Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[SMK]

:blushing:Thank you,I'm hoping to find time to read the other one today.Also Otto talked about one she wrote in prison under a different name,I can't find that one ...where is Otto anyways?

I hope you find it....I am missing Otto, too

 

[sherlockh]

:blushing:Thank you,I'm hoping to find time to read the other one today.Also Otto talked about one she wrote in prison under a different name,I can't find that one ...where is Otto anyways?

Taking it easy I suppose?

Here it is:
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=180&start=5750
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ition-with-story-about-violent-sex-party.html

 

[Allusonz]

Thought some of you would find this to be very interesting. I am trying to figure out how 1 person took on 5 of ILE finest. It does gives us additional insight into how they do operate regarding Frank from Perugia Shock

"The harassment reached its peak on September 28, 2010, when five officers of Squadra Mobile forcibly entered Sfarzo's apartment. They did not produce a warrant or show their badges, Sfarzo told CPJ. Four of the five shoved Sfarzo to the ground, struck him, handcuffed him, and climbed on top of him, crushing his air supply, he told CPJ. They stopped when a neighbor, disturbed by the commotion, showed up, Sfarzo said"

"Next, the officers took Sfarzo to the Perugia city hospital, where they claimed he had attacked them; they persuaded a doctor to issue a medical report for the injuries Sfarzo was alleged to have caused In addition, the Squadra Mobile officers brought Sfarzo before a psychiatrist, demanding that she issue him a certificate of insanity"

http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalists-threatened-for-reporting-on-murder-cas.php

 

[ChasingMoxie]

Knew I had seen this could not remember where but I truly must thank Rose for the documents she has posted in English

ILE did not list this computer activity in the list it had given to the defense as it had accessed this particular file on the 6th of Novemeber. RS's defense have this in their appeal. I guess ILE FORGOT this again

This file was actually accessed not at 9:10pm but at 9:26pm according to his appeal

5. No mention of a media file att CALLS Opening Naruto
episode 101 "on Thursday, 1 November 2007 at 21:26.
Obviously, that method, if a file is not found during
initial selection (ie if three dates are not in the interest period), it
is excluded from the search results later restricted, even if he has a
the other two dates during the period of interest.
30
Following further investigation made by defense counsel,
after the definition of first instance, using for the first
Once a system and built the same version as the one used by Raffaele
Dunning, ie Mac OS X 10.4.10 (Build 8R2232), it was possible to obtain
correct data display key information acquiring
importance for the decision.
Like to point out, in fact, that the judgment placed at 21:10:32
the last operation performed by Raffaele Sollecito in the day of 1
November 2007.
Indeed, searching with Spotlight in version 10.4.10 was
detected at least one file "Naruto ep 101.avi" which is not present in
advice of the police post, but whose date of last opening is Thursday
1 November 2007 at 21:26 (ie in the period examined by the police
Postal: 1st November 2007 18:00 - November 2, 2007 8:00 am).
The date of their last (Tuesday, 6 November 2007 at 10:18:38) and last
editing this file (Tuesday, 6 November 2007 at 13:28:09) corresponds to a
period coinciding with the removal of the laptop from the home of Raffaele
Dunning, during which activities are detected on that laptop
witnessed by the file system logs.
In light of the circumstances, it requires further investigation
computer Raffaele Sollecito to ascertain interactions
actually occurred on his computer, between 1 and 2 November 2007, under
Article. 603, first paragraph, cpp

It sounds to me like you're saying here that ILE (or representatives thereof) accessed files on the computer on the 6th. Is this what you're saying?

I must be mistaken, even the daftest of investigators surely knows that this is gross incompetence, violating even the very minimum expected forensic practices. Of course, we already know that's the case, I guess, if they managed to destroy 75% of the hard drive evidence. Does anyone ever call them out on this? How did they destroy them, anyway? It's not like blood DNA, it doesn't get "used up" over time.

 

[Allusonz]

It sounds to me like you're saying here that ILE (or representatives thereof) accessed files on the computer on the 6th. Is this what you're saying?

I must be mistaken, even the daftest of investigators surely knows that this is gross incompetence, violating even the very minimum expected forensic practices. Of course, we already know that's the case, I guess, if they managed to destroy 75% of the hard drive evidence. Does anyone ever call them out on this? How did they destroy them, anyway? It's not like blood DNA, it doesn't get "used up" over time.

Yes. First off this file was never listed/disclosed to the defense in their report

When the defense reviewed it it had been accessed at 9:26pm on the 1st of Novemeber but as well by ILE on the 6th of November (or representatives as we know RS had been detained by then)

ETA What I don't know is which of the 2 computers did AK and RS use that night. Did they use both or all 3 if you include hers?

If you read the bit above regarding Frank I think you get a pretty good picture of what happens when you try to point this out whether you are an individual or a reporter. That site is complaints only for reporters

This is simply withholding/tampering with evidence which you simply cannot do

 

[ChasingMoxie]

Yes. First off this file was never listed/disclosed to the defense in their report

When the defense reviewed it it had been accessed at 9:26pm on the 1st of Novemeber but as well by ILE on the 6th of November (or representatives as we know RS had been detained by then)

ETA What I don't know is which of the 2 computers did AK and RS use that night. Did they use both or all 3 if you include hers?

If you read the bit above regarding Frank I think you get a pretty good picture of what happens when you try to point this out whether you are an individual or a reporter. That site is complaints only for reporters

This is simply withholding/tampering with evidence which you simply cannot do

This is withholding and tampering with evidence. People should lose their jobs over this. They won't, though, because apparently that isn't how it works in Perugia.

I'm really at the end of my rope, here. Perugia ILE aren't after justice, they're on a witch hunt - and they're apparently willing to break the law to get what they want. (Assuming withholding/tampering with evidence is, in fact, illegal in Perugia; nothing would surprise me at this point.)

For those who are unfamiliar, forensic practice when investigating ANY computer is NOT TO DO ANYTHING. Seriously. Immediately unplug the machine, don't even "shutdown" through the menu, just unplug it from the wall. After this, the hard drive is removed and a digital "image" is made from the drive in a passive state. Commonly this is done using a program called "EnCase" - although there are other brands and even free open source programs available to accomplish the same thing. All investigation of the computer happens on the "image" of the drive, NOT ON THE ACTUAL DRIVE - this is necessary (due to the nature of how computer memory works) to avoid interfering with the evidence. Not doing it this way GUARANTEES that current state information will be overwritten by the investigators. It's unheard of. Even in small corporate employment termination cases, this is how it's done, let alone a high-profile murder investigation! Why are these failures to follow standard procedure allowed to occur in Perugia?!

 

[Allusonz]

This is withholding and tampering with evidence. People should lose their jobs over this. They won't, though, because apparently that isn't how it works in Perugia.

I'm really at the end of my rope, here. Perugia ILE aren't after justice, they're on a witch hunt - and they're apparently willing to break the law to get what they want. (Assuming withholding/tampering with evidence is, in fact, illegal in Perugia; nothing would surprise me at this point.)

For those who are unfamiliar, forensic practice when investigating ANY computer is NOT TO DO ANYTHING. Seriously. Immediately unplug the machine, don't even "shutdown" through the menu, just unplug it from the wall. After this, the hard drive is removed and a digital "image" is made from the drive in a passive state. Commonly this is done using a program called "EnCase" - although there are other brands and even free open source programs available to accomplish the same thing. All investigation of the computer happens on the "image" of the drive, NOT ON THE ACTUAL DRIVE - this is necessary (due to the nature of how computer memory works) to avoid interfering with the evidence. Not doing it this way GUARANTEES that current state information will be overwritten by the investigators. It's unheard of. Even in small corporate employment termination cases, this is how it's done, let alone a high-profile murder investigation! Why are these failures to follow standard procedure allowed to occur in Perugia?!

Exactly!!! You never work with the original it is ALWAYS the IMAGE copy!!! We know they fried 3 of the 4. What we don't know is which ones they did indeed destroy and whether this particualar Mac is one they were able to recover info from or the other

Something seriously has to be done with this ILE, prosecutor, judges as this cannot continue to happen. The more I read the angrier I become.

Yet AK is MOCKED after hours of interrogation (please dont cite this 2 hour stuff to me, I dont buy it, I will never buy it, thus dont try and sell it to me) and was treated with the "greatest respect" if I am to believe all that is posted here

I am cranky time for me to get off :giggle:

 

[Nova]

She is a 20 year old young woman, not some 80 year old grandmother.
Her memory should presumably be good enough to remember what she did a few days ago. Of course who knows what pot use might have done to her memory, but who exactly is to blame for that?

We don't convict people of murder just because they took a drug and forgot when they ate dinner.

 

[Nova]

I never suggested you were a 80 year old grandmother. It's a well known fact memory generally gets worse with age. AK, as a young woman, should presumably have a good enough memory to remember what she did a few days ago. Regarding pot, unless she was a very heavy user, it shouldn't have had a really detrimental effect on her memory.

Except that if she wasn't looking at a clock, she probably didn't know when they ate. Once she got the text message saying not to come to work, AK had no further reason to check the time, as far as we know.

 

[Nova]

Well, not to mention there were clocks on at least their cell phones and the laptop and, IMO, as students, are in the habit of checking clocks regularly....

Really? I taught college students for years and it was not my impression that they were overly time conscious. In fact, my department instituted rather draconian punishments for tardiness and absence precisely because students were so careless about time.

Given the hundreds of emails I received at 4 and 5 a.m., I'd say they were especially oblivious at night.

 

[Nova]

She did remember what she did.Just not the exact times. Her story of watching a movie, dinner, and having sex with Raf remained the same for four straight days of questioning until on November 5th ILE convinced her that her memory was wrong and that she had been at the cottage that night. The next day she went back to claiming the same sequence of events she'd stated all along.

But on the subject of youth and memory... I'm 32 now, and when I was a 15 year old freshman in high school I was at a boarding school and had an incident occur where I was accused of stealing soda cans from another student's room. There had been some sort of social where the sodas were free to take and in abundance, and in that setting sodas were like cigarettes in a prison to us. This one guy went and grabbed some 30 cans for himself and stashed them in the bottom drawer of his dresser and had shown off the stash to a few of us. What I remember is that at some point the next day I went in his room which was open and showed another student the stash, just as a gesture of like "check this out!" and that was it I thought. But apparently someone soon after stole all of them from his room and I became the prime suspect. I had to stand up for myself, swearing on everything that I hadn't taken the darn soda cans from his room. To my shock, the other guy I'd shown the stash to told him right in front of me that he'd seen me take them! I was in disbelief. I knew I had stolen nothing but there was now apparently this eyewitness who'd seen me take the cans. I spent days trying to convince this guy, who now hated my guts, that I would never steal from anyone. But it looked bad that I'd taken the liberty of going into his room uninvited when he wasn't there. I couldn't really explain my bad decision. But I tell you, as time went by I started replaying the situation in my mind and actually started to wonder if I had taken the cans but forgot about it. To this day my memory is so fuzzy of it that I don't remember for certain what I did. Maybe I took one can and that's what the guy saw. Maybe I took a few. I really don't think I took anything, but it's bothered me to this day, and I hate that I can't 100 % trust my memory of what I actually did. I will say, when you have multiple people telling you know you did something when you swear you don't remember doing it, it really wears on you and causes you to second guess yourself.

Great example! Thank you. And in AK's case, add to it all that ILE is telling her they have scientific "proof" of whatever it is they are trying to get her to say.

It was a stupid decision to "buckle", but if AK believed ILE had proof of PL's involvement, then what she was saying didn't--in her mind--do any real harm. After all, she didn't think she was confessing to any wrongdoing herself. (Before we all start, I'm not saying this makes AK's false statement okay. I'm just saying we can understand why she made it.)

 

[flourish]

Really? I taught college students for years and it was not my impression that they were overly time conscious. In fact, my department instituted rather draconian punishments for tardiness and absence precisely because students were so careless about time.

Given the hundreds of emails I received at 4 and 5 a.m., I'd say they were especially oblivious at night.

I guess I just figure that since they are staring at cell phones and computer screens all freaking day long, both of which have clocks on them, that they notice the time. I suppose this is a difference of opinion, as in my ridiculously long university student career, I saw all sorts of watches being worn and looked at, and wall clocks being glanced at, and cell phones being looked at, etc. I've sent profs emails at crazy times of the night, not because I was oblivious of the time or even thought the prof would read said email until later, but sent it because that was when I was working on whatever project and had a question about it.... ??

Again, though, considering we've pretty much established that "common" or "usual" responses don't really compare in this case, this is probably yet another moot point....which doesn't mean we won't argue it and argue it and argue it, LOL :deadhorse:

 

[flourish]

I agree benzo,alcohol,grass combo would definetely do it....however isn't it true the THC content in hash is 8 times more than in grass? And they smoked lots of it,out of a pipe ,it was not diludet with tabac or anything and I can imagine they drank some wine as well? After thinking about it ,I can imagine that would cause some memory loss.maybe also some hallucinations or if AK saw the dead body she may have perceived it as having to be a hallucination,if she also has some mild form of autism,like Asperger's(which I now suspect) I can see her covering the body and locking the door and not mentioning it until later.
I still believe RG staged the break in.

Did you check out my earlier post re: Asperger's? What characteristics do you see in AK that would fit with Asperger's? I'm not saying there's no way, but...well, I said it all in that earlier post. I'm not trying to be challenging or snotty to you here, I am genuinely wondering what leads you in that direction TIA

 

[Nova]

It does not even have to be poor memory. Some people remember certain things better than other things. I will hear a phone number once and it is very rare I will forget it. Give me an address and I am toast. As well I take many scenic detours my story sticking to it

For 45 years, I felt great guilt for failing to save my sister from an ocelot that got loose and menaced the playground at the daycare center where we spent the summer. My sister wasn't injured, but she was 3 and I was 11; and though I had grabbed my little brother and brought him inside, I felt that somehow I should have been the one to save them both.

I've told this story to numerous people over the years, just as an example of how irrational guilt can be. I even tried apologizing to my sister (who thought I'd lost my mind), hoping that would relieve the feelings I still had. The only adults present were the daycare owners and I haven't seen them since that summer.

The memory of that day remains as vivid as watching a movie, but while thinking about it last year, I suddenly realized the memory stops abruptly with the image of the cat on a fence above my little sister; I should be able to recall someone rescuing her or removing the cat. It also occurred to me that there is no way my strong-willed grandmother would have let us return to the daycare center if one of their cats (they did have ocelots in cages in a separate part of the property) ever got to the children.

And then I realized it was all just a dream I had--and the memory ends abruptly because I scared myself and woke up.

Now granted, this isn't analogous to AK's situation. I was only 11, but I managed to create a false memory all on my own, without any accusations from authority figures.

Malkmus' example is more apt. I'm adding my experience just to say that memories are funny--and often unreliable--things. Sending anyone to prison based on a statement given under pressure or because she misremembers the time she ate dinner should require a lot of forensic corroboration.

 

[Nova]

I guess I just figure that since they are staring at cell phones and computer screens all freaking day long, both of which have clocks on them, that they notice the time. I suppose this is a difference of opinion, as in my ridiculously long university student career, I saw all sorts of watches being worn and looked at, and wall clocks being glanced at, and cell phones being looked at, etc. I've sent profs emails at crazy times of the night, not because I was oblivious of the time or even thought the prof would read said email until later, but sent it because that was when I was working on whatever project and had a question about it.... ??

Again, though, considering we've pretty much established that "common" or "usual" responses don't really compare in this case, this is probably yet another moot point....which doesn't mean we won't argue it and argue it and argue it, LOL :deadhorse:

I agree we don't need to argue this further. You may well be right. I retired from teaching six years ago and cell phones, etc., have become far more common since then.

To me, the most salient point is that AK had no particular need to keep track of time once she learned she wasn't expected at work. But that doesn't prove she didn't look at a clock out of habit. :truce:

 

[claudicici]

Did you check out my earlier post re: Asperger's? What characteristics do you see in AK that would fit with Asperger's? I'm not saying there's no way, but...well, I said it all in that earlier post. I'm not trying to be challenging or snotty to you here, I am genuinely wondering what leads you in that direction TIA

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002516/


"People with this syndrome have difficulty interacting socially, repeat behaviors, and often are clumsy."
" There is no delay in their cognitive development, ability to take care of themselves, or curiosity about their environment."
"Their body language may be off."
"They have problems with eye contact, facial expressions, body postures, or gestures (nonverbal communication)."
"Are unable to respond emotionally in normal social interactions"

 

[SMK]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002516/


"People with this syndrome have difficulty interacting socially, repeat behaviors, and often are clumsy."
" There is no delay in their cognitive development, ability to take care of themselves, or curiosity about their environment."
"Their body language may be off."
"They have problems with eye contact, facial expressions, body postures, or gestures (nonverbal communication)."
"Are unable to respond emotionally in normal social interactions"

Right, and I had posted a link to an article last night that said it is often undiagnosed in girls (i.e., doctors may miss symptoms in girls, as they are more pronounced in boys)

 

[wasnt_me]

IIRC the landlord did confirm it

thanks.

I saw someone had posted something about how there were pictures of it. So I don't get why that's not good evidence? I guess because they could have left because they thought going over to the cottage on the spur of the moment, since AK wasn't working that night, was more important than the spill?

 

[wasnt_me]

I finally found AK's short story on her myspace blog
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39
It's almost at the end.
It's hardly a story that would make one think this girl has a hidden,secret,sadistic streak and would find pleasure in seeing someone getting hurt.
The rape is only mentioned to illustrate the bad character of the brother,the one that is supposed to take care and protect the main character of the story.
It's really about a story how you can not trust people to be there for you and they may be "not the way they're supposed to be"
What I found most interesting about it is this part :
Sandra waited, watching him pick at the thin scabs on his wrists that were nothing compared to the wounds under his arms. She wanted to ask who had hurt him, which kid, so she could actually do something to help. She at least had authority over her third graders. But she was silent, waiting like she did when she asked a student to read for her, waiting for them to figure it out. Children were impressionable, often out of laziness, and would take any answer given to them when they could. She didn't want to put any names into Edgar's mouth for him.

So in 2006 when she wrote the story,she was very aware that you could be coerced into naming someone who is not guilty because "children are impressionable"
She blames this on being young,impressionable and laziness.
She pretty much gives an explanation about what happened to her during the interrogation.Did the interrogation somehow trigger something that happened in AK's childhood?Did she name a wrong name before because she was "impressionable" and it was just way easier to go with what was suggested instead of making sense of something by yourself? Was she looking for the teacher,for someone to "take charge" of her thoughts,so she would not have to deal with it on her own?

To be clear, this was written a year before the murder happened, right?

 

[wasnt_me]

Right, but he should be seeking the truth, guess that sounds too idealistic, but it sickens me that all of this is just careerism and supporting one's own ambitions...

I believe in open conspiracies, where is no pretense to keep it secret what you're doing. ILE hasn't kept it a secret, as they've said they knew she was guilty before gathering evidence, and they apparently, according to reports, didn't even debate innocence, just a sentence length.