Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #901
I should say that just because I would acquit them doesn't mean the court will (obviously). I will say that I did NOT know, coming into this forum, that those two particular pieces of evidence were under review. I based my opinions on the case off of the Massei report, and it's the caveats present in that report that led me to feel that the three items I named were necesarry to convict. Of those three, two have been discounted. The third is not enough to convict for murder, in my personal opinion, but is enough to convict Amanda as an accessory (not Raffaelle).

The court could obviously find that the accumulation of the other 30 pieces of evidence means that they are guilty still. Specifically the court may find that the murder required more than one person, and the aggregate of the evidence concludes those additional persons must be Knox and Sollecito.

BBM ... which three items?

Do you think that because contamination cannot be ruled out, that it should be ruled in?

The Supreme Court has ruled that Guede did not act alone. That ruling was independent of the conviction of Knox and Sollecito. Guede has identified the pair as being present at the scene. Guede has nothing to gain by falsely accusing them, as his case is concluded.

I do not believe the evidence will evaporate because contamination cannot be ruled out so, as you say, there's another 30 things to appeal. Perhaps Knox and Sollecito can be released early without removing the conviction ... that would allow them to cash in on the notoriety and pay off their conviction related debt.
 
  • #902
Barbie Nadeau interviewed again ... doesn't sound like anyone is ready to give Knox a walk, with the best option being that she might get off on a technicality just like O.J.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/30/italy.knox.appeal/index.html

She'll be right up there with another guy that left no doubt in almost everyone's mind about guilt.

(... and no, it is not Nadeau that is comparing her to O.J.)
 
  • #903
Barbie Nadeau interviewed again ... doesn't sound like anyone is ready to give Knox a walk, with the best option being that she might get off on a technicality just like O.J.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/30/italy.knox.appeal/index.html

She'll be right up there with another guy that left no doubt in almost everyone's mind about guilt.

(... and no, it is not Nadeau that is comparing her to O.J.)

1. Many, many people will not believe this is a mere technicality, but exoneration and justice.

2. A young girl is not like OJ, and I think if she is free and back in the U.S., she will focus on those who support her.

3. If AK and RS were guilty, it would of course not be reason for cheer to see them go free, but many of us believe they are innocent. But it ain't over 'til its over, as they say......
 
  • #904
This was in latest Time magazine, in their June 30 health section, - thought it was very interesting, because in the past I wrote a blog piece on her possibly having Aspberger syndrome (my son has it, and I recognized some of the traits in her) and now I see this is wondered about openly in Time :

Could Amanda Knox Have an Autism Spectrum Disorder?
Amanda Knox, the 23-year-old American college student who was convicted of sexually assaulting and killing her roommate, Meredith Kercher, in Italy in 2007, allegedly after an orgy gone wrong, got good news this week. Independent experts working on her ongoing appeal said that the traces of DNA used to convict Knox may have been contaminated and are "unreliable."
With the DNA evidence excluded, the only substantiation of Knox's guilt includes a possibly coerced confession and her bizarre behavior after being arrested. But could those two things have the same explanation? Is it possible that Knox has an underlying condition — Asperger's syndrome, a less severe form of autism — that caused both her unusual social behavior and a gullibility that triggered a false confession?

I thought these comments in the piece by Paxton and Sollectio were stunning, as my son displays both of them:
She's a little dork who doesn't wear matched socks," says her best friend, Madison Paxton. ...
[Sollecito said]: "I noticed that her opinions on the music were odd. ... She didn't concentrate on the emotions it provoked but only on the rhythm — slow, fast, slow."


http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/...ve-an-autism-spectrum-disorder/#ixzz1QrhBgxDM
 
  • #905
1. Many, many people will not believe this is a mere technicality, but exoneration and justice.

2. A young girl is not like OJ, and I think if she is free and back in the U.S., she will focus on those who support her.

3. If AK and RS were guilty, it would of course not be reason for cheer to see them go free, but many of us believe they are innocent. But it ain't over 'til its over, as they say......

I cannot say I believe they are innocent, only that their guilt has not been proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt..
 
  • #906
1. Many, many people will not believe this is a mere technicality, but exoneration and justice.

2. A young girl is not like OJ, and I think if she is free and back in the U.S., she will focus on those who support her.

3. If AK and RS were guilty, it would of course not be reason for cheer to see them go free, but many of us believe they are innocent. But it ain't over 'til its over, as they say......

Are two piece of evidence, where contamination cannot be ruled out, going to make the other evidence disappear?

Lawyers for OJ are like lawyers for everyone - even Knox - they look for anything they keep the client out of jail.
 
  • #907
This was in latest Time magazine, in their June 30 health section, - thought it was very interesting, because in the past I wrote a blog piece on her possibly having Aspberger syndrome (my son has it, and I recognized some of the traits in her) and now I see this is wondered about openly in Time :



I thought these comments in the piece by Paxton and Sollectio were stunning, as my son displays both of them:



http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/...ve-an-autism-spectrum-disorder/#ixzz1QrhBgxDM

Soooooo ... if it's not a technicality, then she should get a "get out of jail free card" because she's has a mental disorder?
 
  • #908
Are two piece of evidence, where contamination cannot be ruled out, going to make the other evidence disappear?

Lawyers for OJ are like lawyers for everyone - even Knox - they look for anything they keep the client out of jail.
Well, I guess we will not really know until July 25, and even then there may be additional hearings in August or Sept. I guess the verdict in early October will clear up the matter of the 2 pieces of DNA being essential or not.
 
  • #909
I cannot say I believe they are innocent, only that their guilt has not been proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt..

That's always challenging when all the authentic information is in a foreign language. I've been puzzling over Rasputin for years.
 
  • #910
Soooooo ... if it's not a technicality, then she should get a "get out of jail free card" because she's has a mental disorder?
Who the h#ll said that????:razz:
 
  • #911
That's always challenging when all the authentic information is in a foreign language. I've been puzzling over Rasputin for years.
Are you saying Old Steve has no right to make any judgement because he is not fluent in Italian?:mad:
 
  • #912
Who the h#ll said that????:razz:

My mistake, I thought the point of the disorder was to suggest that everything she has done and said should be viewed as a disorder rather than guilt. Is she still possibly guilty even if she has the disorder?
 
  • #913
Are you saying Old Steve has no right to make any judgement because he is not fluent in Italian?:mad:

How did you get that? What's with the :mad:-ness?
 
  • #914
My mistake, I thought the point of the disorder was to suggest that everything she has done and said should be viewed as a disorder rather than guilt. Is she still possibly guilty even if she has the disorder?
If she is guilty, then NO, having an autism disorder would in no way excuse committing murder. If she is innocent, it is only being pointed out that her autism disorder might explain her self-stimulating activities (dancing, cartwheels, silliness that others find bizarre). I have seen the behaviors first-hand, and they appear inappropriate unless you understand what the subject is doing and why.
 
  • #915
If she is guilty, then NO, having an autism disorder would in no way excuse committing murder. If she is innocent, it is only being pointed out that her autism disorder might explain her self-stimulating activities (dancing, cartwheels, silliness that others find bizarre). I have seen the behaviors first-hand, and they appear inappropriate unless you understand what the subject is doing and why.

Ah, thanks. So this is supposed to excuse her "bizarre" behavior. I'm going to keep the conversation on Knox, but there is another thread specifically about the disorder on this forum.
 
  • #916
Ah, thanks. So this is supposed to excuse her "bizarre" behavior. I'm going to keep the conversation on Knox, but there is another thread specifically about the disorder on this forum.
OK, thanks. It is not a matter of excusing, but of explaining what some may not understand. It could account for why ILE found her suspicious and strange.

And the disorder usually reveals only sub-clinical activity on brain scans, so it it diagnosed by its symptoms, which are the behavior. I just thought it was interesting that I myself had noted the behaviors in her, and now I see it echoed in Time magazine. Why is there a thread about it, whom are they referring to?
 
  • #917
How did you get that? What's with the :mad:-ness?
Sorry, feeling mean as a grizzly bear today..... I thought you were making fun of Old Steve. :eek:

ETA:As the majority of us are NOT fluent in Italian, and all have strong opinions, as you yourself , Otto, what difference does it make? Have you formed your strong opinion by reading all in Italiano?:waitasec:
 
  • #918
BBM ... which three items?

Do you think that because contamination cannot be ruled out, that it should be ruled in?

The Supreme Court has ruled that Guede did not act alone. That ruling was independent of the conviction of Knox and Sollecito. Guede has identified the pair as being present at the scene. Guede has nothing to gain by falsely accusing them, as his case is concluded.

I do not believe the evidence will evaporate because contamination cannot be ruled out so, as you say, there's another 30 things to appeal. Perhaps Knox and Sollecito can be released early without removing the conviction ... that would allow them to cash in on the notoriety and pay off their conviction related debt.

From what has been repeated here, the report seems pretty definitive that it is not forensically sound to use either the results or the evidence to prosecute someone for murder. (It actually goes beyond reasonable doubt for me, to serious doubt). I did not have knowledge that the bra clasp, and the knife were being reviewed. After reviewing the Messai report, I came to the personal conclusion if I were a jury member that it would be those two pieces of evidence and the luminol footprints that would make me find a guilty verdict. That was accounting for the defense's explanation of why they could be tainted that was within the report. I will add that with the luminol footprints, the summary of why those could be refuted was not in enough depth for me, as I wanted to understand more comprehensively how luminol reacts to cleaning agents, orange juice etc.

The Messai report seemed to say (to me) that Filomena and the Postal Police's memory of the placement of the glass meant definitively that the break-in was staged. The rest of the evidence pointing to the staging was a buttressing of their eyewitness memory. I personally find a memory of glass placement, prior to knowing a murder took place, to be unreliable. The rest of the evidence went on like this, and I found the defense's explanation, within the Messai report to introduce reasonable doubt.

As I have said previously, if I am required by the courts to believe that the break-in was staged, then I would likely find them guilty as accessories, not as murderers.
 
  • #919
From what has been repeated here, the report seems pretty definitive that it is not forensically sound to use either the results or the evidence to prosecute someone for murder. (It actually goes beyond reasonable doubt for me, to serious doubt). I did not have knowledge that the bra clasp, and the knife were being reviewed. After reviewing the Messai report, I came to the personal conclusion if I were a jury member that it would be those two pieces of evidence and the luminol footprints that would make me find a guilty verdict. That was accounting for the defense's explanation of why they could be tainted that was within the report. I will add that with the luminol footprints, the summary of why those could be refuted was not in enough depth for me, as I wanted to understand more comprehensively how luminol reacts to cleaning agents, orange juice etc.

The Messai report seemed to say (to me) that Filomena and the Postal Police's memory of the placement of the glass meant definitively that the break-in was staged. The rest of the evidence pointing to the staging was a buttressing of their eyewitness memory. I personally find a memory of glass placement, prior to knowing a murder took place, to be unreliable. The rest of the evidence went on like this, and I found the defense's explanation, within the Messai report to introduce reasonable doubt.

As I have said previously, if I am required by the courts to believe that the break-in was staged, then I would likely find them guilty as accessories, not as murderers.
As I have said before , I wish I could confirm whether or not they are required to pay heed to the high court's ruling on Guede not acting alone, or no. It would be far fairer IMO if they did not. I read somewhere that they did not indeed have to take Guede's ruling into account, but cannot seem to confirm it. :(

ETA: This is all I could find:

The family and supporters of the jailed Seattle student Amanda Knox suffered a serious legal setback yesterday when the murder conviction of the third suspect in the killing of Knox's flatmate Meredith Kercher was upheld by a high court in Rome.


Ivory Coast immigrant Rudy Guede's final appeal under Italian law against his conviction and 16-year jail term was turned down and Guede (above) has no further recourse to argue his innocence.


Put simply, no judge or magistrate has believed Guede's story that he was in the bathroom of the apartment the two girls shared in Perugia, listening to music on his iPod while someone else stabbed Meredith. According to Guede's story, when he came out of the bathroom he found Meredith bleeding to death and tried to staunch the flow of blood – hence the discovery of his DNA by investigators.


Under Italian law, all documentation from Guede's various hearings can now be introduced into the appeal trial of Knox and her former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, which reconvenes in Perugia tomorrow. The problem for Knox and Sollecito is that Guede's trial documents will include the judges' reasons for convicting Guede and denying his appeals: namely, that they believe all three – Guede, Knox and Sollecito - killed Meredith together.
"Guede can now be called to testify and we are considering, along with the prosecutors, if we will request that Saturday or not," said the Kercher family's attorney Francesco Maresca in Rome.

"We will ask that the high court decision be admitted, as it stabilises the facts and is an important point of reference, with judges confirming the reconstruction of events and the involvement of the other two suspects in this dramatic ordeal in which a young woman lost her life."

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/72922...nox-as-guede-loses-final-appeal#ixzz1QsFQKGct
 
  • #920
Regarding the luminol prints

As per the testimony of Dr. Torre

Torre also pointed out that the luminol footprints that investigators say are of Knox's bare feet cannot be because Knox's second toe is longer than her big toe, and that characteristic is not apparent in the lumino-enhanced prints. He also pointed out that the bare footprints of the other two women who lived in the house were not taken for comparison, nor were those of the victim

http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=8014386&page=2

Wow! Even THAT is wrong?!
 
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