Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[otto]

If one thing is certain regarding this issue and the case in general (as well in the investigation of the murder), it is that lying doesn't pay... to investigators or in blogs.

I'm with you on this. When Amanda lied about Patrick being a murderer and the police beating statements out of her, there were consequences. Many people objected, giving the impression that it's quite all right in their eyes for women to go around telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives and livlihoods. In a society without morals, perhaps it's quite acceptable to destroy people with whopper lives, but apparently it's not acceptable in Italy. We have seen outrage because Amanda is held to the morals in Italy, where she has damaged lives. Too bad for Amanda. It is reasonable to have consequences for telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives. Today we have Frank, and the court of Florence seems to think that Frank told a whopper of a lie about the prosecutor. There are again consequences. What do we see? More outrage. Eventually everyone will understand that whopper lies told in Italy about Italian public officials will have consequences. As long as Frank lives in Italy and tells whopper lies about public officials, he alone will suffer the consequences - even if the lies are published in Sweden.

 

[otto]

I still say just in the case of wikileaks, if Sweden allows it, so be it. Italy cannot do anything about Sweden.

and if you're waiting for the facts to come out, it's prudent to reserve judgment on Frank until you have those facts, because as I said before judges and juries are not infallable.

I additionally think it could be problematic for Frank that well-meaning people might be acting without consulting with him. Afterall, as we've discussed, it is his blog, his copyrighted work. If he can't have control over what they are doing with it, that is bad for him, no matter what Italy says. I think the best thing for italy to do is ban the site in Italy. I disagree with that type of move, but What more can it do if Sweden is hosting the blog? Declare war on Sweden?

I remember a rape case where a young man fled to sweden for years and years to avoid US prosecution. We asked for him back. Sweden would not comply. that was allowing that man to break US law. Sweden did not care. So that's just how it is. Didn't we have that problem with a famous man who'd raped a girl and then went and lived over there. I can't remember his name right now. Oscar winner or something.

In any event, each country has its own laws and other countries can't do anything about that without invading. So Italy's hands are tied, is all i know.

Interesting that you recognize that Sweden has laws different from the US and Italy, and it's viewed as a good thing for Frank, but the laws in Italy are not recognized as a good thing for Meredith Kercher.

 

[Nova]

Lots of excuses for the fact that Doug Preston can't keep his facts straight!

:sigh:

Actually, I explained how two remarks made in different contexts might seem to conflict yet each be accurate in its own context. I'm sorry if that was too subtle for you.

 

[Nova]

OK, this is at least prior to the crime. But Otto, I am not sure how old you are. But I went back to college and grad school in the late 90s, early 00s. And I can tell you unequivocally, rape, date rape, sexual molestation are themes which young girls and young women write about constantly, thanks to the victim feminist movement begun in academia by Dworkin and others. Of course Amanda is thinking about sexual violence against women! It is the academic initiation nowadays, part of women's studies, etc. I took a philosophy of feminism class on Saturdays, all women 18-30, which I withdrew from, because all anyone talked about was rape!

I mean to take NOTHING from your remarks (no fan of Dworkin here) when I point out that granting everything you say, it is also true that college-age women are statistically more likely to be victims of rape. That may also be why it is on their minds.

 

[Nova]

Knox has written two stories about violence against women (that we know of), one before the murder, one after. She is convicted of violence against a woman - a brutal murder. If there is no correlation between what is going on in her head, what she puts on paper and her actions, then she must be an alien.

Regarding your claim that student's in their early twenties are fixated on crime and violence because that's what they know, I vehemently disagree. I have taught post-secondary students for years, and I have yet to see the theme of crime and violence in any student submissions. I have also wrtten far too many papers myself, and never once have I been inclined to fixate on violence against women. Much as many would like to neutralize what Knox puts on paper, I personally see absolutely no excuse for it. In my opinion, not only is the quality of her writing a C (not excellent or honors), but the content is anything but normal.

Whatever were you teaching, otto? Since you seem to think a short story is some sort of blueprint for crime, I'm assuming you don't teach creative writing.

I don't know where you live and teach, otto. I live and used to teach in AK's country of origin--where TVs quite commonly have 1,000 channels, hundreds of which are devoted to violence in one form or another.

 

[SMK]

Knox has written two stories about violence against women (that we know of), one before the murder, one after. She is convicted of violence against a woman - a brutal murder. If there is no correlation between what is going on in her head, what she puts on paper and her actions, then she must be an alien.

Regarding your claim that student's in their early twenties are fixated on crime and violence because that's what they know, I vehemently disagree. I have taught post-secondary students for years, and I have yet to see the theme of crime and violence in any student submissions. I have also wrtten far too many papers myself, and never once have I been inclined to fixate on violence against women. Much as many would like to neutralize what Knox puts on paper, I personally see absolutely no excuse for it. In my opinion, not only is the quality of her writing a C (not excellent or honors), but the content is anything but normal.

Obviously, Nova and I have had different experiences regarding taking/teaching classes. I agree Knox's writing is absolutely NOT on the honors' level--- a sign of the slipping standards of colleges!

 

[SMK]

I mean to take NOTHING from your remarks (no fan of Dworkin here) when I point out that granting everything you say, it is also true that college-age women are statistically more likely to be victims of rape. That may also be why it is on their minds.

You are right, Nova. It is likely a combination of these female students being actually quite vulnerable, while at the same time having this vulnerability heightened considerably by the Dworkin ideology. In the end, obsession with rape is a common ailment on college campuses in the U.S. I am stunned that Otto has not encountered this, as I thought it was a global phenomenem.

 

[SMK]

I'm with you on this. When Amanda lied about Patrick being a murderer and the police beating statements out of her, there were consequences. Many people objected, giving the impression that it's quite all right in their eyes for women to go around telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives and livlihoods. In a society without morals, perhaps it's quite acceptable to destroy people with whopper lives, but apparently it's not acceptable in Italy. We have seen outrage because Amanda is held to the morals in Italy, where she has damaged lives. Too bad for Amanda. It is reasonable to have consequences for telling whopper lies that damage other people's lives. Today we have Frank, and the court of Florence seems to think that Frank told a whopper of a lie about the prosecutor. There are again consequences. What do we see? More outrage. Eventually everyone will understand that whopper lies told in Italy about Italian public officials will have consequences. As long as Frank lives in Italy and tells whopper lies about public officials, he alone will suffer the consequences - even if the lies are published in Sweden.

I will admit, Otto; I do agree that there is a cultural attitude which is lax about lying. For example I have a female relative who has done serious lying (about paternity, and other things) and I am seen as an idiot for taking it seriously and condemning her. To a certain extent, I agree with you. But there are mitigating factors, and I hate to say this , but Mignini himself lies like a horse. We know Amanda immediately recanted, and we know Frank is as honest as the day is long. Right?

 

[SMK]

I do see that Perugia Shock is online via IIP here : http://perugiashock.com/

I do not know what this means in terms of the court order Google received to comply and seize the blog.

ETA: I know someone posted this before, but I was just reading Bruce Fisher's article on Google News and it has the link. and I am thinking perhaps there will be another court order taking this one down, if the court means business.

 

[Malkmus]

The topic of Amanda's short stories was, i think, the first conversation I had with you guys on this thread. I brought up back then, but it seems to be forgotten easily, that the second short story was only speculated to be written by Amanda. Because the story was written by someone at Capanne prison, and because the person's name was Marie (and Amanda's middle name is Marie) it was speculated by an Italian paper that it was Knox. I think also because the last name of the author is Pace (which means "peace") it was also suspected to be an alias. Pace is a common Italian last name. But it's important to note that this stems from one newspaper guessing this was Knox.

 

[Malkmus]

Why am I not surprised you side (without all the facts of course) with poor persecuted AK and Frank by reading that blog (by AK supporter) about what happened to a AK supporter, and what AK supporters are doing by re-posting the blog? Doesn't seem the Judge or Google thought it was frivolous. CPJ has validated nothing.

The offending post is cited in the blog. Mignini's letter is also there. What do you think is justifiable about Mignini's suit against Frank? He wrote that Mignini was surprised to find out Curatolo was a drug dealer. Big whoop.

 

[otto]

Nova, I've discovered the answer to something we debated several weeks ago. The question was whether Rudy spoke English. I finally decided to finish Dempsey's book, and she discusses Rudy having a working knowledge of English - although he used phonetic spelling.

 

[SMK]

The offending post is cited in the blog. Mignini's letter is also there. What do you think is justifiable about Mignini's suit against Frank? He wrote that Mignini was surprised to find out Curatolo was a drug dealer. Big whoop.

I agree, big whoop, much ado about nada, and Mignini is just being his hyper self as always.

 

[otto]

What a feast of lawsuits surround the murder of Meredith Kercher! I didn't know (or forgot) that Rudy's lawyer sued Tacopina for slander way back when Tacopina suggested that Rudy alone murdered Meredith. We also have the lawsuit against Dr Sollecito for released crime scene photos to the media. It's a law professor's dream.

 

[otto]

:sigh:

Actually, I explained how two remarks made in different contexts might seem to conflict yet each be accurate in its own context. I'm sorry if that was too subtle for you.

I hear you. You've speculated that perhaps the 3 hours were split into two segments and one of the segments was 2 hours, and so on. I disagree. It was one three hour period of questioning according to Doug Preston up until recently, when it seems he's gradually reducing the time to two hours. I think it screams "agenda", but I can understand that others may believe that Preston was somehow unclear in what he meant when he first said three hours.

 

[otto]

Whatever were you teaching, otto? Since you seem to think a short story is some sort of blueprint for crime, I'm assuming you don't teach creative writing.

I don't know where you live and teach, otto. I live and used to teach in AK's country of origin--where TVs quite commonly have 1,000 channels, hundreds of which are devoted to violence in one form or another.

I haven't said that a short story is a blueprint for crime, nor have I said that everyone that writes rape trash goes on to commit murder. What I said is that Amanda is a dull, uninteresting person. Further discussion led to me elaborating on my opinion of her character, and describing her as producing violent writings, amongst other undesirable traits such as being a liar of the worst kind and et cetera.

So ... did Amanda grow up in a home with parents that installed 1000 TV channels, of which hundreds are devoted to violence? Any child would be messed up growing up in a broken home with that kind of entertainment ... don't you think, or am I wrong?

 

[Nova]

Journalists used to fact check and report news. It seems like today, everyone with a blog and a keyboard considers him or herself to be a journalist. Preston is a novelist and crime writer according to his biography.

"Crime writing" is a form of journalism.

That he also writes fiction merely puts him in the good company of writers such as Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Gore Vidal and Norman Mailer.

BTW, all of the above wrote about violence and killing. To my knowledge, none is known to have ever committed a murder.

 

[Nova]

I'm still waiting to hear the details of why there is a court order forcing Frank's Perugia-Shock blog to be removed. I'm concerned that Frank's problems will be multiplied by well-intentioned pro-innocenti who are running around trying to get Frank back online. I'm wondering why people are duplicating Frank's writings, knowing full well that it could have repercussions for Frank. As I said before, Frank cannot be ignorant of the fact that others are republishing his work, so it gives the appearance that he is essentially trying to circumvent the court order. I don't think the court in Florence will take kindly to this.

BBM: good word choice, otto! I'll be happy to be known as pro-innocenti on this and any other case.

 

[otto]

Obviously, Nova and I have had different experiences regarding taking/teaching classes. I agree Knox's writing is absolutely NOT on the honors' level--- a sign of the slipping standards of colleges!

I think that anyone that has ever graded a paper in any subject knows that Amanda's writing was definitely not honor's quality ... good to know that we agree on something! I can understand that courses in Women's Studies and Sociology would cover violence against women, but Amanda wasn't writing academic papers on violence against women, she was taking a Creative Writing class and writing what was in her thoughts ... putting it on paper. What she put on paper was not nice to read or think about ... I mean, it was ugly, not beautiful, insightful, gentle, generous, warm ... It didn't have anything good in it.

 

[Nova]

I still say just in the case of wikileaks, if Sweden allows it, so be it. Italy cannot do anything about Sweden.

and if you're waiting for the facts to come out, it's prudent to reserve judgment on Frank until you have those facts, because as I said before judges and juries are not infallable.

I additionally think it could be problematic for Frank that well-meaning people might be acting without consulting with him. Afterall, as we've discussed, it is his blog, his copyrighted work. If he can't have control over what they are doing with it, that is bad for him, no matter what Italy says. I think the best thing for italy to do is ban the site in Italy. I disagree with that type of move, but What more can it do if Sweden is hosting the blog? Declare war on Sweden?

I remember a rape case where a young man fled to sweden for years and years to avoid US prosecution. We asked for him back. Sweden would not comply. that was allowing that man to break US law. Sweden did not care. So that's just how it is. Didn't we have that problem with a famous man who'd raped a girl and then went and lived over there. I can't remember his name right now. Oscar winner or something.

In any event, each country has its own laws and other countries can't do anything about that without invading. So Italy's hands are tied, is all i know.

You are thinking of Oscar-winning director, Roman Polanski, who had sex with a 13-year-old girl in the 1970s. He has been in exile mostly in France ever since. Last year, the U.S. got the Swiss (not the Swedes) to hold him for extradition, but after a long proceeding Switzerland declined to return him to the U.S. and let him go.