Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #14

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  • #401
But......but............ :mad: .....:slap: surely you must see that there is at least some strange coincidence at work regarding Mignini being on the case? Or am I viewing the whole thing too much as literature...... ?? :waitasec: So to you, it would have been open and shut without Mignini? ........:razz:

Not open and shut, but VERY similar to what has actually taken place in the court room... not the internet bologna tho.

Mignini was on call that night, so no strange coincidence except he had a prior problem regarding the MOF stuff. But for me personally I wish he had been on vacation that day/night. You can see the same stuff pop up when anyone mentions the OTHER prosecutor... brushed off, no power, influenced by Mignini, doesn't want to rock the boat, etc... it's basically all that's left.
 
  • #402
Not open and shut, but VERY similar to what has actually taken place in the court room... not the internet bologna tho.

Mignini was on call that night, so no strange coincidence except he had a prior problem regarding the MOF stuff. But for me personally I wish he had been on vacation that day/night. You can see the same stuff pop up when anyone mentions the OTHER prosecutor... brushed off, no power, influenced by Mignini, doesn't want to rock the boat, etc... it's basically all that's left.
OK. so you are saying had Mignini been away on, say, a 2 week vacation during that period, the MOF stuff would not have been brought into the media, Doug Preston would not have opened a website about it, and rather than a sex game theory, they may have simply said "evidence of 3 at cottage. Evidence of some sex assault by Guede". And then the affirmations/counter- refutations would have been less sensational, on both sides? :seeya: so I am at least partly correct??:waitasec:
 
  • #403
Right on the mark! :rocker:
 
  • #404
  • #405
Came across this blog post by author Will Savive, and he believes as I suspected, that Judge Heavey's letter was not really meant to receive a response.

He also notes that the Judge did in fact get charged with judicial misconduct related to the Knox case:

So, what does the judge expect to accomplish from this letter? Does he expect to have Obama and his men call Italy and say, “Stop the trial, this farce has gone far enough, we are the United States, after all?” I don’t think so. In my opinion, this letter was written just for effect—as a way to gain more supporters for Amanda’s cause and to add another voice (albeit being a judge at least looks like a legitimate one) to the already overhyped Knox PR campaign. Surely he knows that this letter does nothing to warrant any U.S. intrusion into the case, particularly at this point in time.

Nonetheless, Judge Heavey was charged Tuesday (8 June 2011) by the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, (CJC) for speaking out in support of Amanda Knox, according to the West Seattle Herald. Judge Heavey is charged for having used court time, materials, and employees to draw up those letters. He wrote three letters to the prosecutors and a judge in that case in Perugia on County letterhead in 2008 while Knox was in prison awaiting trial.
http://willsavive.blogspot.com/2011/06/knox-in-news-seattle-judge-calls-on.html
 
  • #406
From today's Huffington Post:


Amanda Knox Appeal Being Followed
By Italian President Giorgio Napolitano


ROME -- Italy's president says he's following the case of American student Amanda Knox but can't intervene as she appeals her conviction on charges she murdered her British roommate.

President Giorgio Napolitano's diplomatic counselor responded to an Italian lawmaker who asked the head of state to intervene to avert controversies stemming from the case.[. . . ]The Justice Ministry hasn't responded to lawmaker Rocco Girlanda's request for an investigation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/14/amanda-knox-case-appeal-italy-president-giorgio-napolitano-_n_876558.html
 
  • #407
Isn't that the result you expected from Rocco's letter?
 
  • #408
  • #409
Yip. Just bored and posting......:coffeews::waiting:

Come over to the Jason Young trial thread. Slam in your :twocents: .
 
  • #410
Come over to the Jason Young trial thread. Slam in your :twocents: .
thanks for the invite, most appreciated, but: 1. do not know who Jason Young is :eek: and 2. just realized that while I was bored to tears and posting, clients were emailing me to get cracking on their work:panic: have a great day! :)
 
  • #411
North Carolina man accused of murdering wife- Michelle.

Have a good day, post with ya later.
 
  • #412
All of them. I don't want to get into yet another debate about whether Knox had an interpreter (or any of the other points for that matter), but Heavey should know that the interpreter testified in court and that Knox stated in court that she had an interpreter before he claims that Knox didn't have one. Everything he writes can be easily refuted.

Really?

11 PM to 5:45 AM is an all night interrogation. How is it not?

She was denied a lawyer, or is it your claim she was provided one?

She should have been recorded as a suspect.

The interpreter is the only gray area. Nova has explained (as have I in the past) what was wrong with the interpreter.

The points about Mignini are valid

ILE did leak false information that poisoned the well. This includes Leaking CCTV footage of a "a person" walking to the cottage the night of the murder, but declaring it to be Amanda. Leaking the famous Luminol-soaked bathroom, which was reported as blood-soaked by the press. Other "accidents" like matching Rudy's shoe prints to Raf and reporting it didn't help. And there's more than what I remember off the top of my head.
 
  • #413
Really?

11 PM to 5:45 AM is an all night interrogation. How is it not?

She was denied a lawyer, or is it your claim she was provided one?

She should have been recorded as a suspect.

The interpreter is the only gray area. Nova has explained (as have I in the past) what was wrong with the interpreter.

The points about Mignini are valid

ILE did leak false information that poisoned the well. This includes Leaking CCTV footage of a "a person" walking to the cottage the night of the murder, but declaring it to be Amanda. Leaking the famous Luminol-soaked bathroom, which was reported as blood-soaked by the press. Other "accidents" like matching Rudy's shoe prints to Raf and reporting it didn't help. And there's more than what I remember off the top of my head.

It wasn't continuous.

She wasn't due a lawyer until she went in front of the judge IIRC.

Wasn't a suspect until she accused Patrick of the murder.

There was an interpreter there, so she did have one.

The 'well' was perfectly fine as the Italian people are competant to not be 'poisoned' by salacious media reports and do the job they were required to do.
 
  • #414
It wasn't continuous.

Splitting hairs here, Fred. There was maybe approximately an hour break between when she signed the 1:45 statement and when Mignini intervened and continued the interrogation. That this possible break somehow makes it not an all-night affair is really stretching.

She wasn't due a lawyer until she went in front of the judge IIRC.

Nothing to do with her being denied a lawyer. She asked for one, she should have been provided with one.

Wasn't a suspect until she accused Patrick of the murder.

More hair-splitting. The half of the interrogation where she was interrogated as a suspect should have been recorded. Repeating that the first half as a witness didn't need to be recorded changes nothing about the interrogation as a suspect.

There was an interpreter there, so she did have one.

I agree that Heavey should have been more specific on this claim. It's more the role of the person appointed as interpreter that was a problem.

The 'well' was perfectly fine as the Italian people are competant to not be 'poisoned' by salacious media reports and do the job they were required to do.

That's just your opinion. The rest of the world agrees that leaking false information to the press is detrimental to a person's right to a fair trial.

The only point I can see that is possibly refutable is the no interpreter one, and only because of the wording. The rest is he is absolutely correct on. That you had to change the meaning of the rest of his points in an attempt to refute them isn't convincing.
 
  • #415
Where the letter is wrong is where it says that ILE broke Italian law. It didn't. Sure, they violated the EU human rights charter to shreds, but that's nothing new to Italy. As for Italian law itself, ILE pulled the same sleazy game played by LEAs that have jumped the shark all over the world - they made sure to follow the letter of the law even as they violated the intent of it.

Examples: The less than truthful press releases/leaks etc: AK & RS were only suspects at that point. ILE carefully held back from charging them until the last minute, which allowed for them to pull all sorts of shenanigans legally. This is one of many reasons why the EU human rights charter and that of the UN prohibit long detentions without charges. Of course, the US is not exactly in a good position to be pointing this out after the GITMO mess.

The translator: It is standard practice when questioning foreign suspects to attain a translator from the person's embassy. Officially, AK was questioned as a witness that night (which also weasels out of the recording laws), and so was not entitled to any more than a police translator. Legally speaking, it matters not that the testimony about the "firm but friendly questioning" is blatant, smug testi-lying - the courts in any country rarely if ever rebuke such ridiculous assertions. And yes, guilters, that was most definitely a bald-faced lie, along the lines of "he assaulted my hand with his face!" - an 'interview' involving 30 officers on overtime, that doesn't start until late at night is an interrogation, no doubt about it. If you question that assertion, go consult with any LEO you wish, and they will agree (and they will most likely also agree that fudging declaration of Suspects is a common way to work around laws intended to protect the rights of the accused - thus the advent of the 'person of interest').

The above cheat also covers not getting her access to a lawyer.

I'm short on time and patience at the moment, so I can't recall the rest of the things called 'illegal by Italian law', but I do know that when I first went through the letter, I found similar circumstances - no Italian laws were violated in application, which is all that really matters in the end (just ask the many prisoners that have fallen prey to such tactics in the US, UK and most everywhere else - sure, the courts know that it's dirty, but won't do anything about it because it's strangely enough usually not something that happens out of malignant intent - it's more just a matter of getting the job done in the LEA's viewpoint).



@DGFred - sorry I'm late on that play by play, I'm not avoiding it, just super busy. I'll get to it when I can. Thanks for your patience.




ETA - Please note that while this may have sounded anti-cop, I am anything but. I am a huge supporter of LE and Prosecutors, as long as they are acting in good faith, as the majority do. Alas, I am also well aware of the minority of the same that treat the laws and human rights as if they were the rules to a game of tag, and that the laws that protect the good LEOs and Prosecutors unfortunately make if very difficult to do anything about the bad ones. Thus as a realist, I make mention of things that other LE supporters are very sensitive about. My apologies if anyone takes offense.
 
  • #416
'That' was entirely uncalled for! I will not bother reporting it because it is not worth the trouble. I guess desperate times call for desperate measures...it is obvious the innocent side is getting desperate.

Nothing happened to AK during her initial hours except she screwed up. She never recanted her story while Patrick was in jail. Ridiculous indeed.

I'm sorry, fred. That wasn't what I meant by "fantasies," but I can certainly see that's how it reads.

I merely meant that just because some people can imagine such a scenario doesn't mean there is any evidence for it.

I did not mean to suggest you were titillated by the idea. (I can't speak for Mignini. Sometimes I wonder.)

The "gift" statement already begins the recantation by saying the events described "seem more unreal than real" to me. Should AK have been clearer? Yes. Should ILE have been more cautious? Absolutely.

(fred, I can't go back now and edit or delete the original post. I have no problem if you want to ask a mod to do so.)
 
  • #417
I'm sorry, fred. That wasn't what I meant by "fantasies," but I can certainly see that's how it reads.

I merely meant that just because some people can imagine such a scenario doesn't mean there is any evidence for it.

I did not mean to suggest you were titillated by the idea. (I can't speak for Mignini. Sometimes I wonder.)

The "gift" statement already begins the recantation by saying the events described "seem more unreal than real" to me. Should AK have been clearer? Yes. Should ILE have been more cautious? Absolutely.

(fred, I can't go back now and edit or delete the original post. I have no problem if you want to ask a mod to do so.)

The gift statement also retraces her steps the night of the murder, none of which includes the story about meeting Patrick or going to the cottage.

I got the gist of what you were saying to fred, by the way.
 
  • #418
If you lied about your alibi would you expect this to be used against you at trial?

If you lied about 'pricking' the murder victim on a previous occasion would you expect this to be used against you at trial?

If your bloody bare footprint was on a mat at the murder scene would you want this evidence used against you? What about the luminol bare footprints attributed to you in the hallway?

If you were innocent would you testify... just asking? I would!

I know you weren't asking me, but thanks to this case and others, I wouldn't get a chance to lie about my alibi--because I'd ask for a lawyer and say nothing. Of course WS posters would declare that to be evidence of my guilt, but I think it's the lesser of two evils.

As for testifying at trial, that's a strategic decision that usually has little to do with guilt or innocence. Plenty of guilty people have testified; plenty of innocent people have listened to their lawyers and shut up.
 
  • #419
. . . that excuses are made for RS claiming to have 'pricked' Meredith,. . .

No, this leapt out at me as weird and suspicious, from the get go. Over-explaining is always a red flag....

I don't know why we're still harping on this.

This is a classic attempt to explain away evidence that isn't true but that LE says is "irrefutable." The dialogue goes like this:

LE: Well, if you can just clear up this one problem we have, we can put the whole matter to rest and you can be on your way. (Emphasis added to isolate the "carrot".)

RS: Uh, well, maybe I accidentally pricked MK when she was eating dinner at my house.

LE: Ah, ha! AK (or FR or even RS himself) told us MK was never at your house! You are lying and only the killer would lie.

And four years later this is still raised as evidence against RS.

Moral: never talk to police no matter how innocent you are or how helpful they appear.

ETA my little playlet above is just an illustration, but I think it represents the essence of the exchange between RS and his interrogators. Regardless, the MK-comes-to-dinner story is just a lame attempt to explain away evidence RS has been told is "irrefutable." Of course, we now know the evidence is far from certain, but RS didn't know that at the time he told the lie.
 
  • #420
Right on the mark! :rocker:

But Mignini and his controversies aside, aren't you bothered by the fact that there is dried semen on MK's pillow that has never been DNA tested?

For all we know, there is an unindicted co-conspirator wandering free!

(Don't misunderstand me: I think the semen probably belongs to RG. But that's hardly something we should leave to assumptions!)
 
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