Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #14

[SMK]

I can't agree with that last sentence because at this point, I doubt they'll get longer sentences, so they should just go all out.

I see what you mean, but if it makes the difference between overturning or upholding the convictions, they need to play it carefully. Caution always pays. Or usually......

 

[wasnt_me]

I am trying to believe this guy. I have trouble being that optimistic, but it is comforting:

http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspot.com/2011/06/amanda-knox-appeal-another-day-in-court.html

SMK,

From what I understand, the prisoners are NOT I repeat--ARE NOT--defense witnesses. It's reported as if they are defense witnesses because people are ignorant of the italian system.

The defense only asked that they be heard so that it can be ascertained if their stories were relevant. The defense argued that the last judge would not even allow it, even though it could have been relevant to another culprit.

They don't punish the defense based on this testimony because this testimony was only allowed to gauge it's verascity. That's it. It's kind of like our courts do BEFORE they actually let the people before the jury. Maybe during "grand jury," I don't know. But they hear witnesses and evidence in Italian courts regardless, so they can obtain validity during the course of the trial. If they do not validate it, it will be disregarded, kind of like the other judge did when he discarded stuff while writing the mot. report.

Hellman can, in essence, disregard this testimony and still rule in favor of RS and AK.

 

[wasnt_me]

I see what you mean, but if it makes the difference between overturning or upholding the convictions, they need to play it carefully. Caution always pays. Or usually......

I just worry that you're fretting too much about it, and reading too many opinions of others might make it worse for you. Be optimistic. They have nothing to lose at this point, caution is fine, but like I said, I doubt years will be added, unless AK loses her other slander case.

Besides, how can RG hurt them? He's already put RS at the scene and said AK was outside.

What's he going to do, make up more stuff? If he does, then the defense will need to call more witnesses, or pull more evidence into question to counteract what he says. He can't keep making up stuff or he'll make up one too many things and slip up. I'm certain he doesn't want to overplay his own hand. You might believe somewhere in your heart that these two helped RG. Otherwise, I don't see why having RG on the stand is not making you do cartwheels. I am.

 

[SMK]

SMK,

From what I understand, the prisoners are NOT I repeat--ARE NOT--defense witnesses. It's reported as if they are defense witnesses because people are ignorant of the italian system.

The defense only asked that they be heard so that it can be ascertained if their stories were relevant. The defense argued that the last judge would not even allow it, even though it could have been relevant to another culprit.

They don't punish the defense based on this testimony because this testimony was only allowed to gauge it's verascity. That's it. It's kind of like our courts do BEFORE they actually let the people before the jury. Maybe during "grand jury," I don't know. But they hear witnesses and evidence in Italian courts regardless, so they can obtain validity during the course of the trial. If they do not validate it, it will be disregarded, kind of like the other judge did when he discarded stuff while writing the mot. report.

Hellman can, in essence, disregard this testimony and still rule in favor of RS and AK.

Thanks for giving me a clearer perspective. Everyone has made it seem that this was a "defense circus" and a "disastrous step for the defense": No wonder I am confused! I now believe Judge Hellman may in fact be attempting to "dot his i s and cross his t s " so that his judgement will seem a carefully reasoned and just one. Someone quoted him as saying at the onset, "We know only that Meredith is dead". Clean slate. He did not even add, "and that Guede was there".

 

[SMK]

I just worry that you're fretting too much about it, and reading too many opinions of others might make it worse for you. Be optimistic. They have nothing to lose at this point, caution is fine, but like I said, I doubt years will be added, unless AK loses her other slander case.

Besides, how can RG hurt them? He's already put RS at the scene and said AK was outside.

What's he going to do, make up more stuff? If he does, then the defense will need to call more witnesses, or pull more evidence into question to counteract what he says. He can't keep making up stuff or he'll make up one too many things and slip up. I'm certain he doesn't want to overplay his own hand. You might believe somewhere in your heart that these two helped RG. Otherwise, I don't see why having RG on the stand is not making you do cartwheels. I am.

Yes. Just like Amanda was, and then: JUST KIDDING! :laugh:

 

[wasnt_me]

Right. I even read that's why we had all those crazy witnesses from the prosecution.

It's not that Mig believed them or wanted to use them against AK and RS. It's because they HAVE to be heard and then either used in a decision or discarded as irrelevant. I never understood that and I thought Mig was putting on his own circus.

In regard to the witnesses, he was not. He had to put them on because they came forward. The judge just decided to watch part of the circus that upheld the guilt. Now, the defense has convinced Hellman to watch the part of the circus that might support innocence.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes. Just like Amanda was, and then: JUST KIDDING! :laugh:

Yes, I was smiling when I wrote it. :rocker:

 

[SMK]

Right. I even read that's why we had all those crazy witnesses from the prosecution.

It's not that Mig believed them or wanted to use them against AK and RS. It's because they HAVE to be heard and then either used in a decision or discarded as irrelevant. I never understood that and I thought Mig was putting on his own circus.

In regard to the witnesses, he was not. He had to put them on because they came forward. The judge just decided to watch part of the circus that upheld the guilt. Now, the defense has convinced Hellman to watch the part of the circus that might support innocence.

Great clarification! :great:

 

[otto]

I think it might be time for people to really ask themselves how far they are willing to adjust reality in order to view Knox as the little angel that can do no wrong. Are we really willing to say that because one of her latest witnesses only tied up a family, kidnapped an 18 month old child from his high chair and beat that child to death with a shovel, he's really not that bad because he looks nice, might be innocent and didn't have a chance to molest the child? How much of reality has to be suspended in order to get Knox out of her murder conviction?

 

[otto]

OK, what is Mario's motive then if he is not looking for atonement?

Don't know and don't care, but if I had to guess .... He's a crazy, lying child murderer who will never spend a day outside of prison as long as he lives unless he manipulates the system?

 

[otto]

Thanks for giving me a clearer perspective. Everyone has made it seem that this was a "defense circus" and a "disastrous step for the defense": No wonder I am confused! I now believe Judge Hellman may in fact be attempting to "dot his i s and cross his t s " so that his judgement will seem a carefully reasoned and just one. Someone quoted him as saying at the onset, "We know only that Meredith is dead". Clean slate. He did not even add, "and that Guede was there".

It's a prisoner circus that amuses Chris Mellas, and the defense has asked that the prisoner fantasies be entertained by the court. We can split hairs in an effort to distance the murderers from the prisoner circus, but no one other that the defense wants this testimony to be taken seriously.

 

[otto]

The homeless prosecution witness looks like a saint in comparison to the prisoner circus defense witnesses.

 

[SMK]

Don't know and don't care, but if I had to guess .... He's a crazy, lying child murderer who will never spend a day outside of prison as long as he lives unless he manipulates the system?

The system is not going to give him a thing. Why should they? I cannot imagine it at all. (I do not know if you are religious, Otto, but mayhap someday we shall have to realize that a God does indeed grant to Mario some measure of atonement, and to the little child and family, too. - it may not be either/or in transcendence.)

 

[otto]

In a week's time, I suspect the facts will be redefined such that the prosecution insisted on hearing these prison witnesses, the Judge thought their testimony was extremely relevant, that the prisoners are all nice guys that were wrongfully convicted by evil Italian prosecutors that like putting innocent people in jail ... and ... did I forget anything?

 

[SMK]

I think it might be time for people to really ask themselves how far they are willing to adjust reality in order to view Knox as the little angel that can do no wrong. Are we really willing to say that because one of her latest witnesses only tied up a family, kidnapped an 18 month old child from his high chair and beat that child to death with a shovel, he's really not that bad because he looks nice, might be innocent and didn't have a chance to molest the child? How much of reality has to be suspended in order to get Knox out of her murder conviction?

Otto, Otto....:razz:IF you think I believe Amanda is " a little angel who can do no wrong" and Mario is just as sweet as pie, you are NOT grasping my beliefs. Amanda may be a real selfish b**ch, and yet be innocent of Kercher's murder. Mario may be mentally ill. I am not whitewashing anything. I am stating my true beliefs. Recall how much I adore Mignini. No motive there. But "the other side" white washed the heroin-addicted loon, and white-washed Mignini's crimes, really----what is good for the goose is good for the gander....

 

[SMK]

In a week's time, I suspect the facts will be redefined such that the prosecution insisted on hearing these prison witnesses, the Judge thought their testimony was extremely relevant, that the prisoners are all nice guys that were wrongfully convicted by evil Italian prosecutors that like putting innocent people in jail ... and ... did I forget anything?

YES! You forgot to propose the founding of the "Mario Alessi Innocence Project"! Mario was framed, methinks!:laugh::laugh:

 

[otto]

The system is not going to give him a thing. Why should they? I cannot imagine it at all. (I do not know if you are religious, Otto, but mayhap someday we shall have to realize that a God does indeed grant to Mario some measure of atonement, and to the little child and family, too. - it may not be either/or in transcendence.)

The first step for the child murderer is that he is going to have to acknowledge his victim, and he was unwilling to do that in court yesterday.

 

[otto]

YES! You forgot to propose the founding of the "Mario Alessi Innocence Project"! Mario was framed, methinks!:laugh::laugh:

Those Idaho guys don't seem to have enough guilty people to spring out of jail in Idaho, so maybe they should open a branch in Italy and spring some child murderers, mafia, armed robbers and the guy from the Ivory coast. He is claiming to be innocent of the murder charges too.

 

[SMK]

It's a prisoner circus that amuses Chris Mellas, and the defense has asked that the prisoner fantasies be entertained by the court. We can split hairs in an effort to distance the murderers from the prisoner circus, but no one other that the defense wants this testimony to be taken seriously.

I was not implying that you had misled me, Otto---just PMF forum and various articles. And yes, the prosecution may well want this circus, to show that only half-wits and killers believe Knox is innocent.

 

[SMK]

Those Idaho guys don't seem to have enough guilty people to spring out of jail in Idaho, so maybe they should open a branch in Italy and spring some child murderers, mafia, armed robbers and the guy from the Ivory coast. He is claiming to be innocent of the murder charges too.

Well, the Innocence Projects are in earnest, and people ARE wrongfully convicted globally. My intuition re Mario is that his wife put him up to it, and that he really wished he never got involved. But that is neither here nor there re Knox.