Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[wasnt_me]

Except that if she wasn't looking at a clock, she probably didn't know when they ate. Once she got the text message saying not to come to work, AK had no further reason to check the time, as far as we know.

Well, except for needing the clock to guess at when she MIGHT encounter RG for a sexual mission that none of them knew anything about because they'd never talked on the phone before, and she had apparently set up, despite the fact that she was scheduled to work.

(joking)

 

[wasnt_me]

Really? I taught college students for years and it was not my impression that they were overly time conscious. In fact, my department instituted rather draconian punishments for tardiness and absence precisely because students were so careless about time.

Given the hundreds of emails I received at 4 and 5 a.m., I'd say they were especially oblivious at night.

this is very true. When I was younger, I'd call somebody at 1am in a heartbeat and THEN check the time if they act groggy when they answer.

Now, I hesitate to call people after 10pm. Small example, but you know what I mean? I even rethink texting at that time, because I realize people's phones make noise when it happens.

 

[wasnt_me]

For 45 years, I felt great guilt for failing to save my sister from an ocelot that got loose and menaced the playground at the daycare center where we spent the summer. My sister wasn't injured, but she was 3 and I was 11; and though I had grabbed my little brother and brought him inside, I felt that somehow I should have been the one to save them both.

I've told this story to numerous people over the years, just as an example of how irrational guilt can be. I even tried apologizing to my sister (who thought I'd lost my mind), hoping that would relieve the feelings I still had. The only adults present were the daycare owners and I haven't seen them since that summer.

The memory of that day remains as vivid as watching a movie, but while thinking about it last year, I suddenly realized the memory stops abruptly with the image of the cat on a fence above my little sister; I should be able to recall someone rescuing her or removing the cat. It also occurred to me that there is no way my strong-willed grandmother would have let us return to the daycare center if one of their cats (they did have ocelots in cages in a separate part of the property) ever got to the children.

And then I realized it was all just a dream I had--and the memory ends abruptly because I scared myself and woke up.

Now granted, this isn't analogous to AK's situation. I was only 11, but I managed to create a false memory all on my own, without any accusations from authority figures.

Malkmus' example is more apt. I'm adding my experience just to say that memories are funny--and often unreliable--things. Sending anyone to prison based on a statement given under pressure or because she misremembers the time she ate dinner should require a lot of forensic corroboration.

Seriously? So there was never an attack at all? That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[wasnt_me]

I agree we don't need to argue this further. You may well be right. I retired from teaching six years ago and cell phones, etc., have become far more common since then.

To me, the most salient point is that AK had no particular need to keep track of time once she learned she wasn't expected at work. But that doesn't prove she didn't look at a clock out of habit. :truce:

She didn't look at the clock out of habit. She states that she did not in her testimony.

GCM: What time was this?

LG: In via della Pergola?

GCM: But at what time?

AK: Let's see, it must have been around midday when she came out of her room,
I think, but I don't look at the clock much. Anyway early afternoon.

And then:

GCM: Can you say what time this was?

AK: Um, around, um, we ate around 9:30 or 10, and then after we had eaten and
he was washing the dishes, well, as I said, I don't look at the clock much, but
it was around 10. And...he...umm...well, he was washing the dishes and, umm,
the water was coming out and he was very "bummed" [English], displeased, he
told me he had just had that thing repaired. He was annoyed that it had broken
again. So, umm...


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

IF you want to find this quote on this link quickly, then start at the top of the page, click "edit" then "Find on this page" then type in "clock."

 

[wasnt_me]

Looking at AK's testimony, she MIGHT have meant the bidet or gotten it wrong herself, but look at how she explains what toilet the poo was in:

Then I went into the other bathroom to dry my hair, because there was no hair
dryer in my bathroom. So I went there, I took the hair dryer, I was drying my
hair, and then when I put the hair dryer back, I saw that in the toilet,
which was that kind of toilet that isn't really flat, it's like this, kind
of ew, that there were faeces on that upper part, and that for me was the
strangest thing of all. In fact [swallowing], of all the things I saw, in the
bathroom of Laura and Filomena who are very clean people, for me it was strange,
and I thought, "What? What could this be?" Okay, so I didn't know what to
think, but it was strange. Then I took this mop that was near my room that was
in a closet thing near my room, and I went to Raffaele's house, locking the door
behind me, because all the time I was doing these things, nobody had come back
to the house.

Same link as the other link I used to post her other testimony.

Any guesses as to if she trying trying to describe the bidet? I take for granted that she KNOWS what a regular toilet is, hence there wouldn't be a need to say more than toilet, right?

Here, I'd like to clarify that per her testimony, she did not leave the door wide open when she took a shower. She closed it, but didn't lock it in case another roommate had only gone outside for a brief time.

 

[wasnt_me]

So um, I thought, strange, okay, let's see what Raffaele says,
because I didn't know what to think, and so I wanted to talk it over with him.
When I got back to his house, I...he was in the bathroom, and I started to clean
up the floor in the kitchen, but it was by now almost dry, just a bit of water
left because it had evaporated. Then he came out and we made breakfast, and
while we were preparing it and drinking coffee, I explained to him what I had
seen, and I asked him for advice, because when I went into my house, everything
seemed in order, only there were these little weird things, and I couldn't
figure out how to understand them.

LG: How worried were you?

AK: Excuse me?

LG: How worried were you when you left your house?

AK: Well, I had this strange sensation like, "What?" and it was a bit
like that, I didn't know how to explain it in my mind. That's why I wanted
to ask Raffaele. So he suggested I ask my roommates. So first I called
Meredith, who didn't answer, and then I think I called Filomena, and she
explained to me that Laura was in Rome, and that I should call back Meredith
and then return to the house to see if there was anything stolen. I told her,
look, everything seemed to be there, not as if someone entered and took
things away, because my computer was still in my room, I saw that the television
was still in the living room. For me, I hadn't even thought that there was
a robbery. I thought maybe someone went in and out really quickly, because
if someone leaves faeces in the toilet, maybe something had happened and they
had had to leave really really fast. Maybe. So Raffaele and I went out and went
to my house to look around and see how things were. This time we opened the
doors, for example the door to Filomena's room, and I saw that her window was
broken and there was a big mess. That's when I thought, oh gosh, it was a
robbery. And I was running around everywhere.

Same link.

Sounds to me like she wasn't alarmed yet that anything was wrong and she figured it was very weird, so she'd mention it to RS to see what he thought about it. I'm guessing her mind, she'd come to reasonable explanations for all she'd seen:

1. Door's open. A roommate must be nearby
2. A little blood on the sink. Is it mine from my ears? she checks and it's not. She's not sure what to think about that, so she moves onto her shower. It's not like it's a ton of blood, so she's not alarmed.
3. There are no towels, (because apparently RG had taken them into MK's room.) which happened to me when my BF would wash the towels and not put new ones in the bathroom. Nothing alarming here, if that's what she thought MK did. So she decides to use the bathmat to shield herself in case a roommate does return through the front door. She sees MORE blood on it. That becomes weird, but explaining it away to herself as period blood, she probably attributes a bad period mess to that blood AND the blood in the sink. Still no real reason to be alarmed because everything in the house seemed in order, but for the rooms with the closed doors, which she had no reason to just open them.
4. Poo in the toilet, or bidet, completely creeps her out, so she's starting to wonder if this is too weird or what. She leaves with the mop, and when she gets to RS's, starts cleaning up till he gets out the bathroom. over breakfast, she's like, you know what, some weird stuff was at my house. I think it might be period blood, but what do you think? Then there's this crap in the toilet. That's not like LM and FR, what do you think? THEN the door was wide open to boot. That's when RS was probably like, "call your roommates and see if one of them was around the property." Possibly thinking one of them had been there and had been outside or something and could readily explain.
5. FR might be more sensible, for she's the one who said call MK back because i know I wasn't there. LM couldn't have been there, because she's away, and you need to go back and make sure nothing was stolen.

So this is probably when it starts to get scary.

My question is first, why tell this story if it's staged and two why would FR's door be closed unless the assailant did it to delay discovery of a breakin. I know it doesn't delay it long, but apparently it delayed it some, since it took AK's trip back with RS to discover the breakin. If AK hadn't found the door, the small amounts of blood and the crap in the toilet, she might not have mentioned anything to RS and they might have just gone on their trip, which would have delayed discovery even longer, giving the assailant even more time to get far away, like to Germany.

If a staged person did it, why not leave it wide open for the first person home to see immediately? IF FR's door had stayed closed, then the longer it'd take to realize the problem. Why wasn't FR's door locked? Because RG had no key to that one. I guess he would have locked it, too, if he could have. But I'm sure he closed FR's door because that's how he'd found it. I even think he found it locked but unlocked it from the inside. But he could not lock it back without a key. That's probably why he locked MK's door, too. Because if he'd HAD found FR's door locked, maybe he thought that's how the girls did it when they were gone. I don't know. I'm guessing on the door. Completely guessing.

And if AK and Rs staged it, why not tell the cops that they JUST got to the house and found it like that? No need to tell this elaborate lie about slowly discovering things are amiss. They weren't "caught" doing anything but standing outside the property, so it's not like they were caught in the act of staging or anything of the sort. It'd be reasonable to say "We just got here ourselves and were trying to figure out what happened when you arrived."

See what I'm saying?

I guess others are saying AK wanted FR to discover the body first. My answer to that is, then just go on your trip. Don't even go back to the house. Do your staging the night before and then go on the trip as usual. They had all night to stage it, so I don't get the need to go to RS's and return to further stage in the morning and afternoon.

See what I'm getting at? I hope I've made it clear.

 

[SMK]

I believe in open conspiracies, where is no pretense to keep it secret what you're doing. ILE hasn't kept it a secret, as they've said they knew she was guilty before gathering evidence, and they apparently, according to reports, didn't even debate innocence, just a sentence length.

But that ain't justice, and the courts are supposed to uphold justice. :furious:

 

[SMK]

So um, I thought, strange, okay, let's see what Raffaele says,
because I didn't know what to think, and so I wanted to talk it over with him.
When I got back to his house, I...he was in the bathroom, and I started to clean
up the floor in the kitchen, but it was by now almost dry, just a bit of water
left because it had evaporated. Then he came out and we made breakfast, and
while we were preparing it and drinking coffee, I explained to him what I had
seen, and I asked him for advice, because when I went into my house, everything
seemed in order, only there were these little weird things, and I couldn't
figure out how to understand them.

LG: How worried were you?

AK: Excuse me?

LG: How worried were you when you left your house?

AK: Well, I had this strange sensation like, "What?" and it was a bit
like that, I didn't know how to explain it in my mind. That's why I wanted
to ask Raffaele. So he suggested I ask my roommates. So first I called
Meredith, who didn't answer, and then I think I called Filomena, and she
explained to me that Laura was in Rome, and that I should call back Meredith
and then return to the house to see if there was anything stolen. I told her,
look, everything seemed to be there, not as if someone entered and took
things away, because my computer was still in my room, I saw that the television
was still in the living room. For me, I hadn't even thought that there was
a robbery. I thought maybe someone went in and out really quickly, because
if someone leaves faeces in the toilet, maybe something had happened and they
had had to leave really really fast. Maybe. So Raffaele and I went out and went
to my house to look around and see how things were. This time we opened the
doors, for example the door to Filomena's room, and I saw that her window was
broken and there was a big mess. That's when I thought, oh gosh, it was a
robbery. And I was running around everywhere.

Same link.

Sounds to me like she wasn't alarmed yet that anything was wrong and she figured it was very weird, so she'd mention it to RS to see what he thought about it. I'm guessing her mind, she'd come to reasonable explanations for all she'd seen:

1. Door's open. A roommate must be nearby
2. A little blood on the sink. Is it mine from my ears? she checks and it's not. She's not sure what to think about that, so she moves onto her shower. It's not like it's a ton of blood, so she's not alarmed.
3. There are no towels, (because apparently RG had taken them into MK's room.) which happened to me when my BF would wash the towels and not put new ones in the bathroom. Nothing alarming here, if that's what she thought MK did. So she decides to use the bathmat to shield herself in case a roommate does return through the front door. She sees MORE blood on it. That becomes weird, but explaining it away to herself as period blood, she probably attributes a bad period mess to that blood AND the blood in the sink. Still no real reason to be alarmed because everything in the house seemed in order, but for the rooms with the closed doors, which she had no reason to just open them.
4. Poo in the toilet, or bidet, completely creeps her out, so she's starting to wonder if this is too weird or what. She leaves with the mop, and when she gets to RS's, starts cleaning up till he gets out the bathroom. over breakfast, she's like, you know what, some weird stuff was at my house. I think it might be period blood, but what do you think? Then there's this crap in the toilet. That's not like LM and FR, what do you think? THEN the door was wide open to boot. That's when RS was probably like, "call your roommates and see if one of them was around the property." Possibly thinking one of them had been there and had been outside or something and could readily explain.
5. FR might be more sensible, for she's the one who said call MK back because i know I wasn't there. LM couldn't have been there, because she's away, and you need to go back and make sure nothing was stolen.

So this is probably when it starts to get scary.

My question is first, why tell this story if it's staged and two why would FR's door be closed unless the assailant did it to delay discovery of a breakin. I know it doesn't delay it long, but apparently it delayed it some, since it took AK's trip back with RS to discover the breakin. If AK hadn't found the door, the small amounts of blood and the crap in the toilet, she might not have mentioned anything to RS and they might have just gone on their trip, which would have delayed discovery even longer, giving the assailant even more time to get far away, like to Germany.

If a staged person did it, why not leave it wide open for the first person home to see immediately? IF FR's door had stayed closed, then the longer it'd take to realize the problem. Why wasn't FR's door locked? Because RG had no key to that one. I guess he would have locked it, too, if he could have. But I'm sure he closed FR's door because that's how he'd found it. I even think he found it locked but unlocked it from the inside. But he could not lock it back without a key. That's probably why he locked MK's door, too. Because if he'd HAD found FR's door locked, maybe he thought that's how the girls did it when they were gone. I don't know. I'm guessing on the door. Completely guessing.

And if AK and Rs staged it, why not tell the cops that they JUST got to the house and found it like that? No need to tell this elaborate lie about slowly discovering things are amiss. They weren't "caught" doing anything but standing outside the property, so it's not like they were caught in the act of staging or anything of the sort. It'd be reasonable to say "We just got here ourselves and were trying to figure out what happened when you arrived."

See what I'm saying?

I guess others are saying AK wanted FR to discover the body first. My answer to that is, then just go on your trip. Don't even go back to the house. Do your staging the night before and then go on the trip as usual. They had all night to stage it, so I don't get the need to go to RS's and return to further stage in the morning and afternoon.

My thoughts exactly. And I have heard others refute this by saying, "Well, AK and RS wanted to be there, to be on top of things, to be in control"----I don't buy it, and we know the OPPOSITE occurred, i.e., they LOST control totally.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, I'm with you. Also, I was editing that post when you responded SMK, so there might be more stuff I asked in my edits that you can help with if you care to re-read through it for the edits. Optional, of course.

 

[jjenny]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002516/


"People with this syndrome have difficulty interacting socially, repeat behaviors, and often are clumsy."
" There is no delay in their cognitive development, ability to take care of themselves, or curiosity about their environment."
"Their body language may be off."
"They have problems with eye contact, facial expressions, body postures, or gestures (nonverbal communication)."
"Are unable to respond emotionally in normal social interactions"

I don't see how that fits her at all. We are talking about a young woman who moved to a foreign country, and within a short period of time, found roommates, a boyfriend and a job.

 

[Allusonz]

Looking at AK's testimony, she MIGHT have meant the bidet or gotten it wrong herself, but look at how she explains what toilet the poo was in:

Then I went into the other bathroom to dry my hair, because there was no hair
dryer in my bathroom. So I went there, I took the hair dryer, I was drying my
hair, and then when I put the hair dryer back, I saw that in the toilet,
which was that kind of toilet that isn't really flat, it's like this, kind
of ew, that there were faeces on that upper part, and that for me was the
strangest thing of all. In fact [swallowing], of all the things I saw, in the
bathroom of Laura and Filomena who are very clean people, for me it was strange,
and I thought, "What? What could this be?" Okay, so I didn't know what to
think, but it was strange. Then I took this mop that was near my room that was
in a closet thing near my room, and I went to Raffaele's house, locking the door
behind me, because all the time I was doing these things, nobody had come back
to the house
Same link as the other link I used to post her other testimony.

Any guesses as to if she trying trying to describe the bidet? I take for granted that she KNOWS what a regular toilet is, hence there wouldn't be a need to say more than toilet, right?

Here, I'd like to clarify that per her testimony, she did not leave the door wide open when she took a shower. She closed it, but didn't lock it in case another roommate had only gone outside for a brief time.

Just wanted to point out that she states in this testimony she did lock the door

 

[Allusonz]

I guess I just figure that since they are staring at cell phones and computer screens all freaking day long, both of which have clocks on them, that they notice the time. I suppose this is a difference of opinion, as in my ridiculously long university student career, I saw all sorts of watches being worn and looked at, and wall clocks being glanced at, and cell phones being looked at, etc. I've sent profs emails at crazy times of the night, not because I was oblivious of the time or even thought the prof would read said email until later, but sent it because that was when I was working on whatever project and had a question about it.... ??

Again, though, considering we've pretty much established that "common" or "usual" responses don't really compare in this case, this is probably yet another moot point....which doesn't mean we won't argue it and argue it and argue it, LOL :deadhorse:

This should truly amuse you then flourish

Needing to put some extra hours at the office in to finish some important reports for the government, I became so absorbed in what I was doing I wondered why it had gotten so much lighter in my office. I glanced down at my computers clock to find that it was 7:00 and trust me it was not PM it was AM. I quickly left the office went home showered, went to my moms which was my habit then to check on her and back to the office :giggle:

 

[SMK]

Yeah, I'm with you. Also, I was editing that post when you responded SMK, so there might be more stuff I asked in my edits that you can help with if you care to re-read through it for the edits. Optional, of course.

Yes, I went back and re-read it and I totally agree. Why go through this whole, complicated and convoluted story? I always DID feel that it had "the ring of truth" precisely because it is so drawn out. And yes, I agree about RG perhaps thinking the girls locked their doors. And yes, why the delay? What would be accomplished by hanging around, and having Filomina somehow get the door open? Why not leave it, go on your trip, and let all hell break loose while you are gone. It was precisely their hanging around that got them where they are today.
I am with you all the way....

 

[SMK]

I don't see how that fits her at all. We are talking about a young woman who moved to a foreign country, and within a short period of time, found roommates, a boyfriend and a job.

Yes, this is true, but there is what they call "high functioning Aspberger autism"---the person can go to college, have a career, marry, etc., but they are known as "odd", "weird" in their relating. I had a philosophy professor who had a PhD, a wife, a daughter, etc., but he could be downright bizarre in things he said, ways he responded to simple remarks, etc., and everyone noticed it. Amanda has been seen as "odd" and even offensive. Her stepfather tells the story of her jumping right into a mud puddle when the soccer coach teasingly suggested it.

 

[sherlockh]

Yes, I went back and re-read it and I totally agree. Why go through this whole, complicated and convoluted story? I always DID feel that it had "the ring of truth" precisely because it is so drawn out. And yes, I agree about RG perhaps thinking the girls locked their doors. And yes, why the delay? What would be accomplished by hanging around, and having Filomina somehow get the door open? Why not leave it, go on your trip, and let all hell break loose while you are gone. It was precisely their hanging around that got them where they are today.
I am with you all the way....

Who was going to make the discovery while they were on their trip? It was still a holiday. They waited till noon and nobody had come to the cottage. Why go on a day trip, come back and find that nobody has come home yet?

 

[Nova]

Seriously? So there was never an attack at all? That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it.

There was a separate incident where one of the ocelots got loose and came after me (the owner caught it in mid-air before I was hurt), but that was after hours during the weekly sleep-over for older kids. My siblings weren't around.

No, the dream was just a manifestation of my fears that one of the cats would get loose and I wouldn't be able to protect both my brother and sister. (Our parents were recently divorced and I felt a lot of responsibility toward my younger siblings.)

But I can remember the screams of the children and the panicked rush of a hundred kids trying to get inside a single back door just as if it had actually happened... yesterday!

 

[Allusonz]

I guess he would have locked it, too, if he could have. But I'm sure he closed FR's door because that's how he'd found it. I even think he found it locked but unlocked it from the inside. But he could not lock it back without a key. That's probably why he locked MK's door, too. Because if he'd HAD found FR's door locked, maybe he thought that's how the girls did it when they were gone. I don't know. I'm guessing on the door. Completely guessing.

And if AK and Rs staged it, why not tell the cops that they JUST got to the house and found it like that? No need to tell this elaborate lie about slowly discovering things are amiss. They weren't "caught" doing anything but standing outside the property, so it's not like they were caught in the act of staging or anything of the sort. It'd be reasonable to say "We just got here ourselves and were trying to figure out what happened when you arrived."

See what I'm saying?

I guess others are saying AK wanted FR to discover the body first. My answer to that is, then just go on your trip. Don't even go back to the house. Do your staging the night before and then go on the trip as usual. They had all night to stage it, so I don't get the need to go to RS's and return to further stage in the morning and afternoon.

See what I'm getting at? I hope I've made it clear.

Respectively Snipped and BBM

One thing that has always perplexed me is why did anyone have to close this door? We know it was very windy that evening could this door simply have slammed shut as the window was open?

 

[Allusonz]

I have to point this out again.

All I can state is I hope my life and every word stated or written is never dissected to this degree but then I do have my private asylum in the caribbean :giggle:

First off we simply do not have any medical documentation with respect to AK except for the HIV episode

Secondly, this is a LE atmosphere that seems to leak everything (yes again I know that some would love to blame it all on her family) but they do not have access to RS or RG let alone diaries or files

I watched her entire testimony on TV and sorry I simply did not see anything remotely close to these 2 things during that testimony

I would think after all this time if something was found to be wrong with her surely something would of found its' way to journalists (everything else has been why not something like her medical history)

 

[Nova]

So um, I thought, strange, okay, let's see what Raffaele says,
because I didn't know what to think, and so I wanted to talk it over with him.
When I got back to his house, I...he was in the bathroom, and I started to clean
up the floor in the kitchen....

If a staged person did it, why not leave it wide open for the first person home to see immediately?....

Crystal clear! And I for one really hadn't thought much about this before. For one thing, I didn't realize the break-in wasn't discovered until AK returned with RS. That's a lot less suspicious than the pro-guilters make the morning sound.

FWIW the bidets I've seen are fairly shallow; really rather like drinking fountains but with the water spouts in the center. I think finding feces in a bidet would definitely be a sign of something wrong.

As for the design of toilet AK mentions, I can't picture it.

Bottom line, however, the story of the first trip back to the apartment really doesn't serve any purpose (assuming AK staged the burglary). And why not leave FR's door open if you wanted to draw attention to a break in?

 

[Allusonz]

For 45 years, I felt great guilt for failing to save my sister from an ocelot that got loose and menaced the playground at the daycare center where we spent the summer. My sister wasn't injured, but she was 3 and I was 11; and though I had grabbed my little brother and brought him inside, I felt that somehow I should have been the one to save them both.

I've told this story to numerous people over the years, just as an example of how irrational guilt can be. I even tried apologizing to my sister (who thought I'd lost my mind), hoping that would relieve the feelings I still had. The only adults present were the daycare owners and I haven't seen them since that summer.

The memory of that day remains as vivid as watching a movie, but while thinking about it last year, I suddenly realized the memory stops abruptly with the image of the cat on a fence above my little sister; I should be able to recall someone rescuing her or removing the cat. It also occurred to me that there is no way my strong-willed grandmother would have let us return to the daycare center if one of their cats (they did have ocelots in cages in a separate part of the property) ever got to the children.

And then I realized it was all just a dream I had--and the memory ends abruptly because I scared myself and woke up.

Now granted, this isn't analogous to AK's situation. I was only 11, but I managed to create a false memory all on my own, without any accusations from authority figures.

Malkmus' example is more apt. I'm adding my experience just to say that memories are funny--and often unreliable--things. Sending anyone to prison based on a statement given under pressure or because she misremembers the time she ate dinner should require a lot of forensic corroboration.

Thanks for sharing. Memory is something that will be studied for years yet I wonder if it can ever be understood fully as we are all so different

Slips a designer straight jacket to Nova (I truly can't recall if I have given you one yet or not)