Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[otto]

Because Amanda Knox has been charged BY MIGNINI with slandering ILE in her account of that night's interrogations. How could Mignini possibly forget what he did that night?

He couldn't have done that without a complaint from the offended parties. Police filed a complaint, the prosecutor was compelled to bring it forth. She has been charged by the justice system for an offense against the reputations of police throughout the country - as that is the result of letting stand false allegations: such as slapping around witnesses.

 

[otto]

Ummmm....:waitasec: Because Mignini had originally said Amanda wielded the knife and the fatal wound, and now he is suggesting she may have been calling directions from down the hall????????

Sure, why not. I have no idea about the context of this interview statement. If it was in response to a question about how his theory matches with Amanda covering her ears, sure ... whatever ... maybe in the kitchen covering her ears. Does that make her innocent? ... not by a far stretch of the imagination.

 

[SMK]

Sure, why not. I have no idea about the context of this interview statement. If it was in response to a question about how his theory matches with Amanda covering her ears, sure ... whatever ... maybe in the kitchen covering her ears. Does that make her innocent? ... not by a far stretch of the imagination.

No, but it is rather different from being the one who wielded the knife to make the fatal wound....

 

[otto]

No, but it is rather different from being the one who wielded the knife to make the fatal wound....

How so? The murder was not reported. If someone was standing in the kitchen and knew about the murder, but did nothing but cover up the crime ... is it that different?

 

[SMK]

How so? The murder was not reported. If someone was standing in the kitchen and knew about the murder, but did nothing but cover up the crime ... is it that different?

An accessory to murder is not quite the same as he who actually commits murder. I am inclined to believe Amanda was not there at ALL. But Mignini first places the knife in her hand, then says, well: Perhaps not.......

 

[otto]

An accessory to murder is not quite the same as he who actually commits murder. I am inclined to believe Amanda was not there at ALL. But Mignini first places the knife in her hand, then says, well: Perhaps not.......

He doesn't say "perhaps not" ... in an out of context statement well after the trial has ended, he apparently muses about alternative theories to the crime. So does everyone ... cuz no one that was there is talking.

That may well be true in some places, particularly if the person that wasn't holding the knife can barter for a reduced sentence in exchange for giving information. In Italy, it doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, if someone is present for a murder (per previous statements: orchestrated a murder from the kitchen) and then proceeds to cover up the crime ... well, is that less culpable than holding the knife? I think not. A good honest person doesn't orchestrate a murder, does help the victim, does call for help, does tell the truth and if not, is equally culpable.

Rudy was not alone - the evidence tells us that much.

 

[SMK]

He doesn't say "perhaps not" ... in an out of context statement well after the trial has ended, he apparently muses about alternative theories to the crime. So does everyone ... cuz no one that was there is talking.

That may well be true in some places, particularly if the person that wasn't holding the knife can barter for a reduced sentence in exchange for giving information. In Italy, it doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, if someone is present for a murder (per previous statements: orchestrated a murder from the kitchen) and then proceeds to cover up the crime ... well, is that less culpable than holding the knife? I think not. A good honest person doesn't orchestrate a murder, does help the victim, does call for help, does tell the truth and if not, is equally culpable.

Rudy was not alone - the evidence tells us that much.

The evidence might suggest Guede was not alone. Many surmise that he was alone.

But you know, in the interrum between my last comment and this, I happened to watch the video of Amanda testifying with a translator at her side in court about being called "a stupid liar" and being slapped on the back of the head. And I received a very strong impression, regarding a couple of things. Maybe it will not seem relevant to you and others, but it does to me, so here goes, just some more grist for the mill:
1. She is addressing the court in English, in a very Seattle drawl. Very flat, American northwest accent, and somewhat annoyed and a bit scornful. This gives the impression not of a guilty person, but of a very annoyed and put out innocent one, who assumes the fiasco must surely be cleared up soon and has no idea the nightmare which awaits her. Again, if she wanted to lie, since there was no videotape, why not say she was punched in the stomach or raped? The " slapped twice" rings true.
2. She explains how they "shoved the cell phone in her face" with PL's text, and shouted, "See, liar, you were going to meet someone!". OK, if these cops are so smart, why did they have to get all excited over Patrick's text which in the end meant nothing? this makes them look bad. All in all, she seems self-righteous , but justifiably so.

 

[wasnt_me]

HUH? :waitasec: Where did you get that from? That's not what I said at all...

Seriously, am I not making any sense to people?

Your sense making is beyond reproach, but this same argument about these same things will keep coming up, because the proguilters will not ever concede the facts in this case. We've been saying the same things over and over and over and over and over again for at least the past 5 threads.

 

[SMK]

I was just looking at the PDF file of Aviello's letter to the judges. Then I came upon this piece of last year from Nadeau and the Daily Beast about Aviello's claims:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-11/amanda-knox-case-breakthrough-barbie-latza-nadeau-on-new-evidence/



Luciano Aviello’s testimony is compelling, even for this case which has hardly lacked surprising twists. On the night of Meredith’s murder, Luciano was living in Perugia and he says that his brother Antonio, who was staying with him, had come home in a panic. Antonio and an Albanian pal had been out stealing valuable paintings from neighborhood houses and had gotten an address wrong and ended up at Via Della Pergola No. 7, where Knox and Kercher were living with two Italian women at the time. Kercher was home alone, and Aviello says his brother and friend stabbed and killed her, but not without a fight.

His Albanian friend got scared and ran, and Antonio, himself affiliated with the Neapolitan Camorra, needed help. “That night Antonio came home with his jacket covered in blood. He had a wound on his right arm. He had a bloody knife and a set of keys,” according to a statement released by Knox’s lawyers to the Italian weekly women’s magazine Oggi.

“I helped him bury the blood-stained knife and the keys under dirt and stones beside the garden wall.” Knox’s attorneys speculated to Oggi that the keys were Meredith’s and the knife was the real murder weapon.. . . if his brother’s sensational claims are true, it would answer a few of the great mysteries of this case.

• In fact, Meredith’s keys have never been found and the knife with Knox’s DNA on the handle and what the prosecution claimed was Kercher’s on the blade has long been disputed as the actual murder weapon. Kercher’s DNA was too small to double-test and the knife is the wrong size to have left all three wounds on Kercher’s neck.
• Antonio Aviello is nowhere to be found and authorities in Perugia have so far not issued a warrant for his arrest, nor have they searched him out for questioning. But if his brother’s sensational claims are true, it would answer a few of the great mysteries of this case.
• After all, there were 19 unidentified fingerprints in Kercher’s bedroom. Many of them were smudged and incomplete, and the prosecution has always hypothesized that they belong to Knox and Sollecito. In theory, they could belong to Antonio and his Albanian friend. A bloody footprint left on the pillow under Kercher’s body has long-been a point of contention between the prosecution and defense in this case.
• It was never matched to any of the suspect’s known shoes, so it could, in theory, have been left by these mystery assailants
• Rudy Guede, who has always claimed to have been in the bathroom when someone else was killing Meredith, did initially say he saw an unknown Italian man. He later said it was Sollecito, but it would be interesting to show him a photo of Antonio Aviello now to see what he says.

.

 

[otto]

The evidence might suggest Guede was not alone. Many surmise that he was alone.

But you know, in the interrum between my last comment and this, I happened to watch the video of Amanda testifying with a translator at her side in court about being called "a stupid liar" and being slapped on the back of the head. And I received a very strong impression, regarding a couple of things. Maybe it will not seem relevant to you and others, but it does to me, so here goes, just some more grist for the mill:
1. She is addressing the court in English, in a very Seattle drawl. Very flat, American northwest accent, and somewhat annoyed and a bit scornful. This gives the impression not of a guilty person, but of a very annoyed and put out innocent one, who assumes the fiasco must surely be cleared up soon and has no idea the nightmare which awaits her. Again, if she wanted to lie, since there was no videotape, why not say she was punched in the stomach or raped? The " slapped twice" rings true.
2. She explains how they "shoved the cell phone in her face" with PL's text, and shouted, "See, liar, you were going to meet someone!". OK, if these cops are so smart, why did they have to get all excited over Patrick's text which in the end meant nothing? this makes them look bad. All in all, she seems self-righteous , but justifiably so.

Rudy was wearing his shoes throughout the murder. There are no barefoot prints from Rudy in Meredith's bedroom, in the hallway, or in the bathroom. His shoe prints are found in the bedroom and hallway. He did not attempt to hide his presence at the cottage and was in fact sloppy with leaving his evidence (toilet). He most certainly did not clean up his bloody barefoot prints to and from the bathmat. Furthermore, the bath print is too wide for his narrow foot.

Are we to believe that Rudy stepped in the blood, removed his shoes, hopped over to the mat on one non-bloody foot, when he was there he put his blood foot on the matt without touching the floor, picked up the towels, hopped back to the bedroom, put on his shoes without leaving barefoot bloody prints, and then sprinted out the front door?

Amanda has learned that it is not reasonable to claim that she was deprived of food and water and beaten between 11:30 PM and 1:45 AM so she falsely accused an innocent man of murder. It took her family quite a while to get this ... with even Edda withholding the information from police.

Maybe it's just me, but if someone were doing that to me in a police station, I would stop talking ... but of course, Amanda was young and helpful ... right down to whopper lies for which she is now sorry. What was happening: everyone was yelling at her, she didn't have an interpreter, she did have an interpreter, police were slapping her around, she is unable to identify the person that slapped her around, the questioning lasted 54 hours, the questioning lasted 2 hours 15 minutes, the interpreter was able to translate but she worked for the police, the translation was in perfect English signed by Knox, she may have said that she was hungry and thirty but the police delayed (she'd had something to eat and drink at 10 PM), at 1:45 AM she signed a statement accusing Patrick of murder - reiterating this statement for the prosecutor and again signing at 5:45 AM. She then stands by her statements about Patrick in a voluntary "gift" statement. She and her mother remain silent about Patrick's innocence until he is able to prove an alibi, and then express relief because Patrick is released from prison.

 

[SMK]

Rudy was wearing his shoes throughout the murder. There are no barefoot prints from Rudy in Meredith's bedroom, in the hallway, or in the bathroom. His shoe prints are found in the bedroom and hallway. He did not attempt to hide his presence at the cottage and was in fact sloppy with leaving his evidence (toilet). He most certainly did not clean up his bloody barefoot prints to and from the bathmat. Furthermore, the bath print is too wide for his narrow foot.

Are we to believe that Rudy stepped in the blood, removed his shoes, hopped over to the mat on one non-bloody foot, when he was there he put his blood foot on the matt without touching the floor, picked up the towels, hopped back to the bedroom, put on his shoes without leaving barefoot bloody prints, and then sprinted out the front door?

No, but what if the footprints are from BEFORE the murder? How can you date a footprint?

 

[wasnt_me]

Hands SV a straight jacket with special pockets for your multi-coloured candy :giggle:

He can borrow my seal-donkey whenever he wants. He's earned it!

:bananalama:

 

[wasnt_me]

"finding 1: present in the bedroom of Amanda Knox; this is the print of right foot, most likely imprinted in a deposit of haematic substance, in which are clearly visible (cf. attached [to the report], following perspective correction): the big toe or 1st toe (which measures 22mm in width); the 3rd toe or middle toe (17mm in length); the metatarsus (80mm wide); a portion of the plantar arch. This finding was considered useful for negative comparisons and the comparison led the technicians to express an opinion of compatibility with Amanda Knox’s right foot"

Within their experts opinions, and the fact that the prints left by Rudy (who admitted being there at the time of the murder) were similarly described, I think its fair to assume the experts are correct.

If the experts are mistaken about prints for Knox and Sollecito, then they are also mistaken about the prints and evidence used to convict Rudy. If Knox, Sollecito and Guede were not involved in the murder ... then who?

"Most likely" does not = "definitely."

The experts ARE mistaken about RG's footprint. His BARE footprint on the bathmat. They already have EXACT match on his shoeprints.

 

[wasnt_me]

2. She explains how they "shoved the cell phone in her face" with PL's text, and shouted, "See, liar, you were going to meet someone!". OK, if these cops are so smart, why did they have to get all excited over Patrick's text which in the end meant nothing? this makes them look bad. All in all, she seems self-righteous , but justifiably so.

It must have happened that way because I can't imagine she just volunteered the info about PL's text, or right off the bat volunteered the statement she'd made about him. If so, no one would have been there until 545am.

According to Mig, they were simply questioning her about why RS's statement no longer supporter her. She probably swore, "this is how it happened." and then said "See the text I got while at Rs's, it's from PL telling me not to go ito work." Then they see the "see you later" and all hell breaks loose.

 

[otto]

I was just looking at the PDF file of Aviello's letter to the judges. Then I came upon this piece of last year from Nadeau and the Daily Beast about Aviello's claims:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-11/amanda-knox-case-breakthrough-barbie-latza-nadeau-on-new-evidence/



Luciano Aviello’s testimony is compelling, even for this case which has hardly lacked surprising twists. On the night of Meredith’s murder, Luciano was living in Perugia and he says that his brother Antonio, who was staying with him, had come home in a panic. Antonio and an Albanian pal had been out stealing valuable paintings from neighborhood houses and had gotten an address wrong and ended up at Via Della Pergola No. 7, where Knox and Kercher were living with two Italian women at the time. Kercher was home alone, and Aviello says his brother and friend stabbed and killed her, but not without a fight.

His Albanian friend got scared and ran, and Antonio, himself affiliated with the Neapolitan Camorra, needed help. “That night Antonio came home with his jacket covered in blood. He had a wound on his right arm. He had a bloody knife and a set of keys,” according to a statement released by Knox’s lawyers to the Italian weekly women’s magazine Oggi.

“I helped him bury the blood-stained knife and the keys under dirt and stones beside the garden wall.” Knox’s attorneys speculated to Oggi that the keys were Meredith’s and the knife was the real murder weapon.. . . if his brother’s sensational claims are true, it would answer a few of the great mysteries of this case.

• In fact, Meredith’s keys have never been found and the knife with Knox’s DNA on the handle and what the prosecution claimed was Kercher’s on the blade has long been disputed as the actual murder weapon. Kercher’s DNA was too small to double-test and the knife is the wrong size to have left all three wounds on Kercher’s neck.
• Antonio Aviello is nowhere to be found and authorities in Perugia have so far not issued a warrant for his arrest, nor have they searched him out for questioning. But if his brother’s sensational claims are true, it would answer a few of the great mysteries of this case.
• After all, there were 19 unidentified fingerprints in Kercher’s bedroom. Many of them were smudged and incomplete, and the prosecution has always hypothesized that they belong to Knox and Sollecito. In theory, they could belong to Antonio and his Albanian friend. A bloody footprint left on the pillow under Kercher’s body has long-been a point of contention between the prosecution and defense in this case.
• It was never matched to any of the suspect’s known shoes, so it could, in theory, have been left by these mystery assailants
• Rudy Guede, who has always claimed to have been in the bathroom when someone else was killing Meredith, did initially say he saw an unknown Italian man. He later said it was Sollecito, but it would be interesting to show him a photo of Antonio Aviello now to see what he says.

.

Oggi? Wasn't that the magazine with the April Fools Joke?

So ... where did he bury the keys ... let's go dig them up? Or is that too simple - not enough of a mafeoso conspiracy?

I thought this was the guy with the pedophile brother in jail ... is this one of the other 5? I haven't paid much attention.

 

[otto]

No, but what if the footprints are from BEFORE the murder? How can you date a footprint?

The bathmat print can be dated, as can the prints made by Rudy's shoes running down the hallway. They were presumed to be made with blood, as were other footprints. The blood in the bathroom can be dated because Amanda said that the mixed DNA was not in the sink the day before.

 

[wasnt_me]

No, but what if the footprints are from BEFORE the murder? How can you date a footprint?

SMK, we've already gone over the logical theory as to how RG sat on the bed, took off his shoes, went to the bathroom, rinsed off in the shower, stepped on the mat ON HIS WAY OUT of the shower. Probably dried himself with the towels on that mat and took himself back in the murder room, where he put his shoes back on.

AK is the one who picked the bathmat up the next day and used it as a towel because no towels were in the bathroom. When she replaced it, she put it back with the footprint facing the shower instead of facing the door.

This would explain why she might possibly kind of, maybe had low nonexistent "Heamatic" substance on her feet (from the bathmat and the shower stall) and it would explain how any of MK's dna might could maybe almost have gotten into AK's room. If the bathmat was in taken to her room. If she wakled on that bathmat, walked OVER RG's already laid down prints in the corridor, this could account for her getting any kind of "traces" on her feet.

What I'd like to know is:

1. How did RS's 12 inch blade, 4 inch handle knife get to the cottage for an unintentional, unpremeditated murder?

2. How did it get out of the cottage and clean, back in the drawer without leaving blood and dna etc in someone's sink?

3. Why did it get cleaned and returned to the drawer, but the bathmat with the blood print visible from outerspace got left on the floor in plain sight?

4. Why, if AK and RS are working SO hard to clean ONLY traces of them from the crime scene do they leave the biggest, bloodiest print of all in the bathroom?

They really have to feel like fools for working THAT hard to clean EVERy single trace of them off of MK and out of her room, but then leave that print on that bathmat like that.

And indeed, they did work every hard because in RG's case they said his DNA was on the cuff of her sweater, indicating that RG had held her right hand down as her left was fighting him. So if AK and RS were also holding MK down, that means they somehow were able to get their DNA EVEN off MK's clothes, but leave RG's on the clothes.

Dooop! Except the one little half, maybe possibly could be RS's dna on that metal bra clasp hook.

That's amazing, man.

 

[otto]

SMK, we've already gone over the logical theory as to how RG sat on the bed, took off his shoes, went to the bathroom, rinsed off in the shower, stepped on the mat ON HIS WAY OUT of the shower. Probably dried himself with the towels on that mat and took himself back in the murder room, where he put his shoes back on.

AK is the one who picked the bathmat up the next day and used it as a towel because no towels were in the bathroom. When she replaced it, she put it back with the footprint facing the shower instead of facing the door.

<snipped for emphasis>

That's quite the story about Rudy. So are their prints from him barefoot and shoed beside the bed? I certainly have not read that anywhere.

If Rudy showered, why did he smell so bad at the disco?

Amanda did the bathmat boogie, she didn't wrap herself in the bathmat - she didn't use it like a towel.

 

[wasnt_me]

read what I said.

Rinsed off does NOT = showered.

Sorry if you didn't get a chance to read that theory. Not my fault or problem.

I don't speak in proguilt language. I dn't know why you call it bathmat boogie, but that sounds extremely childish. AK said she used it as a towel because there were no towels.

You can reveal your theory as to how RS hopped his way into the bathroom, though.

Oh, and I might or might not continue to respond, depends on how passionate I feel about it It's not very easy having to keep repeating oneself again and again and again and again, when we have pages upon pages of you saying the exact same stuff to me as if I never explained it to you before.

 

[otto]

It must have happened that way because I can't imagine she just volunteered the info about PL's text, or right off the bat volunteered the statement she'd made about him. If so, no one would have been there until 545am.

According to Mig, they were simply questioning her about why RS's statement no longer supporter her. She probably swore, "this is how it happened." and then said "See the text I got while at Rs's, it's from PL telling me not to go ito work." Then they see the "see you later" and all hell breaks loose.

Police had cell phone records by the time the pair were questioned on Nov 5.

What is Mig? Has the discussion deteriorated to making fun of people's names?

What she swore that night is that Patrick murdered Meredth ... she made the statement, signed the statement, repeated the statement after the prosecutor arrived, signed that statement, after her arrest, she wrote it again. That's what she swore to that night and all hell did break loose.