Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[flourish]

I know you are awaiting Flourish's reply, but I just wanted to say that from all I have read about him, Mignini is a very interesting, very driven man, who has a classical Catholic philosophy. Does not make right what he does, but I guess IMO he is more than just a boor.

b/c I'm at work then I'm going to acupuncture, my favorite place :Banane41:

Perhaps I'll log in later after that. :Banane37:

And, no, Allusonz, I haven't fallen all the way off the fence yet. :fence:

My straitjacket keeps getting caught on the top of the fence and leaving me hanging. :crazy::crazy:

Okay, back to my classroom...geez these breaks seem so short sometimes

 

[Allusonz]

b/c I'm at work then I'm going to acupuncture, my favorite place :Banane41:

Perhaps I'll log in later after that. :Banane37:

And, no, Allusonz, I haven't fallen all the way off the fence yet. :fence:

My straitjacket keeps getting caught on the top of the fence and leaving me hanging. :crazy::crazy:

Okay, back to my classroom...geez these breaks seem so short sometimes

Dang! I knew there was a use for those loose threads simply could not figure out what they were :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks. I don't know if the roommates ever visited AK, but my general sense is that LE almost immediately began a concerted effort to turn the Italian girls against their American flatmate. This may be standard police procedure when you have multiple, unrelated persons living together with a murder victim. I don't know.

But given the media accounts and testimony re minor roommate conflicts, it seems ILE was quick to exploit and inflate every hint of conflict. That alone may have turned the Italian girls against AK.

BBM

To my knowledge as well they never had any further contact. Then again they would not be able to if they were potential witnesses against her

 

[SMK]

One thing I wanted to mention from my own reflections, for whatever it is worth:
I am nearly fully convinced of Hendry's thesis of Guede as a lone-wolf burglar turned killer, and his belief that Mignini mistakenly focused on Knox and Sollecito. The ONLY problem I have , is with the duvet covering Meredith, and the locked bedroom door. Those 2 pieces of "evidence" are the sole ones which give me pause. Not that I think AK and RS were part of the crime, but as we spoke of at length in other threads, that they felt somehow culpable for Guede doing as he did. Just felt like airing this, as it is on my mind.

 

[flourish]

One thing I wanted to mention from my own reflections, for whatever it is worth:
I am nearly fully convinced of Hendry's thesis of Guede as a lone-wolf burglar turned killer, and his belief that Mignini mistakenly focused on Knox and Sollecito. The ONLY problem I have , is with the duvet covering Meredith, and the locked bedroom door. Those 2 pieces of "evidence" are the sole ones which give me pause. Not that I think AK and RS were part of the crime, but as we spoke of at length in other threads, that they felt somehow culpable for Guede doing as he did. Just felt like airing this, as it is on my mind.

So, for clarification, let's say that AK and RS were the ones who put the duvet over MK and locked the door. Would you not consider those actions to be part of the crime? Why or why not? TIA

 

[SMK]

So, for clarification, let's say that AK and RS were the ones who put the duvet over MK and locked the door. Would you not consider those actions to be part of the crime? Why or why not? TIA

I would not consider them to be part of the crime, as if the person was killed by another, covering them and locking the door has no bearing on their death. I suppose Guede could have performed those actions, but I have a hard time picturing him doing so, for some reason. I would have thought the blood soaked towels ( pointing to an attempt to stem the bleeding of the victim ) pointed away from Guede, as well----but oddly enough, he mentioned them when he was arrested, so must have been him. If he could do that, I suppose he could do the other two.....but doubts still arise.....:waitasec:

 

[flourish]

FACT: PL stated that he had switched sim cards. (which later turned out to be false) Miley said nothing more or nothing less

Right. I didn't say she said anything more or less. I said,

"So, Patrick allegedly falsely confessed to something, too...huh....perhaps Mignini was coerced, too. Perhaps we should go ahead and give him the benefit of the doubt."

My reference to Patrick "falsely confessing" was in reference to him saying he switched sim cards but didn't.

 

[flourish]

I understand... I thought I might have given the wrong idea so I wanted to clarify.


Out of curiosity though, what do you think about Mignini, do you think he's been given a raw deal?

I really don't know enough about the Mignini issues to say whether or not he's been given a raw deal. I was just pointing out that I found it interesting that PL had allegedly said he did something that he didn't do (switch sim card), and AK has allegedly said she did things that she didn't (sit in her kitchen covering her ears against MK's screams, etc.) so I was semi-facetiously suggesting that perhaps Mignini had also been coerced into saying he did something he didn't do, since that seemed to be the "trend" (people saying they did things that the didn't do).

 

[flourish]

I would not consider them to be part of the crime, as if the person was killed by another, covering them and locking the door has no bearing on their death. I suppose Guede could have performed those actions, but I have a hard time picturing him doing so, for some reason. I would have thought the blood soaked towels ( pointing to an attempt to stem the bleeding of the victim ) pointed away from Guede, as well----but oddly enough, he mentioned them when he was arrested, so must have been him. If he could do that, I suppose he could do the other two.....but doubts still arise.....:waitasec:

What about accessory after the fact...tampering with a crime scene, etc.? And that's just legal issues, I'm not even getting into the moral ramifications of that.

If someone finds a bloody person who may be dead or in the process of dying, IMHO, not seeking help for them is incredibly abhorrent and should be criminal if it already isn't.

If MK was not dead, but dying, and AK and/or RS covered her with duvet and locked her in her room, well then...IMHO that would make them culpable in her death. Absolutely.

 

[Nova]

One thing I wanted to mention from my own reflections, for whatever it is worth:
I am nearly fully convinced of Hendry's thesis of Guede as a lone-wolf burglar turned killer, and his belief that Mignini mistakenly focused on Knox and Sollecito. The ONLY problem I have , is with the duvet covering Meredith, and the locked bedroom door. Those 2 pieces of "evidence" are the sole ones which give me pause. Not that I think AK and RS were part of the crime, but as we spoke of at length in other threads, that they felt somehow culpable for Guede doing as he did. Just felt like airing this, as it is on my mind.

I see no reason why RG can't be the one who covered MK with the duvet. To my knowledge, NOBODY thinks RG is a serial killer who went to the cottage to kill somebody. So assuming he was surprised during a burglary, then he killed because he thought he had to, not because he wanted to. That's exactly a context that would produce the regret that might motivate a killer to cover his victim.

I don't believe we have ever determined whether MK's bedroom locked with a key or with a "trigger" when closed. Either way, RG had no way of knowing who else might arrive next or when they would appear. By locking MK's door, he made sure that another roommate arriving would (ETA NOT) casually glance into MK's room and discover the body.

ON THE OTHER HAND, what would make AK and RS come upon MK's butchered body and feel so responsible they cover her and lock the door but don't call the police? And let's keep in mind, they BOTH have to agree on this course of action even they've only known each other for about a week.

Did they suggest the burglary to RG? How could they? They didn't know when MK would return home and they didn't know that one of the Italian flatmates (Laura?) would be gone for the night. They had no way of knowing when the cottage would be empty.

Did they suggest that RG make a sexual play for MK? This strikes me as incredibly unlikely. I'm sure it has happened, but it really seems to go against a woman's instinct toward a girlfriend. But assuming it happened, how does that make them guilty of conspiracy to rape and murder?

And why the extensive cover-up (which, let us remember, had to be devised and carried out without the two of them sharing fluency in any one language)? Surely it would be easier to turn around, agree to swear they knew nothing (if in fact they felt guilty), and call the police.

Occam's Razor = RG covered the body and locked the door on his way out.

 

[flourish]

BBM

I would certainly love to hear the massive amounts of "lame excuses" AK has stated

Considering she has been in jail for 3 1/2 years, never spoken to the press that I am personally aware of, there was her testimony and statements as well as her very private leaked diary after being told she was HIV positive

I gather you are well off the fence with feet firmly planted as of now :giggle:

I suppose "lame excuses" might not have been the best words to describe AK's pointing the finger at Patrick, or placing herself in the cottage kitchen covering her ears against MK's screams, or saying that she was hit by police...perhaps "lies" and "false accusations" and/or "hurtful deliberate misstating of the truth" should have been used instead of "lame excuses."

And that doesn't even go into the debatable things--like how close her and MK actually were (or were not), whether or not it was the norm for MK to lock her door, etc.

 

[Nova]

What about accessory after the fact...tampering with a crime scene, etc.? And that's just legal issues, I'm not even getting into the moral ramifications of that.

If someone finds a bloody person who may be dead or in the process of dying, IMHO, not seeking help for them is incredibly abhorrent and should be criminal if it already isn't.

If MK was not dead, but dying, and AK and/or RS covered her with duvet and locked her in her room, well then...IMHO that would make them culpable in her death. Absolutely.

Italy has a "failure-to-assist" law that would apply if AK and RS found MK still alive and did nothing to get aid for her.

Others have said it is the alleged "clean up" that makes AK and RS culpable in the murder. But Mignini has always been careful to include AK and RS *before* the murder as accessories in some way, so it may be he needs them involved in more than the clean up in order to get a murder conviction.

 

[SMK]

What about accessory after the fact...tampering with a crime scene, etc.? And that's just legal issues, I'm not even getting into the moral ramifications of that.

If someone finds a bloody person who may be dead or in the process of dying, IMHO, not seeking help for them is incredibly abhorrent and should be criminal if it already isn't.

If MK was not dead, but dying, and AK and/or RS covered her with duvet and locked her in her room, well then...IMHO that would make them culpable in her death. Absolutely.

I am assuming she was dead, killed by Guede.

 

[flourish]

I am assuming she was dead, killed by Guede.

Assuming, huh...

It is possible that she wasn't dead, but dying, when she was locked in her room, regardless of who locked the room. We don't know when exactly the door was locked, do we?

 

[SMK]

Assuming, huh...

It is possible that she wasn't dead, but dying, when she was locked in her room, regardless of who locked the room. We don't know when exactly the door was locked, do we?

Well, if that is the case, that would be very bad. MK could not have been saved in any case, I do not think. Maybe I am wrong. But of course we cannot really KNOW any of this - it is speculation, only. My sense was that AK and RS MIGHT possibly have come in hours later...I have pondered many times WHY they might have felt partly responsible for what Guede himself undertook to do......Of course, this is only intuition, and hence has no real place in any of the legal aspects. The 2 say they came in later in the morning, so I cannot really say otherwise. The trouble with too much reflection.....

 

[Allusonz]

Assuming, huh...

It is possible that she wasn't dead, but dying, when she was locked in her room, regardless of who locked the room. We don't know when exactly the door was locked, do we?

So true but we don't know when FR might of come back. I don't know why I keep comming back to her but I do. She was quick to send her boyfriend yet had his car. She changed her story 3 times regarding the shutters, and they were in town and she did have a key. As well she called a lawyer immediately, and as the person responsible for the rent if someone were to have an additional key it would of been her

 

[Allusonz]

So, for clarification, let's say that AK and RS were the ones who put the duvet over MK and locked the door. Would you not consider those actions to be part of the crime? Why or why not? TIA

I think they would of cracked under all the questioning if they had of done this as AK and RS both were called in a number of times. I though like Nova could see RG covering her

 

[Allusonz]

I suppose "lame excuses" might not have been the best words to describe AK's pointing the finger at Patrick, or placing herself in the cottage kitchen covering her ears against MK's screams, or saying that she was hit by police...perhaps "lies" and "false accusations" and/or "hurtful deliberate misstating of the truth" should have been used instead of "lame excuses."

And that doesn't even go into the debatable things--like how close her and MK actually were (or were not), whether or not it was the norm for MK to lock her door, etc.

Actually, it was the MASSIVE lame excuses. As for the PL lie I do believe his name had been suggested to her by ILE.

There has been one thing that I believe has not been stated enough here or in the media. The language barriers. It has been shown on a number of occassions that misunderstandings can happen between individuals that speak the same language let alone trying to relay information between ones that speak different ones.

During AK's testimony she finally did switch to Italian as it appeared something was being lost in the translation

 

[Malkmus]

I don't think the duvet covering the body can be used to point the finger at any specific persons. There are numerous reasons any murderer might do so:

1. Remorse
2. The terror perhaps in having to face the mutilated body of your victim while you rummage through their belongings
3. Paranoia that somebody might see the body through the keyhole

Personally, I think whoever did it, did so in a hurry or they would have covered the leg as well. My guess is number 3.

 

[Malkmus]

So true but we don't know when FR might of come back. I don't know why I keep comming back to her but I do. She was quick to send her boyfriend yet had his car. She changed her story 3 times regarding the shutters, and they were in town and she did have a key. As well she called a lawyer immediately, and as the person responsible for the rent if someone were to have an additional key it would of been her

Filomena, like AK, gave contradictory testimony. Her statement that she told Amanda to call the police over the phone was contradicted by her friend Paola who was sitting next to her and says she did not tell Amanda to call the police.