Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #13

[Malkmus]

Malk, Do you really believe:

1- RG would tell anyone that AK and RS were innocent while being held for murder that they were suspected of? Why would he not say the same now?

2- A child-killer would have ANYTHING worthwhile to present in court?

3- Why if true what he claims... has nobody picked up the keys/knife?

1. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented for an inmate to do. The key will be whether anything they have to say is "new" and fits the evidence.

2. Anyone in a prison has shaky morals. It doesn't mean that they are always lying about everything. As with Curatolo, his testimony will either sink or swim depending on how consistent and credible his story is.

3. I don't have enough details about the how and why of the keys/knife story to know what they have attempted to find or what specific information they have to go on, or what the legality of doing so is.

 

[Malkmus]

Well quit picking on me... I might get a complex or something.

Haha, Okay, sorry it comes off that way. It isn't intentional.

 

[Nova]

I agree. It is all very suspicious.
1. RG MAY have said in an "off" moment that they were not there, but if true, he obviously is no friend of theirs, or he would do what Luciano Aviello did: write letters to all proclaiming the truth. Guede has nothing to offer. He will deny, deny, deny.
2. A child-killer is not going to carry much weight, no.
3. Right. Unless something horrific has happened, such as Mignini going and getting them and hiding them away ( I would hope he would not do anything of the kind) this is probably a wild goose chase. This Luciano has been talking since 2007. Where are these items? Were they ever there? Were they taken? Something tells me they will not be found, for whatever reason.

Either the defense attorneys are now "crazy like foxes" or just plain crazy.

1. I think RG may have reason to believe his treatment in prison would suffer if he spoke out to exonerate AK and RS. I don't believe RG is so generous.

2. I don't know that a child-killer is necessarily a liar. He also isn't a saint, obviously, but I wouldn't reject something he said without hearing it and noting any corroboration. As Malkmus pointed out, the drug dealer wasn't discredited because he sold drugs, but because his recollections were incoherent and just plain wrong.

3. I can see ILE deciding not to look for buried keys and knife unless compelled to do so by the court. Why complicate what ILE believes to be an open and shut case? If the keys and knife were found, the next question would be how did they get there and did they somehow come from one of the accused defendants? At the very least, this possibility means a lot more work for ILE.

 

[SMK]

Wow! That would take Mignini to a degree of corruption I haven't even considered as yet.

I am hoping he would not do that. There is a core of good to him, and I believe the ones who truly are set against Amanda are Napoleani and --I get the names mixed up. But women are often the more devious and hateful. So maybe they would do so.... Let us hope not.

 

[Allusonz]

1. I think RG may have reason to believe his treatment in prison would suffer if he spoke out to exonerate AK and RS. I don't believe RG is so generous.

2. I don't know that a child-killer is necessarily a liar. He also isn't a saint, obviously, but I wouldn't reject something he said without hearing it and noting any corroboration. As Malkmus pointed out, the drug dealer wasn't discredited because he sold drugs, but because his recollections were incoherent and just plain wrong.

3. I can see ILE deciding not to look for buried keys and knife unless compelled to do so by the court. Why complicate what ILE believes to be an open and shut case? If the keys and knife were found, the next question would be how did they get there and did they somehow come from one of the accused defendants? At the very least, this possibility means a lot more work for ILE.

I would also like to add to your list that by doing this it shows that this is simply the job of the defense when information comes to light.

It also does not put the defense's case backwards it simply shows that ILE did not properly follow up this information which again shows the tunnel vision they had with respect to AK and RS.

It is not that the prosecution did not know about these guys they instead chose not to check it out when they should of investigated all leads and instead most of this has instead been left to the defense to followup on. It actually presents ILE in an even poorer light

 

[Allusonz]

Link where Nick Pisa says the prosecution case is crumbling

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#43134180

 

[Allusonz]

Wow! That would take Mignini to a degree of corruption I haven't even considered as yet.

Yes it would and after rereading all these conversations I am of the opinion that he would go to any lengths needed if he did not like you

 

[Allusonz]

1. It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented for an inmate to do. The key will be whether anything they have to say is "new" and fits the evidence.

2. Anyone in a prison has shaky morals. It doesn't mean that they are always lying about everything. As with Curatolo, his testimony will either sink or swim depending on how consistent and credible his story is.

3. I don't have enough details about the how and why of the keys/knife story to know what they have attempted to find or what specific information they have to go on, or what the legality of doing so is.

I don't believe any of us do thus why are so many judging this so fast? They may actually have some information which is helpful. I am not banking on it but as you stated we do not have enough information with respect to what they have said.

Usually they testify for the prosecution for favours thus for them to be testifying for the defense does nothing for them

 

[Allusonz]

Straw Man Argument

Malkmus's is better

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/strawman.htm

 

[Allusonz]

Top Italian policemen get up to five years for violent attack on G8 protesters

Some of Italy's most senior police officers have been given jail sentences of up to five years for what the prosecution called a "terrible" attack on demonstrators at the 2001 G8 meeting in Genoa and an attempted cover-up.

Victims of the attack, who included several Britons, expressed delight at the ruling, which overturned many of the conclusions reached by the judges at the original trial in 2008. Mark Covell, aged 42, from Reading, who was beaten into a coma, said: "This is beyond my wildest expectations. The Italian judiciary has recognised the truth of what happened. Human rights have finally been respected here. Italians will now recognise their cops do not have immunity. But it has taken nine years, and I was at the end of my tether."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/19/g8-italian-police-sentenced

 

[Allusonz]

@OttoNo, Luciano Aviello is the mobster who looks about age 12, whose brother fled Perugia and has not been seen since. He insists he put Kercher's keys and a bloody knife in a hiding place in a garden wall, after his brother told him they had just killed a woman on Nov. 1. They should go see. If it is a lie, then forget about his testimony.....

If he indeed has this information which I seriously doubt he does, I would not think he would of disclosed the exact location as that would be his safety net

 

[Allusonz]

Who knows? If an Italian jury was allowed to hear testimony re "smooching" and "cartwheels" and actually considered it, maybe an Italian jury will actually find something worthwhile in wild tales that paint MK as a drug kingpin. (I know "kingpin" is my word; but I don't believe anyone spends $250K to hire a hit on a common street dealer.)

Dang!!! Could it carry any less weight? :giggle:

 

[Malkmus]

Straw Man Argument

A strawman is "an argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated." {American Heritage Dictionary, in TheFreeDictionary}

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/strawman.htm

That's an unusual definition. Typically, when I'm referring to it I mean this:

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Allusonz]

You have referred to AK and RS as "The lovebirds" among other nicknames. Why the sudden urgency to use only initials or full names when you haven't been doing the same?!

Bears repeating.

 

[Allusonz]

Which is why Mignini is now saying "maybe AK directed the murder from another room."

It appears this man is comming unglued at the seams or he already was :giggle:

 

[Nova]

Link where Nick Pisa says the prosecution case is crumbling

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#43134180

Interesting that Joe Tacopino claims there is growing opinion among Italians that the prosecutions of AK and RS were wrong and that his sources in ILE are now beginning to predict the convictions will be overturned. That seems more relevant than a lot of Americans talking about what we think over here.

On the other hand, Tacopino, who supposedly has a law practice in Italy, can't seem to pronounce Sollecito, so I have to wonder...

 

[SMK]

Link where Nick Pisa says the prosecution case is crumbling

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#43134180

Thanks for this link. All very positive. I tend to be not so much a pessimist, but rather, a person afraid of optimism ( I always think it "goeth before a fall"). So I am trying to temper all of this with what the other side is saying.

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks for this link. All very positive. I tend to be not so much a pessimist, but rather, a person afraid of optimism ( I always think it "goeth before a fall"). So I am trying to temper all of this with what the other side is saying.

I think most of us from the comments here are being very cautious with respect to everything being presented.

 

[Allusonz]

Interesting that Joe Tacopino claims there is growing opinion among Italians that the prosecutions of AK and RS were wrong and that his sources in ILE are now beginning to predict the convictions will be overturned. That seems more relevant than a lot of Americans talking about what we think over here.

On the other hand, Tacopino, who supposedly has a law practice in Italy, can't seem to pronounce Sollecito, so I have to wonder...

Not sure what to think of Tacopino. What I found more interesting was Nick Pisa's comments. Again just tossing things out as I come across it

 

[SMK]

I think Nick Pisa is partly correct when he says, "If the DNA is rejected, then the case falls apart. Where is your case without it?". However, there is also the prosecution's contention of the staged break-in, etc. ; and Micheli speaking of the covering of the body, the body's being possibly moved, and a "staging of rape". As someone put it: (And I do not believe this at all, but it is an example of the thinking of those who believe that the convictions should stand) : "As Micheli argued, only someone who had been present at the assault would know that she has been sexually assaulted and staged the crime as a rape. If Guede was the only assailant, why would he stage the body? why would he cover her body? why would he lock the bedroom door?" So then I have to wonder, will these kinds of thoughts come up with this independent panel of reviewers? Or are they to keep away from this kind of thinking, and only look specifically at the facts and data they are reviewing? I suppose I am still a bit confused re this....

ETA: I think Tapocino just seems overly Americanized, despite his Italian name and looks, and must have translators or others working his Italian practice....But he does raise hope, for certain.