Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #12

[Allusonz]

Italy slipped back into the Partly Free category with free speech limited by courts and libel laws, increased intimidation of journalists by organized crime and far-right groups, and concerns over the concentration of media ownership. Greece also suffered a significant decline

Fragile Freedoms: Declines in Israel, Italy and Taiwan illustrate that established democracies with traditionally open media are not immune to restricting media freedom. Over the last five years, a number of emerging democracies have also suffered considerable declines in press freedom including: Mexico, Argentina, Peru, Thailand, the Philippines and Senegal

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=70&release=811

 

[Allusonz]

I agree. And also, Hendry claims that as an accident reconstruction engineer, he often worked from photographs. It may not be the ideal, but it is not completely without a foundation. I too wish the prosecution had had an expert write out a detailed report on the stage break in, and present it.

As well in those accidents many probably dealt with individuals that died. Thus I do chuckle at those that try to discredit him

 

[Nova]

The reason his testimony was not accepted is that he was merely a ballistics expert not a "rock throwing" expert according to the Motivational Report

Please try to not make my eyes roll so far back in my head.

My mother said they might get stuck that way.

 

[Allusonz]

I'm open to the possibility that Hendry could be wrong. After all, he was forced to work from the photos available. Even HE says he didn't have all the info he would have liked.

But it doesn't not appear that ILE assigned any forensic expert of their own to the issue of the break in. They simply saw a bit of glass on top of something (and didn't even bother to take careful photos of what was underneath the clothing) and made their decision.

This is Don Knotts of Mayberry work at best.

Other than video tapping how she died these reconstructions are exactly that. Hendry even acknowledges in various parts of his reconstruction that there are more than one possibility and when I last looked at it he stated the alternative so he was being totally upfront

 

[Nova]

The reason his testimony was not accepted is that he was merely a ballistics expert not a "rock throwing" expert according to the Motivational Report

Please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but did the prosecution put on a "rock throwing" expert? If so, I haven't heard a word about it.

At this point, I can't decide whether Perugia courts are merely incompetent or actually corrupt. Seems like a close call.

 

[sherlockh]

You make it sound as if there have already been appeal trials and independent experts who have reviewed the case and deemed the guilty verdict just. Don't get ahead of yourself. The first appeal trial has just started and so has the first independent expert verification of the evidence and so far it's been the opposite of any sort of validation of the evidence.

Snipped for space. The main trial is over. The appeal trial is just a short version. RG finished all his trials and appeals. In none of them it was concluded that the bathmat print was his. That you want me to look with my own eyes instead of listening to the print experts analysis makes me laugh so hard...lol...What is the point really?

The footprints were all concluded to have been made in blood. Read the report for a change instead of the conspiracy forums. You yell at me for what? It is considered very rude. You 'forgot' to say the blood test was the confirming test and far less sensitive than the initial luminol test. The DNA expert explained very simple and direct that this means there wasn't enough blood for the test to be positive. That doesn't mean it wasn't blood. All explained by the expert and in the judges report. So again what is the point in making up these theories? Just for fun?

Why do I think there was no prints in the murder room? Because they walked away? How about that? Just like RG got towels first without leaving any prints. You can actually stab someone without leaving any footprints. It has been done before. The floor is not instantly covered in blood. Just look where RG left his prints. It was very close to the body. An alternative could be that they wiped a print or 2 but I am not sure about that. I don't really agree with Massei but more with Mignini. I think the luminol prints occurred during the cleanup and that they were all wearing shoes at first, but that is just speculation.

There has been several trials all together and people have moved on. Lets drop the conspiracies and excuses for a change and lets look at the current appeals. Apparently you got your hopes up so good luck with that JMO of course.

 

[Nova]

Other than video tapping how she died these reconstructions are exactly that. Hendry even acknowledges in various parts of his reconstruction that there are more than one possibility and when I last looked at it he stated the alternative so he was being totally upfront

Exactly, which is what makes him more credible than the "absolute certainty" of ILE and Mignini.

But some people are reassured when folks claim infallibility, even though they must know better.

 

[Allusonz]

@ Otto: When I first heard about this case in 2008, and heard reports that :
1. the break-in was staged
2. there was a strong smell of bleach
3. clothes had been put in the washing machine
4. Knox and Sollecito had been holding a mop, and seemed chagrined at the arrival of the Postal police
5. AK and RS had failed to call 112 until after they lied and said they already had
6. AK resented her flat mate MK almost to the point of hatred
7. A shop owner had come forward saying Amanda had been there in the wee hours of that morning, buying cleaning supplies.
ETC., ETC. , I had no problem believing they were guilty, and assumed the wheels of the Italian courts would grind swiftly toward justice. I even wrote quasi-Freudian blog posts speculating that Amanda may have been sexually abused, and Raffaele as well, and they were striking back at "the mother" who had "set them up for it" in Meredith. In my theory, Mignini was "the good father" that both of them had been missing, and his arresting them was a kind of "liberation" for them. In my excitement, I assigned to Mignini the role of the "Neo-Classic Father Archetype" whom all of Generation X was secretly starved for.
Imagine, then, my horror, when points 1-7, one by one, went hurtling down into nothing. I had to delete all my blog posts; I had to temper my admiration for "Father Mignini"; I had to start to imagine that this Freudian fairy-tale was not so enchanting as I had imagined. Do not imagine for a moment that I enjoyed turning on Mignini. He still haunts me.

I truly owe the people believing in her guilt a thank you. If not for them so many of the absurd beliefs, explanations, and continued repeating of false facts has only confirmed my belief that AK and RS were in no way involved

 

[Allusonz]

Snipped for space. The main trial is over. The appeal trial is just a short version. RG finished all his trials and appeals. In none of them it was concluded that the bathmat print was his. That you want me to look with my own eyes instead of listening to the print experts analysis makes me laugh so hard...lol...What is the point really?

The footprints were all concluded to have been made in blood. Read the report for a change instead of the conspiracy forums. You yell at me for what? It is considered very rude. You 'forgot' to say the blood test was the confirming test and far less sensitive than the initial luminol test. The DNA expert explained very simple and direct that this means there wasn't enough blood for the test to be positive. That doesn't mean it wasn't blood. All explained by the expert and in the judges report. So again what is the point in making up these theories? Just for fun?

Why do I think there was no prints in the murder room? Because they walked away? How about that? Just like RG got towels first without leaving any prints. You can actually stab someone without leaving any footprints. It has been done before. The floor is not instantly covered in blood. Just look where RG left his prints. It was very close to the body. An alternative could be that they wiped a print or 2 but I am not sure about that. I don't really agree with Massei but more with Mignini. I think the luminol prints occurred during the cleanup and that they were all wearing shoes at first, but that is just speculation.

There has been several trials all together and people have moved on. Lets drop the conspiracies and excuses for a change and lets look at the current appeals. Apparently you got your hopes up so good luck with that JMO of course.

I rest my case as per my previous post

 

[Allusonz]

Please try to not make my eyes roll so far back in my head.

My mother said they might get stuck that way.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Allusonz]

The evidence has not yet fallen to dust, but that may well happen. Thus far, three points of evidence are being reviewed under appeal. DNA has been tested, and there are problems with retesting because there simply is nothing left of the two reviewed samples to test. Will that mean that the original DNA results will be removed from the evidence list, or will that mean that the original DNA results will be upheld? I don't know ... but I suspect we'll have to wait until the fall to find the answer. Until it falls to dust, it still stands as evidence in the case justifying the jury's finding of guilt.

Yes it has. It simply has not been presented to the court. The original findings will be invalidated as Stephanoni performed LCN DNA tests in a regular environment. As Dr. Greg Hampikian has stated

“‘It's looking in an area of the results where the machine's really not accurate unless you've specially trained your machines to work in that range - and I don't think there's evidence that they've done that in this case.’ His reports weren't allowed in the trial because the judge didn't want foreign forensic reports. But the lawyers were able to use the unique points from their reports in their arguments. That helped to result in the new DNA testing that the appeals court judge has ordered.”

“‘It's a pretty simple story. If they waited for the DNA first, they would have solved this quickly without any kind of mess.’ Instead, he says the investigators stuck to their gut feelings. ‘Nothing wrong with a gut feeling--for an investigation. But when the DNA speaks, you've got to put away the gut feeling if it's wrong. They didn't do that in this case.’”

http://www.kivitv.com/story/14477893/amanda-knox-is-innocent-says-bsu-researcher

 

[Allusonz]

Please, please correct me if I'm wrong, but did the prosecution put on a "rock throwing" expert? If so, I haven't heard a word about it.

At this point, I can't decide whether Perugia courts are merely incompetent or actually corrupt. Seems like a close call.

No they I guess could not find one or a ballistic expert. Instead they relied on the memory of FR, her bf, and general observations made by a couple of ILE (from their memory) :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

Similarly, an over zealous prosecutor can be thrown out. My fear with lifelong positions - Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

BBM

I am not sure whom posted it but I must agree that I am becomming very leary of how LE in general around the world is operating.

Any system must have checks and balances

 

[Allusonz]

Ok the rubber straw hats are finished!!! wasnt and the rest of the gang hope you enjoy them :giggle:

 

[wasnt_me]

Interesting new (May 16th, 2011) article: "Amanda Knox trial blogger silenced by Google"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...enced-by-google/2011/05/16/AFofFp4G_blog.html

I can't imagine what this will do for Mignini's own appeal.

 

[otto]

I see your points, Otto, and they are extremely well taken. However, you forget 2 things in this case:
1. Mignini had already announced all to the press, and would have suffered a terrible embarassment if he had backpedaled.
2. After the MOF indictment and convictions, the temptation on Mignini's part must have been VERY strong, to prove that THIS time, he really HAD caught sex killers, and been correct about his orgy theories.

It seems that you are making the assumption that if someone make a mistake early in the investigation, that they prefer to compound that mistake with more mistakes rather than step forward and declare that a mistake was made. The fact that Patrick was arrested, held for 2 weeks and released supports the belief that if a mistake is made, it is corrected rather than compounded with additional mistakes. That is, there is absolutely no reason to believe that investigators would continue to focus on a suspect after that suspect had been cleared - regardless of what was published by media.

I don't know what a MOF indictment is.

 

[wasnt_me]

I have always held the believe, based on my understanding of the circumstances of the murder of Meredith Kercher, that this was borderline thrill kill. Knox and Sollecito both have some aspects of their personalities that tend to the very dark side. Together, that dark side may have been the bond that grew. I think it's possible that they included Guede because he may have had some drugs, and I think that going to the cottage with Rude (rather than Sollecto's apt) was because that was a place where Amanda was familiar with indulging her drug abuse. I think it's quite possible that on the Night of the Dead, Sollecito (who still suffered emotional problems regarding his mother's death - see his online blogs) and Knox decided to explore hard drugs (for which Sollecito had prior documented use). Knox was the common bond between Sollecito and Guede, and as a manipulative person (see Berlin myspace notes), they would have been vulnerable to female manipulations due to the mutual absence of a strong female roll model in their lives.

The rest is history.

At what point in this story do they drop by RS's to pick up the 16 inch knife? Why dont they just use one of RS's smaller knives from his collection?

When and how do they meet up with RG that day?

Weren't these two drug tested? I could be mistaken, but if so, what drugs are hardcore yet don't stay in your system for 5 days when you get drug tested by the police?

I'm sure I'll have more questions about this theory you base upon the evidence.

 

[wasnt_me]

Regarding HIV positive tests and from personal experience with my daughter following a blood transfusion it is MANDATORY to list the people you have come in contact with sexually.

It is a harrowing time waiting for the followup test results which take approx 2 weeks. To downplay what anyone goes through whether it be HIV, cancer results etc is heartless

ETA It does not stop with sexual partners it includes the families they have been in contact with. in her case the school was notified, friends of hers were notified this was before the actual test results were returned as the donor had been diagnosed. The only saving grace is that they had 2 blood supplies on hand and she did not receive from the person which had HIV

WOW. So sorry that ALMOST happened to you over a 50/50 chance, nonetheless.

 

[wasnt_me]

Two points re this post:

1. Again we've gone to the land of unicorns and cotton-candy rainbows. DNA precludes tunnel vision? Obviously not, as the Perugia case is a classic example of a decision reached via tunnel vision following by an attempt to get the DNA evidence to confirm the decision already reached.

2. I've yet to hear from any forensic expert that the break-in was staged. It's unfortunate Hendry had to work from photos, true, but he remains more of an expert than anyone presented by ILE. Filomena the helpful roommate is not an expert on shattering glass.

I might almost agree with Otto on the DNA tunnel vision avoidance, except, in this case, DNA tests were improperly done. We already know for a fact that the lab expert used an untested means, with no controls, and there is now no DNA left to go back over what she did. We know that it is also illegal to do so in Italy, but they claim the defendents agreed to it by not showing up to witness the test. I have no idea why they didn't show up, but there was something I read that said the stipulation was for them to show up and then the test could be performed using this newly created means.

In any event,

No, FR is not an expert on glass spatter, should not have been allowed to roam freely in the room altering the crime scene, so that we NEVER have definitive answers on how it first looked. Wish AK and Rs had the foresight to photograph things themselves while awaiting the police, but they might have been accused of doctoring photos.

 

[otto]

Your theory is well thought out and more believable than all I've read about a sex orgy gone wrong. Bringing in "the Night of the Dead" is most interesting.

If I were on the jury, and you were the prosecutor, you certainly would have gotten my attention with this as your opening statement!

Now what needs to be done is to show that AK and RS were in the room with MK - blood smeared in the room with their finger prints, foot prints, bodily fluid, something unique to the night of the crime, but not DNA that could have migrated onto things since AK, RS had use of the cottage. Also would be helpful - any marks or busing on AK or RS.

Regarding Knox DNA in the cottage and in Meredith's bedroom, much has been said. If Knox DNA is in the bedroom, or indeed anywhere in the cottage, it is immediately dismissed because Knox lived in the cottage. If it's not in the bedroom or the cottage, the question is how is it possible that there was such a clean up that all of Knox DNA, except for that evidence which was introduced in court, could have been cleaned up? Who knows. I don't know why Knox's sheets were not checked for DNA. If there was no Knox DNA there, it is very suspicious. Knox had just had a shower. Was there truly no DNA from Knox in the shower? Knox DNA should have been in the kitchen. Was it thoroughly check for DNA, or was the kitchen not considered the crime scene and not carefully tested for Knox DNA. What about the large bathroom. Knox reported that she used the blow dryer in that bathroom. Why wasn't her DNA in that room ... not a hair or spec of DNA? Was there Knox DNA in Meredith's bedroom but it was not collected, or was it not there? Not a hair or spec of Knox DNA in the entire room or cottage (other than evidence introduced in court)? Really? What does that mean? In the Brad Cooper case, the absence of incriminating DNA meant nothing. Other evidence convicted him of 1st degree murder. No murder weapon, no DNA evidence, nothing but a bunch of lies he told and circumstantial evidence ... and he'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Why is the same set of circumstances okay in North Carolina, but not okay in Perugia?

Suppose three people attack one person. The person being attacked will be easily restrained, especially if a knife is present. In fact, upon seeing a knife, someone may initially cooperate. Possibly during an assault, there is a struggle, but it's not likely that the victim will be able to inflict much in the way of injuries to the attackers when restrained by three people. Brad Cooper had no injuries and there was no evidence of a struggle either, but he was guilty of murder.

I think the argument introduced by Knox parents is weak, but many people have taken it as crucial in her defense. Early on they claimed that there was no DNA in the entire cottage, so she must be innocent. I don't see it that way.