else did it.

 

[SMK]

Do they define "reasonable" for jurors, then, so they know the objective perspective to take? I've been called twice for jury duty, but never actually have gotten to serve

Actually, I do recall once seeing a judge defining 'reasonable doubt' for jurors. I cannot remember if it was on Court TV or what, but I recall him saying something to the effect of "reasonable doubt does not mean any existing doubt, but a doubt which makes it unreasonable to convict"---as I said, this is transposed, but I do recall it clearly. I am sure we can look up legal meaning of reasonable doubt. I will do so in a minute.

 

[SMK]

REASONABLE DOUBT
The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. A real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty.http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q016.htm

 

[OldSteve]

REASONABLE DOUBT
The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. A real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty.http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q016.htm

Thanks for the definition! Wow! now how do we define:
"level of certainty"
"common sense"
etc., etc.,

 

[SMK]

Thanks for the definition! Wow! now how do we define:
"level of certainty"
"common sense"
etc., etc.,

:crazy::waitasec:

 

[claudicici]

Could AK and RS been so stoned that they had no idea of what happened to MK the night before, and upon seeing MK murdered in her room that morning thought that they might have been involved, but just could not remember, and so they closed and locked MK's door, and staged the break-in.

ETA: Maybe so stoned they actually saw what happened and did nothing... and this they remembered the next morning.

When all is said and done, this is my best theory...

yes,yes,yes...that's my theory as well

 

[SMK]

yes,yes,yes...that's my theory as well

Well, it is possible. I do recall a case in Florida where some kids attacked a friend, and the ones who witnessed it were arrested, even though they had not actually participated. This would have to be a case where AK and RS heard Rudy and Meredith struggling, but did nothing, and later saw the result. But this then means that they were all 3 there at the cottage when Meredith came home, and then the other questions arise....more confusion....

 

[claudicici]

‘And so I’m at the police station now, after a long day spent telling how I was the first person to arrive at the house and to find my flatmate dead. The strange thing is that all I want to do now is write a song about this. It would be the first song that I’ve written and it would be about someone who died in a horrible way for no reason. How morbid is that? I’m starving. And I’d really like to say that I could kill for a pizza but it just doesn’t seem right. Laura and Filomena are pretty shocked. Raffaele too. I’m angry. At the start I was scared, then sad, then confused then really ****ed off and now…I don’t know. I can’t concentrate. I didn’t see her body and I didn’t see her blood and so it almost seems like it didn’t happen. But it happened, in the room right next to mine. The blood was in the bathroom I used to have a shower today. The front door was open because of the wind and now I haven’t got a house and am without a person that was part of my life and I don’t know what to do or think.’

http://tinyurl.com/6btdma

I'm starting to think different about my "dislike" of AK.I truly think something is "off" in the way she reacts to things,her social interactions,the inappropriate smiles,the "flat" effect towards others emotions ,her not calling the police and not even telling RS the strange things she saw until after cleaning the spill?....I wonder if it could be Asperger's? This has nothing to do with guilt but I wonder if they did a psych evaluation on her?

 

[SMK]

‘And so I’m at the police station now, after a long day spent telling how I was the first person to arrive at the house and to find my flatmate dead. The strange thing is that all I want to do now is write a song about this. It would be the first song that I’ve written and it would be about someone who died in a horrible way for no reason. How morbid is that? I’m starving. And I’d really like to say that I could kill for a pizza but it just doesn’t seem right. Laura and Filomena are pretty shocked. Raffaele too. I’m angry. At the start I was scared, then sad, then confused then really ****ed off and now…I don’t know. I can’t concentrate. I didn’t see her body and I didn’t see her blood and so it almost seems like it didn’t happen. But it happened, in the room right next to mine. The blood was in the bathroom I used to have a shower today. The front door was open because of the wind and now I haven’t got a house and am without a person that was part of my life and I don’t know what to do or think.’

http://tinyurl.com/6btdma

I'm starting to think different about my "dislike" of AK.I truly think something is "off" in the way she reacts to things,her social interactions,the inappropriate smiles,the "flat" effect towards others emotions ,her not calling the police and not even telling RS the strange things she saw until after cleaning the spill?....I wonder if it could be Asperger's? This has nothing to do with guilt but I wonder if they did a psych evaluation on her?

Yes, there is something off about her. If she were not as pretty as she is, I think more people would be put off by her. There is something quasi-autistic about some of her responses to things. To some people, this points to guilt. To others, like myself, it may have made her an easy target for an investigation.

 

[SMK]

‘And so I’m at the police station now, after a long day spent telling how I was the first person to arrive at the house and to find my flatmate dead. The strange thing is that all I want to do now is write a song about this. It would be the first song that I’ve written and it would be about someone who died in a horrible way for no reason. How morbid is that? I’m starving. And I’d really like to say that I could kill for a pizza but it just doesn’t seem right. Laura and Filomena are pretty shocked. Raffaele too. I’m angry. At the start I was scared, then sad, then confused then really ****ed off and now…I don’t know. I can’t concentrate. I didn’t see her body and I didn’t see her blood and so it almost seems like it didn’t happen. But it happened, in the room right next to mine. The blood was in the bathroom I used to have a shower today. The front door was open because of the wind and now I haven’t got a house and am without a person that was part of my life and I don’t know what to do or think.’

http://tinyurl.com/6btdma

I'm starting to think different about my "dislike" of AK.I truly think something is "off" in the way she reacts to things,her social interactions,the inappropriate smiles,the "flat" effect towards others emotions ,her not calling the police and not even telling RS the strange things she saw until after cleaning the spill?....I wonder if it could be Asperger's? This has nothing to do with guilt but I wonder if they did a psych evaluation on her?

Actually, looking at the above again, it reminds me of something one would write in a high school creative writing class, in an attempt to sound sardonic and witty. I think maybe Amanda used her scholastic leanings as a facade of strength, and maybe this identity backfired on her with ILE. :waitasec: yes, she seems a bit Aspberger, and they are often woefully misunderstood (my son has Aspberger Syndrome )

 

[SMK]

Doctors are 'failing to spot Asperger's in girls'
It is a condition on the autistic spectrum that has long been known to affect boys, who may have obsessive interests or struggle to make friends. Now an expert says many more girls have it than was thought, and failure to diagnose them can lead to misery and self-harm. Amelia Hill reportshttp://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/apr/12/autism-aspergers-girls