Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[Nova]

Thanks for that - I assume it is good for the defense? One thing I really like: At the time that the bra clasp and knife were reported in the media to be rusty, no dna, etc., places like PMF kept saying this was good for the prosecution, no big deal, would only mean original report would be taken into account----but I wager a 40 day extension shows that is NOT the case. Thanks so much!
ETA: What I meant was, if this was all good for the prosecution as has been so confidently stated, then I would expect the May 9 and May 21 rulings to stand as they were, and not be postponed for such a length of time...

I am not a DNA expert, but I'm not sure this is necessarily good for either side. Since the items in question revealed no new DNA to test, the experts have to go back to the paperwork on the original test and analyze that. I believe the .fsa files are part of what they need for that analysis.

 

[Nova]

I think false confessions comprise a minority - but a significant minority - everywhere globally where there are police interrogations . I did not used to think this, until I began watching true forensic and crime shows.....Mignini did not confess, thus there could be no "false confession" on his part. He was tracked, and records showed behavior beyond the legal, and his 20 indictments were thrown out, and he was convicted, and sentenced to jail (sentence suspended).

I'm sure false confessions are in the minority, but if we include all coerced statements, I honestly don't know any more how common they are. I started out thinking the West Memphis 3 case was an example of a podunk police force, only to discover similar coercions in case after case after case after case, in big cities and in small.

At this point, I'm wondering whether I could even serve on a jury again, I'm so suspicious of LE and its methods.

(ETA just to be clear: I still think examples of LE "framing" a person they know to be innocent are quite rare. What seems all too common, however, is members of LE making snap decisions based on hunches and then pressuring witnesses to confirm those hunches, truth be damned. In other words, it isn't a matter of knowingly framing innocent people, it's a question of tunnel vision and inadvertently framing people that LE believes to be guilty. Last Saturday's 48 Hours dealt with a Florida man who spent 25 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit, even though all but one of the witnesses against him recanted within days of the verdict. Why did he attract the attention of LE? Because they caught him at the beach smoking a joint and he acted nervous because he already had one drug conviction on his record. The police assumed he was nervous because he was the killer. It took a quarter-century before a DNA test cleared him.)

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Was there any evidence of DNA under Meredith's nails? Skin? Hair? Did she fight her attacker(s)? A lack of such evidence could indicate it was more than one attacker. If Meredith had been attacked by one (man)as some theories state, it would reason she would have fought back, and there would be evidence. I have read that as a theory and I agree.

Per Meredith's father, she knew some martial arts.

The defense team tried to have someone scale the wall, but failed.

The glass inside the room proved the widow(glass)had been broken after Meredith was attacked.

Amanda and her boyfriend turned off their phones right before the time of murder, both Amanda and her boyfriend's phones were found "tossed in a yard."

Amanda accused an innocent person. Good, innocent PEOPLE not just girls, American's, etc. do not do such things. Not because they are "high" or upset or feeling "confused." You are either a good person or you are not. Good people when being accused of a horror like the bloody brutal murder of your roommate do not-would not IMHO-ever resort to accusing anyone. IMHO, someone who would do that is a guilty person. An innocent person has the truth-that has been said before on WS and it wasn't me who said it first. If you are innocent you would never give up your credibility like that...

Amanda and Meredith's blood is co mingled in more than three places in the apartment, the crime scene.

Amanda wrote a short story about a young woman who is brutally raped(and killed)by another woman. She gives details about the victim breathing in their own blood. This is what happened to Meredith.

Amanda testified in her own words what Meredith sounded like as she lay dying. "Yucky" is the word she used to describe Meredith's last breaths.

As I have learned in the Anthony case, when you have no case-attack the police. Which the defense has, and also like the Anthony case-the defense is playing the "don't hate her because she is beautiful card." She claims she was scared, intimidated and confused by the officers. Amanda plays naive and scared yet is capable of holding sex parties that are considered scandalous by wild college students and bed three strange men all before having taken a class in Italy.

I believe Amanda Knox is guilty of the murder of Meredith and so did the jury in Italy. Maybe Amanda will be released upon appeal, and have that spa day with her mom. Maybe Amanda will be released upon appeal and hurt someone else, I also see in Amanda Knox what I saw in Joran Van der Sloot.

Many people, GVS included, believed he was innocent in the disappearance of Nat Holloway. Now he sits in a Peruvian prison accused of the brutal death of another young woman. Some people will always say he is innocent, I guess.

Maybe Amanda will be freed, I wonder if she will come back to America? :innocent:

I find it almost impossible to listen to anything Amanda says, her lies are obvious. She has changed her story, she has accused the authorities of abusing her and their power. She has accused an innocent person of murder. She acted flip and glib upon learning of the brutal murder that took place. Why did not one other person, any of the friends(young folk, students)any other single (innocent)person involved in this have a reaction like Amanda?

Sociopaths have used the excuses for their cold behavior as if there is an excuse for cold behavior. Human beings feel. Anything else is an excuse from a cold killer. IMHO.

I feel strongly about speaking out for Meredith. She is the victim.

:cow:

:goodpost:


Excellent Post ! I totally agree !

 

[SMK]

How long before it is announced that the .fsa files have been lost and the appellate experts will just have to make a decision with them?

Yes, Nova, you read my mind!!!

 

[SMK]

I agree. And I think phrases like "accused an innocent man" take on a life of their own in the media and especially over the internet. When AK implicated PL, I have no doubt whatsoever she was being told that LE already had proof that PL committed the murder.

This is NOT to say it was okay for AK to agree to implicate PL. I'm only saying that concessions made under intense interrogation are different from lies invented out of whole cloth.

You are absolutely correct about this difference, and it bothers me that many people cannot seem to grasp this.

 

[SMK]

What seems all too common, however, is members of LE making snap decisions based on hunches and then pressuring witnesses to confirm those hunches, truth be damned.(snipped from Mr. Nova)

You are really an impressario of the subtleties of the whole thing--- this is exactly it, the crux of it, all the way.

 

[wasnt_me]

I thought this thread on Injustice in Perugia was very interesting, because I, too , have always wondered about the downstairs apartment, the cat blood, the bloody tissues outside, the fact that Meredith had the keys to downstairs to water the pot plants, the fact that Guede may have known that the boys were going away for some days, etc. - I always felt the downstairs may have been part of the crime-scene, and now this is being proposed openly by a poster:
This part particularly fascinates me:

If the scars on Rudy's hand are from cat scratches then it could reasonably be conjectured that:

- Rudy had contact with the cat's sensitive infected ear and the cat reacted to the pain by scratching Rudy.
- Rudy gripped paper tissues in his hand to stem the bleeding from the cat cuts.
- Rudy's contact with the cat caused the cat's ear to bleed (or bleed more).
- Rudy got blood on his hand from the cat's bleeding ear.
- Rudy transferred some of the cat's blood on his hand to the light switch downstairs
- Therefore Rudy was downstairs.
- Rudy got into the downstairs apartment with the key that was given to Meredith so she could look after the cat.
- Therefore Rudy stole the key from Meredith.
- Rudy used the flip-flop shoes while cleaning up - possibly showering blood off.
- Rudy did not flee the scene immediately after the stabbing.
- Rudy had an opportunity to re-enter the upstairs later.
- Rudy dropped the bloody paper tissues when he opened his hand and lost his grip on them.
- The bloody paper tissues may have had both cat blood and Rudy's blood/DNA on them.


The Cat and the Cat Burglar:
http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/the-cat-and-the-cat-burglar-t935.html

I was reading this as well. I think someone else in the thread pointed out that he wouldn't have had time to dispose of the phones at by 1013pm if he'd been down there, chilling.

I think it's possible, because RG is telling the truth about at least one thing: he arrived at about 838pm and MK arrived shortly thereafter. So if she was killing by 930pm, he had time to go downstairs. I can't explain away the wet flipflops, so I have to entertain the idea. They said, though, that they tested the tissues and was a match for several other people in DNA, but not RG. Very strange...I have no citation that they actually tested the tissues, just what another poster had said.

Also, there was a theory that MK actually heard RG in the bathroom or saw that the window was broken and she surprised HIM on the toilet, which is why he was scrambling around with his pants half down in his story.

They also thought that she'd threatened to call the police, but really attempted to call her parents. Maybe she didn't know how to call 112 either, and RG started to attack her because she'd started dialing who he thought was the police.

Interesting theory.

 

[SMK]

I was reading this as well. I think someone else in the thread pointed out that he wouldn't have had time to dispose of the phones at by 1013pm if he'd been down there, chilling.

I think it's possible, because RG is telling the truth about at least one thing: he arrived at about 838pm and MK arrived shortly thereafter. So if she was killing by 930pm, he had time to go downstairs. I can't explain away the wet flipflops, so I have to entertain the idea. They said, though, that they tested the tissues and was a match for several other people in DNA, but not RG. Very strange...I have no citation that they actually tested the tissues, just what another poster had said.

Also, there was a theory that MK actually heard RG in the bathroom or saw that the window was broken and she surprised HIM on the toilet, which is why he was scrambling around with his pants half down in his story.

They also thought that she'd threatened to call the police, but really attempted to call her parents. Maybe she didn't know how to call 112 either, and RG started to attack her because she'd started dialing who he thought was the police.

Interesting theory.

Thanks for the clarifying points. So many aspects to consider.....

 

[wasnt_me]

Thinking about it, I can't see why he'd be fazed by her calling the police because he hadn't been when it had happened at the nursey. But maybe this was a different situation in that MK was alone and the teacher at the nursey wasn't. Also, he'd broken in this time to a place where he knew the person.

I can only think that MK fought back in some way, causing them to have to tussle, and that's how it started. Again, I do NOT blame her for fighting back, if she did. But I'm just trying to figure out how he goes from burglar to murderer. For that to happen, I am assuming something different was in the mix than had been in his previous crimes.

 

[wasnt_me]

I agree - I think it is too much of a coincidence too, and yes, it put the idea of going to see her in his mind.

I was reading some other theories on another site, and it seems that they think he's just making it up based on news reports.

I read that his first story was that he'd met MK at the Spanish friends' party, but when it was figured out that MK had been with her british friends at that time, he changed it to say they'd met at Domus (sp?). He explained some elaborate place where he'd seen her in the club, near an arch by the bar or something, but whatever he said, they say there's no spot in the bar to match it. Again, I find that hard to believe because wasn't he at the bar the night of the murder? I don't understand why RG can't remember layouts of places that he's been to.

 

[SMK]

Thinking about it, I can't see why he'd be fazed by her calling the police because he hadn't been when it had happened at the nursey. But maybe this was a different situation in that MK was alone and the teacher at the nursey wasn't. Also, he'd broken in this time to a place where he knew the person.

I can only think that MK fought back in some way, causing them to have to tussle, and that's how it started. Again, I do NOT blame her for fighting back, if she did. But I'm just trying to figure out how he goes from burglar to murderer. For that to happen, I am assuming something different was in the mix than had been in his previous crimes.

Yes, I would agree that something different was in the mix. First, he had some attraction to Meredith, and may have felt humiliated and enraged. Second, he knew a University student would not want the robbery or attack let go....at the Nursery , it was people unknown to him, and basically "no harm done". He knew he had ruined things with the boys downstairs, with running into MK and others at clubs. If it was indeed MK coming in on a "burglary in progress", as Hendry suggests, it must have seemed to Guede to be a disaster. He may have snapped.

 

[SMK]

I was reading some other theories on another site, and it seems that they think he's just making it up based on news reports.

I read that his first story was that he'd met MK at the Spanish friends' party, but when it was figured out that MK had been with her british friends at that time, he changed it to say they'd met at Domus (sp?). He explained some elaborate place where he'd seen her in the club, near an arch by the bar or something, but whatever he said, they say there's no spot in the bar to match it. Again, I find that hard to believe because wasn't he at the bar the night of the murder? I don't understand why RG can't remember layouts of places that he's been to.

Yes, difficult to determine how much of Guede's statements are the truth, how much are lies based on news reports he had read, and how much comes from his own confusion or fogginess (due perhaps to drugs?)

 

[miley]

Notice that Rudy has confused Amanda's room with Laura's room.

Early reports stated that the broken window room was MK's. It was really FR's. But RG apparently searched FR's drawers for cash and then went and searched LM's drawers. After reading the newspaper about the broken window in Mk's room, he assumed that LM's room was AK's room. So there must have been hash in LM's drawer, since he brings it up. so he's trying to pin the missing money on Ak due to reports he'd read in the papers, but he has no idea of which room belongs to whom, which is proof AK didn't invite him to chill in her house.

it must have been pretty dark inside - I'm trying to figure out how the lamp might figure in.. I still think it was most likely pulled out of Amanda's room by someone investigating.

from frankS.comments section... apparently Oggi did an interview w/ Mignini, in it he says he knew Rudy had his hand in Meredith's purse. (I haven't read the article)

no surprise, it was reported everywhere that Rudy's dna was found on her purse -- so why were AK and RS accused of the theft and not Rudy? I never understood this.

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks for that - I assume it is good for the defense? One thing I really like: At the time that the bra clasp and knife were reported in the media to be rusty, no dna, etc., places like PMF kept saying this was good for the prosecution, no big deal, would only mean original report would be taken into account----but I wager a 40 day extension shows that is NOT the case. Thanks so much!
ETA: What I meant was, if this was all good for the prosecution as has been so confidently stated, then I would expect the May 9 and May 21 rulings to stand as they were, and not be postponed for such a length of time...

My honest opinion with respect to this case it that it could be like many others cases that are well documented in which LE has had tunnel vision. With the breakthrough in DNA testing not only has it shown innocent people wrongly convicted but it has also either proved the conviction or found the people that should of been convicted.

The difference with this case it that it went viral in the media not just in Italy but around the world. In many ways it hurt the defense but conversely it also helped their case as it drew the attention of not just the ordinary person but experts from around the world that used their expertise to examine things such as the DNA and say hold it we have a problem. Her guilty verdict had been predicted prior to the trial by many.

I don't believe that the prosecutor or ILE envisioned the scrutiny this case would bring or the fact that world renowned experts would question the competence of the investigation in so many areas. I think they were hoping this case would lose the interest of the media but it did not and now they are hanging onto this case by a thread which at any moment could break

With respect to the DNA we are not talking just experts the defense asked to review it. We are talking experts from the USA, Canada, Australia, Italy, and the UK whom are all saying basically the same thing that an uncertified lab performed testing without following the proper procedures/protocol. The lab where these were tested did not have the proper equipment, ventilation, sterilization procedures, and was not certified according to the standards/protocols which are the accepted worldwide.

Stephanoni in the LCN DNA used testing methodology ever used before. She simply made it up as she went along by changing machine settings. I won't even bother discussing the subjectivity etc. They have refused to release repeatedly over 3 1/2 years to the defense or their experts the .fsa files and still have not yet released it to the independent experts even though it has been requested.This is virtually unheard of as it is standard practice to release these files and are a normal part of the discovery process.

I have read the posts with respect that the past testing does not change anything and they are very wrong. The only people they are fooling are themselves and in doing so are making themselves look very foolish. If it is too low to test or you are not following accepted protocols/procedures the testing is invalidated and should never of been presented at trial. The experts are finding severe issues without having all the electronic data files. I expect that IF they do get them the ramifications should be great and may affect more than just this particular case.

Part of the experts mandate was to review her testing methodology not just to retest the knife and bra clasp. I think my last count was 14 different DNA experts were stating that there were issues and it appears that the independent experts are faced with the same issues.

DNA testing is a tool but like any tool it must be used with caution and properly

It does not just stop with the DNA though. We are talking computer experts that fried hard drives, ILEthat arrested individuals without a reasonable hypothesis prior to the forensics being tested, that leaked information of the investigation in order to try this case in the Court of Public Opinion, that selected a murder weapon based on intuition, that state they forgot to record the interrogations yet do not deny that they had 12 detectives for an overnight interrogation, and the list goes on.

There simply comes a point where you have to wonder was this incompetence or a railroad job? I have oft stated that I compare this case to the Duke lacrosse case that showed the power a prosecutor has when there are not proper checks and balances in place. One of my questions has been is whom has the authority to hold Mignini accountable? Will this particular judge make a statement or follow the pack? I believe this will be a case study that will be used to teach students in the future what NOT TO DO.

 

[Allusonz]

I thought some of you would be interested in Dempseys new blog

“Prosecutor Giuliano Miginini is, in my opinion, a rambling, confused individual,” says CNN investigative correspondent Drew Griffin

Griffin wanted to look at the case through the eyes of the prosecutor, to find out what he saw in the first days to make him fasten upon the 20-year-old University of Washington honor student–and not let go. But instead of talking about hard evidence, Mignini kept returning to Amanda’s odd behavior; her relationship with Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian ex-boyfriend; and even her eyes (which, since they are blue, the Italian press called “icicle eyes.&#8221

“He truly believes she was the criminal mastermind behind the murder and that Raffaele was infatuated and under her spell,” says the CNN reporter.

Most seriously, Mignini kept bringing up mixed blood found in the cottage after the murder, a widely repeated falsity from the earliest days of this sensational case. In fact, court documents do not show mixed blood–only the victim’s blood mixed with Amanda’s DNA in the bathroom they shared.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/05/06/cnn-amanda-knox-prosecutor-rambling-confused/

 

[Allusonz]

it must have been pretty dark inside - I'm trying to figure out how the lamp might figure in.. I still think it was most likely pulled out of Amanda's room by someone investigating.

from frankS.comments section... apparently Oggi did an interview w/ Mignini, in it he says he knew Rudy had his hand in Meredith's purse. (I haven't read the article)

no surprise, it was reported everywhere that Rudy's dna was found on her purse -- so why were AK and RS accused of the theft and not Rudy? I never understood this.

I agree Miley. I believe the lamp made its way there via the investigators

 

[Allusonz]

How long before it is announced that the .fsa files have been lost and the appellate experts will just have to make a decision with them?

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Add mind reading to your list of credentials

 

[SMK]

My honest opinion with respect to this case it that it could be like many others cases that are well documented in which LE has had tunnel vision. With the breakthrough in DNA testing not only has it shown innocent people wrongly convicted but it has also either proved the conviction or found the people that should of been convicted.

The difference with this case it that it went viral in the media not just in Italy but around the world. In many ways it hurt the defense but conversely it also helped their case as it drew the attention of not just the ordinary person but experts from around the world that used their expertise to examine things such as the DNA and say hold it we have a problem. Her guilty verdict had been predicted prior to the trial by many.

I don't believe that the prosecutor or ILE envisioned the scrutiny this case would bring or the fact that world renowned experts would question the competence of the investigation in so many areas. I think they were hoping this case would lose the interest of the media but it did not and now they are hanging onto this case by a thread which at any moment could break

With respect to the DNA we are not talking just experts the defense asked to review it. We are talking experts from the USA, Canada, Australia, Italy, and the UK whom are all saying basically the same thing that an uncertified lab performed testing without following the proper procedures/protocol. The lab where these were tested did not have the proper equipment, ventilation, sterilization procedures, and was not certified according to the standards/protocols which are the accepted worldwide.

Stephanoni in the LCN DNA used testing methodology ever used before. She simply made it up as she went along by changing machine settings. I won't even bother discussing the subjectivity etc. They have refused to release repeatedly over 3 1/2 years to the defense or their experts the .fsa files and still have not yet released it to the independent experts even though it has been requested.This is virtually unheard of as it is standard practice to release these files and are a normal part of the discovery process.

I have read the posts with respect that the past testing does not change anything and they are very wrong. The only people they are fooling are themselves and in doing so are making themselves look very foolish. If it is too low to test or you are not following accepted protocols/procedures the testing is invalidated and should never of been presented at trial. The experts are finding severe issues without having all the electronic data files. I expect that IF they do get them the ramifications should be great and may affect more than just this particular case.

Part of the experts mandate was to review her testing methodology not just to retest the knife and bra clasp. I think my last count was 14 different DNA experts were stating that there were issues and it appears that the independent experts are faced with the same issues.

DNA testing is a tool but like any tool it must be used with caution and properly

It does not just stop with the DNA though. We are talking computer experts that fried hard drives, ILEthat arrested individuals without a reasonable hypothesis prior to the forensics being tested, that leaked information of the investigation in order to try this case in the Court of Public Opinion, that selected a murder weapon based on intuition, that state they forgot to record the interrogations yet do not deny that they had 12 detectives for an overnight interrogation, and the list goes on.

There simply comes a point where you have to wonder was this incompetence or a railroad job? I have oft stated that I compare this case to the Duke lacrosse case that showed the power a prosecutor has when there are not proper checks and balances in place. One of my questions has been is whom has the authority to hold Mignini accountable? Will this particular judge make a statement or follow the pack? I believe this will be a case study that will be used to teach students in the future what NOT TO DO.

You have given me a measure of renewed hope - :great::goodpost::fireworks:

 

[OldSteve]

I thought some of you would be interested in Dempseys new blog

“Prosecutor Giuliano Miginini is, in my opinion, a rambling, confused individual,” says CNN investigative correspondent Drew Griffin

Griffin wanted to look at the case through the eyes of the prosecutor, to find out what he saw in the first days to make him fasten upon the 20-year-old University of Washington honor student–and not let go. But instead of talking about hard evidence, Mignini kept returning to Amanda’s odd behavior; her relationship with Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian ex-boyfriend; and even her eyes (which, since they are blue, the Italian press called “icicle eyes.”)

“He truly believes she was the criminal mastermind behind the murder and that Raffaele was infatuated and under her spell,” says the CNN reporter.

Most seriously, Mignini kept bringing up mixed blood found in the cottage after the murder, a widely repeated falsity from the earliest days of this sensational case. In fact, court documents do not show mixed blood–only the victim’s blood mixed with Amanda’s DNA in the bathroom they shared.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/05/06/cnn-amanda-knox-prosecutor-rambling-confused/

Thanks for this info! Gee, my Italian grandmother had striking blue eyes... wonder what kind of attention that must have gotten her when she was young, back in Italy...

 

[SMK]

“Prosecutor Giuliano Miginini is, in my opinion, a rambling, confused individual,” says CNN investigative correspondent Drew Griffin. . . Even though nearly all evidence points squarely at Rudy and nothing links Amanda to the crime scene, prosecutor Mignini has directed a laser beam at her. Griffin was surprised by Mignini’s willingness to say all sorts of things about Amanda that were not part of the trial. “The kind of things that, if a prosecutor came to court in the U.S. and put before a judge, would get his whole case thrown out.” http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/05/06/cnn-amanda-knox-prosecutor-rambling-confused/

I am thinking that if you take all of this into account, and add it into to his own criminal conviction and 20 thrown-out indictments, this man creates messes, and is not the professional he ought to be.