Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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  • #961
Massei has no comment. Go figure....

:floorlaugh:

President of the Court: "No comment". "No comment, no comment is task of the judges," said judge Giancarlo Massei, who in the first degree for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had presided over the Court of Assizes, which had sentenced the two to 25 and 26 years in prison, referring to the report. According to the court what happened "is part of the physiological processes".

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/20...4_anni_di_buio-18437838/index.html?ref=search

(translate it).
 
  • #962
I don't believe any tampering was ever proven in the Simpson case. Nor do I believe any took place.

An excellent defense team exploited each and every irregularity by LE, but even so they weren't able to prove tampering.

OT: Yes you are correct. IMO the OJ verdict was all about racial politics in LA.... period. Anyone who tries to suggest otherwise is being politically correct. It was a trial that lasted MONTHS AND MONTHS yet it was a 3 hour deliberation with a TON of DNA evidence and an eyewitness who saw OJ running into his house when he was suppose to already be inside sleeping.
The defense claimed the evidence was planted by a "racist" cop and LAPD in general. In the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict and riots this predominantly black jury bought into that conspiracy. I'm not saying they were horrible for doing so because in their experience they didn't trust LAPD and Cochran played into their mistrust and paranoia big time.
jmo
 
  • #963
It may be true that contamination of the LNC DNA evidence cannot be ruled out because it was not analysed in a different lab, but that does not mean that the evidence was contaminated.

That's not my understanding from the report. My understanding is that they are saying very basic safety measures were ignored, and the results themselves appear to have been cherry picked. It basically seems to destroy the evidence from every conceivable angle.

The report appears to be saying they didn't even do the most simple of checks, which was to run a blank test to see if the machine was coming back with a positive DNA reading.

I have to say I am surprised by the aggressiveness of the report. You usually don't see a refutation this definitive.
 
  • #964
That's not my understanding from the report. My understanding is that they are saying very basic safety measures were ignored, and the results themselves appear to have been cherry picked. It basically seems to destroy the evidence from every conceivable angle.

The report appears to be saying they didn't even do the most simple of checks, which was to run a blank test to see if the machine was coming back with a positive DNA reading.

I have to say I am surprised by the aggressiveness of the report. You usually don't see a refutation this definitive.

Darn it guys, you keep pulling me out of my cozy little corner! :crazy:

Indeed, the report is accusing everyone from the scene techs onward of systemic, gross levels of incompetence and/or negligence in the most basic, essential forensic practices. Seriously, the protocols that weren't followed at each step are standard, common sense practices in the given circumstances, and the number of times results were misinterpreted/misrepresented is suspect, to say the least. This is the kind of report that destroys careers. If the authors of this report get that across well in testimony, the defense may be able to get the Judge to question the validity of more than just these two pieces of evidence, IMO.

Okay, back to the shadows for awhile.


ETA: And yes, there is always a certain degree of risk of contamination in any forensic procedure, however, what is described in the report is what is usually termed 'an unacceptable degree of risk'. Basically, the normal risk is like the risk you take by driving, whereas the risk described here is like driving drunk, while talking on the cell-phone and doing your make-up in the rear-view mirror.
 
  • #965
It may be true that contamination of the LNC DNA evidence cannot be ruled out because it was not analysed in a different lab, but that does not mean that the evidence was contaminated.

:sigh:

If a DNA lab cannot guarantee its testing is free from contamination, then the results it produces are unreliable and should not be used in court. I'm not reading 150 pages on DNA, but from the excerpts quoted here, it appears Stefanoni failed to test her own machine to insure it was clean. Whether she also failed to have another lab duplicate her tests, I don't know, but that isn't a requirement I've encountered before.

The independent reports detail fatal errors in the DNA testing. It isn't a matter of "comme ci comme ça" or "contamination can't be proven or disproven, so let's call it a tie".
 
  • #966
That's not my understanding from the report. My understanding is that they are saying very basic safety measures were ignored, and the results themselves appear to have been cherry picked. It basically seems to destroy the evidence from every conceivable angle.

The report appears to be saying they didn't even do the most simple of checks, which was to run a blank test to see if the machine was coming back with a positive DNA reading.

I have to say I am surprised by the aggressiveness of the report. You usually don't see a refutation this definitive.

Yes, it was unexpectedly harsh.
 
  • #967
Yes, it was unexpectedly harsh.

That is what threw me for a loop re Perugia Murder File.

When the Defense and Knox family had been delighted many months ago , first, at being granted an Independent Review, and later, at finding too little DNA to re-test, I had quickly looked to PMF and saw them reassuring their faithful that no, not to worry, this was very good news for the Prosecution! All it meant, their experts said soothingly, is that the ORIGINAL DNA evidence and testing would be strengthened 2-fold in the independent report.

That the OPPOSITE has now happened has many forums calling PMF bad, bad predictors, who used denial and wishful thinking instead of logic. :maddening:
 
  • #968
That is what threw me for a loop re Perugia Murder File.

When the Defense and Knox family had been delighted many months ago , first, at being granted to an Independent Review, and later, at finding too little DNA to re-test, I had quickly looked to PMF and saw them reassuring their faithful that no, not to worry, this was very good news for the Prosecution! All it meant, their experts said soothingly, is that the ORIGINAL DNA evidence and testing would be strengthened 2-fold in the independent report.

That the OPPOSITE has now happened has many forums calling PMF bad, bad predictors, who used denial and wishful thinking instead of logic. :maddening:

There's no question the independent experts' report is highly favorable to the defendants.

HOWEVER, this is still Perugia, where a possible semen stain isn't tested because--oh, never mind, the reason it wasn't tested is too stupid to repeat.

<modsnip>.

I realize the case is now before a different judge, but I wouldn't count on any court in Umbria doing the logical, ethnical or reasonable thing. We'll have to wait and see.
 
  • #969
There's no question the independent experts' report is highly favorable to the defendants.

HOWEVER, this is still Perugia, where a possible semen stain isn't tested because--oh, never mind, the reason it wasn't tested is too stupid to repeat.

<modsnip>.

I realize the case is now before a different judge, but I wouldn't count on any court in Umbria doing the logical, ethnical or reasonable thing. We'll have to wait and see.
Maybe this is why so many of us want to celebrate this victory early, and fully. Because it may reverse, so now is the time to celebrate..... :(
 
  • #970
There's no question the independent experts' report is highly favorable to the defendants.

HOWEVER, this is still Perugia, where a possible semen stain isn't tested because--oh, never mind, the reason it wasn't tested is too stupid to repeat.

<modsnip>.

I realize the case is now before a different judge, but I wouldn't count on any court in Umbria doing the logical, ethnical or reasonable thing. We'll have to wait and see.

I agree! Considering all that's been said about the state of MK's room NOT showing signs of multiple perps, and yet the court saying there were multiple people involved - it would not surprise me if the convictions are upheld..
 
  • #971
I agree! Considering all that's been said about the state of MK's room NOT showing signs of multiple perps, and yet the court saying there were multiple people involved - it would not surprise me if the convictions are upheld..
But must they take into account Guede's final appeal and the high court ruling that there were multiple persons involved? If not, there is a great deal of hope. If so, not so much....
 
  • #972
  • #973
ItalianStudentsCorso-300x225.jpg
Photo by Candace Dempsey .

&#8220;I do not know if Amanda Knox is guilty, but she deserves prison for chasing away all the English and American tourists in Perugia,&#8221; says C. Vittoria, who sells postcards on the central square of the medieval Italian city. Since the case of Amanda Knox&#8211;a young American student on exchange in Perugia, sentenced to 26 years for the murder of her English roommate Meredith Kercher and whose trial resumed on appeal, Vittoria has seen attendance at his shop for English tourists cut in half.

Like Vittoria, &#8220;the Amanda Knox case has been a disaster&#8221; for Giovanni, who runs an ice cream shop in the tourist center of Perugia. &#8221;I pay every day the consequences of this trial, and even more since it resumed last year,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It&#8217;s been four years that we are victims of propaganda, the British and American press against Perugia. They describe our city as a hub for drugs and our police as corrupt to the core. It&#8217;s like a travel brochure, &#8221; Alessandro said ironically. A magazine vendor, he sometimes refuses to sell the Daily Mail and Newsweek &#8220;when they say too many lies. &#8221;

&#8220;I was told it was a cursed city&#8221;

On vacation in Italy, Hannah, a young Englishwoman, 22, is one of the tourists who almost never come to Perugia because of Amanda Knox case. &#8221;I hesitated a lot before coming. When I told my friends that I visit Perugia, they tried very hard to dissuade me to the point that I almost canceled my train tickets at the last minute,&#8221; says the girl who &#8220;is careful not to go into the dark streets &#8221; of the medieval old town. &#8221;I was told it was a cursed city, but I try not to fall into psychosis,&#8221; she adds.

The case of Amanda Knox has not only scared away tourists from Perugia but also the English-speaking students. Student life, once bustling, is a little less today. &#8221;Many things have changed because of Amanda Knox. When we go out late at night, the police are very resent, the bars avoiding serving beer in glasses and prefer plastic cups &#8230;&#8221; regrets Zarko, a former Serbian student at the International University (ndr., University for Foreigners) , which included Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher at the time of the crime. &#8221; (ndr. Meredith was at the University of Perugia). Now on campus, you cannot find any Americans or British. There are more than North Africans, some French and Spanish.&#8221; Sitting on the steps of the famous cathedral of San Lorenzo, Zarko gestures toward the square, which is half empty. &#8221;The American and British press are punishing Perugia for a crime it did not commit. An odd revenge.&#8221;
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/07/02/amanda-knox-case-scares-away-tourists/
 
  • #974
That's not my understanding from the report. My understanding is that they are saying very basic safety measures were ignored, and the results themselves appear to have been cherry picked. It basically seems to destroy the evidence from every conceivable angle.

The report appears to be saying they didn't even do the most simple of checks, which was to run a blank test to see if the machine was coming back with a positive DNA reading.

I have to say I am surprised by the aggressiveness of the report. You usually don't see a refutation this definitive.

I'm a little vague on your last point regarding doing a blank DNA test. It is a test to rule out contamination. If Meredith's DNA was tested immediately prior to the knife blade DNA, then it would be a problem. There should be a record of what was tested prior to the DNA from the blade. The report says that the information received by the experts is incomplete. The way I understand the blank testing factor is that it points towards the conclusion that contamination cannot be ruled out.

IIRC, the purpose of the Rome experts evaluation was to review the DNA, results and methodology for the purpose of identifying whether contamination was a factor and whether the methodology was correct. It is very clear that contamination cannot be ruled out, but that does not imply the converse: that contamination occurred. I guess that is where Judge Hellman will have to make a judgment call during the three days of legal arguments he will hear on July 25. There are also questions regarding the interpretation of results, specifically Sollecito's DNA peaks. I suppose that interpretation will also fall on the shoulders of Hellman. I suspect there will be vigorous arguments from Dr Stefanoni and her colleagues to prevent the lab from being discredited - this report not only impacts the case, but impacts the credibility of the lab, so the report will definitely not go unchallenged.

The next question will be how the rest of the evidence factors into the appeal decision. DNA has only been used since the mid-1990s, but valid convictions have been possible for centuries without DNA evidence. The sentence could be reduced or even vacated by this Judge, but there is still the Supreme Court ruling to consider. That could restore the sentences based on the totality of the evidence.
 
  • #975
I agree! Considering all that's been said about the state of MK's room NOT showing signs of multiple perps, and yet the court saying there were multiple people involved - it would not surprise me if the convictions are upheld..

The defense seems to agree that this murder was committed by more than one person, otherwise they would not have paraded the lying prisoners through the courts - all of whom attempted to point the finger at Guede and an accomplice other than Knox and Sollecito.
 
  • #976
But must they take into account Guede's final appeal and the high court ruling that there were multiple persons involved? If not, there is a great deal of hope. If so, not so much....

My understanding is that by including Guede in this appeal, all the documents pertaining to Guede have now been attached to the appeal.
 
  • #977
My understanding is that by including Guede in this appeal, all the documents pertaining to Guede have now been attached to the appeal.
:mad:
 
  • #978

I think it was a huge blunder for the defense to include the prisoner's testimony in the appeal. Not only did it elicit self-serving testimony from Guede, but it put forth the following negative points: that the defense acknowledges that Guede did not act alone, that Guede confirms Knox and Sollecito were involved, that it attaches Guede trial notes to Knox/Sollecito and that it detracts from the strength of the DNA arguments. In a way, it tainted and muddied the defendants, causing some talking heads to describe the "contaminated DNA argument" as the pair trying to get off on an OJ style technicality.
 
  • #979
I think it was a huge blunder for the defense to include the prisoner's testimony in the appeal. Not only did it elicit self-serving testimony from Guede, but it put forth the following negative points: that the defense acknowledges that Guede did not act alone, that Guede confirms Knox and Sollecito were involved, that it attaches Guede trial notes to Knox/Sollecito and that it detracts from the strength of the DNA arguments.
:mad::razz: ETA:
The SCOI said that Rudy Guede did not act alone,he acted with unknown persons.
The SCOI did not mention AK or RS as the unknown persons. Guede did, but his word is not good.
 
  • #980
I'm a little vague on your last point regarding doing a blank DNA test. It is a test to rule out contamination. If Meredith's DNA was tested immediately prior to the knife blade DNA, then it would be a problem. There should be a record of what was tested prior to the DNA from the blade. The report says that the information received by the experts is incomplete. The way I understand the blank testing factor is that it points towards the conclusion that contamination cannot be ruled out.

IIRC, the purpose of the Rome experts evaluation was to review the DNA, results and methodology for the purpose of identifying whether contamination was a factor and whether the methodology was correct. It is very clear that contamination cannot be ruled out, but that does not imply the converse: that contamination occurred. I guess that is where Judge Hellman will have to make a judgment call during the three days of legal arguments he will hear on July 25. There are also questions regarding the interpretation of results, specifically Sollecito's DNA peaks. I suppose that interpretation will also fall on the shoulders of Hellman. I suspect there will be vigorous arguments from Dr Stefanoni and her colleagues to prevent the lab from being discredited - this report not only impacts the case, but impacts the credibility of the lab, so the report will definitely not go unchallenged.

The next question will be how the rest of the evidence factors into the appeal decision. DNA has only been used since the mid-1990s, but valid convictions have been possible for centuries without DNA evidence. The sentence could be reduced or even vacated by this Judge, but there is still the Supreme Court ruling to consider. That could restore the sentences based on the totality of the evidence.

According to the report, the methodology was sooooo not correct that Stefanoni etc would flunk out of the biotech courses at my local community college, sadly enough. Same goes for the interpretation of the results, regardless of whether they were corrupt from not following protocols. That is what invalidates the two pieces of evidence, and in a sane court, raises doubts about the interpretations of other forensic evidence. Seriously, doing a control is standard procedure in any DNA test. Period. Many other precautions that were not taken fall in the same boat. Gross incompetence or just plain old negligence. Either way, very damning.

That said, you are entirely correct in your assessment that this court or the supreme court (remember folks, a vacated or reduced sentence can still be appealed by both the prosecution and the Kerchers) could still choose to take the prosecution's viewpoint on everything else, and thus either confirm the sentence or even extend it.

You are of course also correct that the Prosecution will fight this report tooth and nail, but I doubt it will do much good, to be honest. Simply put, it is their own documentation, photos and videos that damns them. That is, unless the independent experts are poor speakers - Jurists tend to side with whichever expert they most relate to, rather than on what they are saying, due to the fact that most of what is said goes over their heads. Sad, but understandable, and not an unknown factor to either side in this case, I'm sure.

Okay, now this time I really am going to stay in my corner - going on vacation where there is no internet should help to keep my big mouth shut for awhile.:crazy:
 
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