Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[SMK]

Prosecutors in the US care about their conviction record because they are elected. A poor conviction rate for US prosecutors means they could be out of a job. In most countries, prosecutors are hired into full time positions. They care more about justice than winning, and losing a case does not mean they could lose their job.

In this sense, America has an inferior, unethical system. Yuck.

 

[SMK]

Prosecutors Comodi and Mignini did not find Amanda and Raffaele guilty of murder. I fail to understand why, in this case alone, the prosecutors are held responsible for the decision of a jury. This was a trial where several defense lawyers and experts presented their interpretation of the evidence. Because they failed to present a convincing case, the prosecutors are criticized for presenting a solid case. It doesn't stop there. The jury has been accused of being unable to base the verdict on the evidence presented in court because they were not sequestered. The Brad Cooper jury was not sequestered either, but we don't hear suggestions that they were unable to base the verdict on what was presented in court. Apparently it is only Italian juries that are unable to follow the judge's instructions. The Italian legal system is different from the legal system in the US. So what. Nearly every legal system is different from the US system. That doesn't mean every other legal system is corrupt, it means that there are different legal systems in this world.

The jury noted after the verdict that statements Amanda voluntarily made were critical in their decision. The prosecutors are not responble for the words that pop out of Amanda's mouth, yet so many excuses are made for the convicted murderer. Based on what I've seen discussed here, there is an excuse for absolutely everything Amanda said and did. I get the impression that Amanda's life was nothing but a series of others making excuses for her behavior ... think back to her parents claims of "oh, that's just Amanda." I suppose it is, it's just Amanda doing whatever Amanda wants and everyone letting it go as "that's just Amanda." She's convicted of murder, but that's just Amanda being Amanda and it's not her fault ... blame the media, the prosecutors, the investigators, the forensic analysts, the forensic lab, the jury, the judge, the judicial system ... anyone but Amanda.

The evidence is not restricted to a knife and bra clasp, and the fact that DNA evidence that was already tested cannot be retested years later is not surprising. How often is DNA evidence subjected to retesting in order to release convicted prisoners? I've never heard of it before. Let's eliminate the knife and bra clasp. We are still left with a bucket full of evidence starting with problematic alibis, numerous lies, an unexplained staged break in and so much more that has been discussed ad nauseum for four years. For each piece of evidence convicting Amanda, there is a different person to blame ... one great big conspiracy ... one that some have called anti-Americanism in Italy. Yep, the entire country is out to get Amanda.

1. When her father said, "That was just Amanda being Amanda", he meant the cartwheels or yoga or whatever. I would say the same thing about my son. He is quirky as hell. Her father NEVER said, "Sex murder? Just Amanda being Amanda." Let us not take things out of context.
2. What about those of us - especially yours truly - who like Mignini, and admire him, but believe he made a human error; who love Italy and Perugia and find NO anti-Americanism - yet still believe the break-in was NOT staged and the evidence does NOT hold. I never said it was a conspiracy against Amanda. I said it was an error. :behindbar

 

[TorisMom003]

When I refer to Knox's violent writings, or "creative writing", I am specifically referring to her Baby Brother story, about a rape, and the story she wrote in prison for which she won the prison writing award, a story about the attack of a young woman who is left to die. Those writings are a window to her mind, and what is seen through that window is violence against women.

So then the books written by authors such as Stephen King tell us what type of person he really is? Does this mean that Stephen King would rape several women, strangle them, leave their bodies in a ditch on the side of a road simply because he has written a story about a character doing that exact thing? That really seems to be pushing it to me. Dean Koontz is another that has written some very scary things, is he also writting about what is in his mind, what he wants or has done? That seems like a very disturbing thought process to me. If that were the case then we would have to arrest the majority of authors, film-makers, and even some artists. And what of the people (like myself) who reads those books, watches those movies or tv shows or even buys those pieces of art? Should they also be looked at as a person that has evil in their hearts and minds?

 

[SMK]

So then the books written by authors such as Stephen King tell us what type of person he really is? Does this mean that Stephen King would rape several women, strangle them, leave their bodies in a ditch on the side of a road simply because he has written a story about a character doing that exact thing? That really seems to be pushing it to me. Dean Koontz is another that has written some very scary things, is he also writting about what is in his mind, what he wants or has done? That seems like a very disturbing thought process to me. If that were the case then we would have to arrest the majority of authors, film-makers, and even some artists. And what of the people (like myself) who reads those books, watches those movies or tv shows or even buys those pieces of art? Should they also be looked at as a person that has evil in their hearts and minds?

I agree with you. I love Capote's "In Cold Blood" as do millions of others. He wrote a second fictional book about murder ("Hand-Carved Coffins") but we know he was a gentle man. I love also to watch Lifetime movies often about family members committing murder for Insurance and hiding the bodies, acting normal. I also read books about murders, and have written a few short stories about the same. In my real life, I have never harmed anyone and never considered murder under any circumstances. I think with Knox and Sollecito, only the evidence or lack thereof is relevant to this case.

 

[TorisMom003]

I've tried to read all of the posts here but I have a question that may or may not have already been answered. If this has been answered can someone please point me to the post or posts that answer it, please and thank you. So my question is this..........what evidence is there that puts AK and RG in the room that MK was murdered in? Other than the supposed bra clasp dna that was left to sit on the floor for an extended period of time before it was decided to possibly be evidence.

Also I would like to know how could AK and RG have cleaned up anything that had their dna or prints on in the room that MK was found in but to have still had so much dna and prints of RS that did not get cleaned up? That sounds to me like something that is not even close to being possible. And if no dna or prints of AK and RG were not found in that room then how could they possibly have been involved?

One other thing. Yes, AK and RG were found guilty by a jury however the case against them would have never have gotten that far except for Mignini making his snap decision that they were in fact guilty. IMO Mignini was like a dog with a bone that refused to give it up. Even when the evidence clearly pointed to another person it was still decided that AK and RG had to have had something to do with it as well so let's make up a story that makes it fit. If the evidence is not the only thing that determines who the police and prosecutors look at then of course there will be people questioning the actions and decisions of those doing the accusing.

 

[Malkmus]

So it's possible that there are 11 Italian prisoners learning Italian and writng about about abandoning a dying woman?

I don't know what the number 11 or learning Italian has to do with this. A short story emerged from Capanne prison about a man who regrets not saving a girl from an overdose. The alias Marie Pace was used. That's all we know. One Italian newspaper said "it could be Amanda Knox" and you ant to use that as a fact that it is hers. But in the end, it doesn't even matter whether she wrote it or not as Nova said. It doesn't tell us anything.

 

[Malkmus]

I couldn't find the actual lawsuit. I like to see things with my own eyes, but I couldn't find it ... you know ... the stamps and signatures showing the pdf file of the document? It's a long blog entry ... whereabouts is the link?

Why? We know what the suit is about. Are you unclear about what Mignini had a problem with in Sfarzo's blog article? It's been pointed out to you several times. Seeing stamps and signatures aren't going to make Mignini's ridiculous lawsuit any less ridiculous.

Are you wondering why a prosecutor is right at the end of a trial? Let me count the ways. The jury makes the decision whether the accused is guilty, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the prosecutor ... unless you want to hold people like NC prosecutors Boz and Coomings responsible for the fact that Cupper was found guilty. The prosecutors, Comodi and co-counsel, made the better argument even though defense was permitted to attack evidence as it was presented. Is it their fault that all those defense lawyers were unable to successfully convince a jury that their clients were innocent?

No I never wondered that, so I don't know why you're telling me any of this. But you seem to be implying that anytime a prosecutor wins a trial that it's because he was right. As we all know, they don't always get it right even if the jury believes them.

 

[Malkmus]

Does that matter? Are you suggesting that if I meet someone on Monday and they steal from me on Tuesday, that my Monday impression is more significant than my Tuesday impression?

I think not.

The what and when of why Patrick said Amanda has no soul absolutely is significant if you're trying to use that statement to describe what he thought of her in general.

 

[SMK]

I've tried to read all of the posts here but I have a question that may or may not have already been answered. If this has been answered can someone please point me to the post or posts that answer it, please and thank you. So my question is this..........what evidence is there that puts AK and RG in the room that MK was murdered in? Other than the supposed bra clasp dna that was left to sit on the floor for an extended period of time before it was decided to possibly be evidence.

Also I would like to know how could AK and RG have cleaned up anything that had their dna or prints on in the room that MK was found in but to have still had so much dna and prints of RS that did not get cleaned up? That sounds to me like something that is not even close to being possible. And if no dna or prints of AK and RG were not found in that room then how could they possibly have been involved?

One other thing. Yes, AK and RG were found guilty by a jury however the case against them would have never have gotten that far except for Mignini making his snap decision that they were in fact guilty. IMO Mignini was like a dog with a bone that refused to give it up. Even when the evidence clearly pointed to another person it was still decided that AK and RG had to have had something to do with it as well so let's make up a story that makes it fit. If the evidence is not the only thing that determines who the police and prosecutors look at then of course there will be people questioning the actions and decisions of those doing the accusing.

I agree with your last two paragraphs. As for what proofs there are, this list was made by Sherlock, and the refutations are satirical, but I actually think that none of this is indeed proof:
- The mixed blood/DNA trail left by AK right after the murder would have convicted them by itself, but no...it is all normal because she lived there...lol...
- The bloody footprints are not blood because they could have been isolated soil, fruit juice or spinach events that AK and her bf of one week don't remember. That one was right in front of the murder room is just a coincidence, that one print had mixed DNA in it is just normal, and that one print matched the bloody bathmat print is just another expert error.
- That the bathmat footprint was subscribed to RS is also an expert error. After all, there is only 4 sizes difference between RS and RG. And that hammer toe thing? Just cut off a piece of the big toe, and claim RG merged his big and 2nd toe together. Problem solved.
- The DNA on the knife? Another expert error.
- DNA on the bra clasp? Contamination. Just look at some youtube video
- Staged break-in? No, there is a scratch on the wall. Break-in proven.
- Confession? What confession? The police coerced them in an hour or 2. That RS doesn't want to correct himself in court is his good right. That AK confirmed her confession in writing the next day doesn't count either. She didn't mean it like that.
- Witnesses? All druggies, or deaf. Don't count.

 

[otto]

The what and when of why Patrick said Amanda has no soul absolutely is significant if you're trying to use that statement to describe what he thought of her in general.

We know when and why Patrick said that Amanda has no soul. Why is there such a problem with this? That's what he believes. He formed this opinion through knowing and interacting with Knox.

 

[Malkmus]

That is what I was afraid of No matter how many more trials there will be, or how many more independent experts will validate the evidence there will be people who won't believe it because they already made up their mind. But no matter the outcome I will always remember the excuses. Here are my favorites

You make it sound as if there have already been appeal trials and independent experts who have reviewed the case and deemed the guilty verdict just. Don't get ahead of yourself. The first appeal trial has just started and so has the first independent expert verification of the evidence and so far it's been the opposite of any sort of validation of the evidence.

- The mixed blood/DNA trail left by AK right after the murder would have convicted them by itself, but no...it is all normal because she lived there...lol...

There was no blood "trail" or DNA "trail" attributed to Amanda - Rudy was the only one who left any sort of trail. But I know that adding false descriptors like that helps embellish the already weak evidence. DNA evidence is helpful in placing people where they shouldn't be. Amanda lived there, so yeah, doesn't quite have the affect that finding someone's DNA such as Rudy who had never been there before has.

That is what I was afraid of No matter how many more trials there will be, or how many more independent experts will validate the evidence there will be people who won't believe it because they already made up their mind. But no matter the outcome I will always remember the excuses. Here are my favorites

You make it sound as if there have already been appeal trials and independent experts who have reviewed the case and deemed the guilty verdict just. Don't get ahead of yourself. The first appeal trial has just started and so has the first independent expert verification of the evidence and so far it's been the opposite of any sort of validation of the evidence.

- The bloody footprints are not blood because they could have been isolated soil, fruit juice or spinach events that AK and her bf of one week don't remember.

Well, no. The "bloody footprints" aren't blood because they TESTED NEGATIVE FOR BLOOD. Bleach and iron also causes Luminol to react fyi.

That one was right in front of the murder room is just a coincidence, that one print had mixed DNA in it is just normal, and that one print matched the bloody bathmat print is just another expert error.

Sherlock, why do you think no Luminol prints were found in the murder room seeing as that's where they would have originated from? The bathmat print matches Rudy, and is completely different from Raffaelle. Anyone who compares the prints with their own eyes can see this. It's that obvious.

- That the bathmat footprint was subscribed to RS is also an expert error. After all, there is only 4 sizes difference between RS and RG. And that hammer toe thing? Just cut off a piece of the big toe, and claim RG merged his big and 2nd toe together. Problem solved.

The hammerhead discrepancy is more obvious than that. It's a disctinct triangle shape. Since whoever made the print obviously put there big toe in blood, why isn't the toe also shaped like RS's triangular hammerhead toe?

- The DNA on the knife? Another expert error.

Well yeah. Or are you ignoring the proceedings of the appeals? A lot's been happening.

- DNA on the bra clasp? Contamination. Just look at some youtube video

Again, might want to keep up the appeals.

- Staged break-in? No, there is a scratch on the wall. Break-in proven.

Now, you're not even trying. Why not tell us what so obviously makes it a fake one?

- Confession? What confession? The police coerced them in an hour or 2. That RS doesn't want to correct himself in court is his good right. That AK confirmed her confession in writing the next day doesn't count either. She didn't mean it like that.

Well, that's a fact. Her letter the next day recounts what she did the night of the murder and doesn't include anything about meeting Patrick, hence no confession. Nova is correct. Adding sarcasm doesn't make any of what you're implying true.

- Witnesses? All druggies, or deaf. Don't count.

How about druggies and deaf people who gave conflicting testimony.

This case is actually so simple. Anyway, I am waiting for some real news on the case. Nothing much going on.

Classic. Of course you would ignore all the major blows the prosecution has had in the appeals thus far.

Frank's case has no bearing on the Meredith Kercher case. I don't understand why Websleuths is allowing the derailment. All JMO

Maybe you should lodge a formal complaint then if you think it's so apparent.

 

[Malkmus]

We know when and why Patrick said that Amanda has no soul. Why is there such a problem with this? That's what he believes. He formed this opinion through knowing and interacting with Knox.

No, he interacted with her while she was employed at his bar. And that's the problem with what you're implying. He formed that opinion of her after being arrested based on her statement. But you would have us believe that while she was working for him he was studying her behavior and deemed her soulless. I think it's quite obvious to everyone debating this topic with you that that is what you are doing, and it's disingenuous to state otherwise.

 

[costalpilot]

So then the books written by authors such as Stephen King tell us what type of person he really is? Does this mean that Stephen King would rape several women, strangle them, leave their bodies in a ditch on the side of a road simply because he has written a story about a character doing that exact thing? That really seems to be pushing it to me. Dean Koontz is another that has written some very scary things, is he also writting about what is in his mind, what he wants or has done? That seems like a very disturbing thought process to me. If that were the case then we would have to arrest the majority of authors, film-makers, and even some artists. And what of the people (like myself) who reads those books, watches those movies or tv shows or even buys those pieces of art? Should they also be looked at as a person that has evil in their hearts and minds?

yeah, well those authors aren't in prison, convicted of murder.

makes a slight difference in what I think.

that must be meredith just being meredith. i wonder if that description might explain what happened that night? and that italy got it right, even if their process was flawed.

its certainly possible.

 

[Nova]

She didn't get it from anywhere, because she didn't say it, at least not in her book, she didn't.

AMANDA had far worse things to worry over than her portrayal in British tabloids. In fact, she was feeling very frightened, as she described in her diary on November 22:

Last night before I went to bed I was taken down to see yet another doctor who I haven’t yet met before. He had my results from a test they took—which says I’m positive for HIV. First of all the guy told me not to worry, it could be a mistake, they’re going to take a second test next week. I don’t want to die. I want to get married and have children. I want to create something good. I want to get old. I want my time. I want my life. Why why why? I can’t believe this. She then dutifully made a list of everyone she’d ever had sex with, describing the birth control method used with each. Then a week later, a prison official told her not to worry, that she didn’t have HIV after all. When the English tabloids leaked that page of her diary in June 2008, they claimed, erroneously, that she’d boasted of her sexual conquests and had had “seven lovers in sixty days in Italy,” even though the diary stated that seven was her lifetime total of lovers.

Dempsey, Candace (2010). Murder in Italy: The Shocking Slaying of a British Student, the Accused American Girl, and anInternational Scandal (Kindle Locations 3739-3747). Berkley. Kindle Edition.

Thank you. I don't have that book. But I did find a photo of the diary page at one link and it neither confirms nor denies that AK was told to make the list.

It is standard procedure with STDs, however, so it would be yet another example of Italian incompetence if she were NOT told to make a list.

 

[Nova]

I could take the time to find the exact page, but I doubt it will make any difference to those that want to perceive Amanda as not responsible for anything that happens in her life. There has been plenty of discussion about who released the list of sex partners ... specifically that it was released by the family to demonstrate that Amanda was being psychologically tortured into believing that she was HIV positive. All of this information makes no difference. Instead, some people want to believe that Amanda was forced to make the list, and then police released it. All the discussion about what happened is ignored if it means that Amanda is responsible for Amanda's actions.

1. AK is responsible for when and with whom she chooses to have sex.

2. The supposedly "false positive" is very, very rare and therefore suspicious.

3. It is common practice to ask STD patients for a list of their sex partners.

4. Given #2, it is reasonable to wonder about #3 and whether #3 was the real reason for #2.

5. We've already been through the claim that the Knox family released the diaries and the theory doesn't hold water. How did they acquire copies of handwritten materials in police custody? (Or conversely, if the Knox family had the diaries, how is it that ILE had copies?) How did they acquire copies of RS' diaries? That some people continue to repeat this highly unlikely rumor is ill-advised*. IMO, of course.

*Adjective changed to "ill-advised" because my original choice of wording went too far.

 

[Nova]

Prosecutors Comodi and Mignini did not find Amanda and Raffaele guilty of murder. I fail to understand why, in this case alone, the prosecutors are held responsible for the decision of a jury. This was a trial where several defense lawyers and experts presented their interpretation of the evidence. Because they failed to present a convincing case, the prosecutors are criticized for presenting a solid case. It doesn't stop there. The jury has been accused of being unable to base the verdict on the evidence presented in court because they were not sequestered. The Brad Cooper jury was not sequestered either, but we don't hear suggestions that they were unable to base the verdict on what was presented in court. Apparently it is only Italian juries that are unable to follow the judge's instructions. The Italian legal system is different from the legal system in the US. So what. Nearly every legal system is different from the US system. That doesn't mean every other legal system is corrupt, it means that there are different legal systems in this world.

The jury noted after the verdict that statements Amanda voluntarily made were critical in their decision. The prosecutors are not responble for the words that pop out of Amanda's mouth, yet so many excuses are made for the convicted murderer. Based on what I've seen discussed here, there is an excuse for absolutely everything Amanda said and did. I get the impression that Amanda's life was nothing but a series of others making excuses for her behavior ... think back to her parents claims of "oh, that's just Amanda." I suppose it is, it's just Amanda doing whatever Amanda wants and everyone letting it go as "that's just Amanda." She's convicted of murder, but that's just Amanda being Amanda and it's not her fault ... blame the media, the prosecutors, the investigators, the forensic analysts, the forensic lab, the jury, the judge, the judicial system ... anyone but Amanda.

The evidence is not restricted to a knife and bra clasp, and the fact that DNA evidence that was already tested cannot be retested years later is not surprising. How often is DNA evidence subjected to retesting in order to release convicted prisoners? I've never heard of it before. Let's eliminate the knife and bra clasp. We are still left with a bucket full of evidence starting with problematic alibis, numerous lies, an unexplained staged break in and so much more that has been discussed ad nauseum for four years. For each piece of evidence convicting Amanda, there is a different person to blame ... one great big conspiracy ... one that some have called anti-Americanism in Italy. Yep, the entire country is out to get Amanda.

Yes, indeed, let's eliminate the knife and bra clasp. We now have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that RS was involved in the crime. Since he wasn't involved, he makes an excellent alibi witness for AK.

In what remains, we have a curious lack of evidence that the break-in was staged, but if it was, we have no direct evidence and very little circumstantial evidence that AK did the staging.

We have hundreds of pages of tabloid gossip, much of which was improperly admitted at trial, and that's about it.

And FYI, prosecutors are always given responsibility for wins and losses in the courtroom. As wasnt_me pointed out a page ago, that's why their win/loss records are so important to them.

Focus on the prosecution isn't unique to this case; abuse of prosecutorial authority is.

 

[Nova]

Prosecutors in the US care about their conviction record because they are elected. A poor conviction rate for US prosecutors means they could be out of a job. In most countries, prosecutors are hired into full time positions. They care more about justice than winning, and losing a case does not mean they could lose their job.

Only the head D.A. is elected, otto, and that's only true in terms of state systems. Of course, the D.A. puts pressure on the Asst. DAs who actually try cases, but your average prosecutor is just gaining experience until he can go into private practice and make real money as a defense attorney.

But people don't become lawyers because they have no egos. Like anyone, they care about public perception of their job performance; unfortunately, that perception is often based--simplistically--on win/loss records. I doubt human nature is so very different in Europe.

To wit, in the U.S., federal prosecutors are appointed. I've never heard anyone suggest they care less about their trial records.

 

[Nova]

In this sense, America has an inferior, unethical system. Yuck.

Don't take otto too literally. He's advancing arguments to support his case, not quoting independent studies.

If Perugia is any example, European prosecutors are at least as concerned with their records and reputations as U.S. DAs.

 

[Nova]

I've tried to read all of the posts here but I have a question that may or may not have already been answered. If this has been answered can someone please point me to the post or posts that answer it, please and thank you. So my question is this..........what evidence is there that puts AK and RG in the room that MK was murdered in? Other than the supposed bra clasp dna that was left to sit on the floor for an extended period of time before it was decided to possibly be evidence.

Welcome to the discussion. IMO, there is little to no evidence that AK or RS were in the room when MK was killed. In fact, there is no evidence that either was in the building that night.

That is why ILE and the prosecution had to "create" evidence with the steak knife and the bra clasp. We may be headed toward the appellate court throwing both items out, so we'll see what happens then.

Also I would like to know how could AK and RG have cleaned up anything that had their dna or prints on in the room that MK was found in but to have still had so much dna and prints of RS that did not get cleaned up? That sounds to me like something that is not even close to being possible. And if no dna or prints of AK and RG were not found in that room then how could they possibly have been involved?

You've reversed the initials, which is easy to do with this case. There is plenty of RG's DNA and prints all over the body and the murder room. Nobody can answer how AK could have cleaned up her own DNA and that of RS while leaving RG's behind. Because, of course, she couldn't.

One other thing. Yes, AK and RG were found guilty by a jury however the case against them would have never have gotten that far except for Mignini making his snap decision that they were in fact guilty. IMO Mignini was like a dog with a bone that refused to give it up. Even when the evidence clearly pointed to another person it was still decided that AK and RG had to have had something to do with it as well so let's make up a story that makes it fit. If the evidence is not the only thing that determines who the police and prosecutors look at then of course there will be people questioning the actions and decisions of those doing the accusing.

Lots of us agree with you here. Although ideas vary as to why ILE and Mignini because obsessed with AK, I don't think anyone here believes they are knowingly framing innocent persons (out of "anti-Americanism" or any other motivation). Rather, many of us believe they developed tunnel vision and focused on AK early on, and have since refused to admit they could be wrong.

We've seen the same thing in cases in the U.S. Unfortunately.

 

[SMK]

Don't take otto too literally. He's advancing arguments to support his case, not quoting independent studies.

If Perugia is any example, European prosecutors are at least as concerned with their records and reputations as U.S. DAs.

Oh, OK. Well, I believe justice should hold supremacy over egos and reputations, but perhaps not too realistic....