Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[sherlockh]

How can you be sure that Hellman's reading of the letter aloud means he has discounted the independent experts' report? He may have, but how did he indicate this? :waitasec:

Hellmann allowing this letter to be added to the trial and even reading it out loud is by itself an indication. I don't even really think this letter by itself will wipe the report off the table. I think the court has also listened to Comodi, and we are not done yet as Stefanoni will have her say as well. The report might not even be totally discounted but so far I don't see it having any major influence on the trial outcome. They were supposed to study the knife and the bra clasp but instead they started cutting and pasting images together to show how Stefanoni 'lied'. Was that really necessary? Again JMO.

 

[Malkmus]

Hellmann allowing this letter to be added to the trial and even reading it out loud is by itself an indication. I don't even really think this letter by itself will wipe the report off the table. I think the court has also listened to Comodi, and we are not done yet as Stefanoni will have her say as well. The report might not even be totally discounted but so far I don't see it having any major influence on the trial outcome. They were supposed to study the knife and the bra clasp but instead they started cutting and pasting images together to show how Stefanoni 'lied'. Was that really necessary? Again JMO.

Sherlock, it would greatly help prove your points if you could cite some of the things you claim. I have not seen anything claiming the above. That being said, are you actually defending the lead forensics expert's right to lie about results (if indeed that's what's actually outlined in their presentation)? And are you implying that said lying is somehow irrelevant???

 

[SMK]

Hellmann allowing this letter to be added to the trial and even reading it out loud is by itself an indication. I don't even really think this letter by itself will wipe the report off the table. I think the court has also listened to Comodi, and we are not done yet as Stefanoni will have her say as well. The report might not even be totally discounted but so far I don't see it having any major influence on the trial outcome. They were supposed to study the knife and the bra clasp but instead they started cutting and pasting images together to show how Stefanoni 'lied'. Was that really necessary? Again JMO.

Well, as I have said above, Judge Hellman must maintain fairness and objectivity, and show no bias toward either side. The experts have spoken, and now it is fair to let the prosecution speak. It would be brought in on appeal, if he did not. I still think we cannot know which side Hellman or the jury will tip toward.

 

[wasnt_me]

Anyone who thought the police and the prosecution were not going to fight was living in a fairyworld.

I am not clear from the things I read this morning what valid contentions there are with the new report, IF ANY.

I also think it's naive to believe a letter from the police department trumps a 142 page report. The letter was read aloud because it was submitted. Just like the prisoners were heard, just like RG's letter was read. Nothing earth shattering.

And of course the police department would say what they did. They were goint to submit a letter saying, "Oh, thanks for pointing out what incompetent idiots we are and now lets to go back and retry all other cases based on our never ending incompetence."

What else would they have said besides what they did? We already knew they wouldn't agree with the report.

We knew the prosecution would attack the report and I guess they did. It's weird that I'm not getting concise information about this attack though. Maybe because everyone spent the morning getting off topic on mourning.

I just think that it's ridiculous at this point to so easily lose faith in the report and the judge and justice, just because those who cling to guilt are grasping at straws. Unless someone to can explain to me the GLARING errors against the experts, which were unveiled in court.

And I'm not scared of Stephanoni. She's a liar. she'll be shown to be one.

 

[wasnt_me]

The fact that the machines had been sitting idle for 6 days is a pretty big deal. That makes the scenario of contamination harder to believe.

Edited to add: The fact that it is now agreed that the knife was never cleaned confuses me. If it was never cleaned then how can it possibly be the murder weapon? There must be something lost in translation here.

This machine and 6 day thing is a red herring.

That knife, they don't even know if they bagged it when they took it or later at the office.

The guy who took the knife had come fresh from AK's house, and he set the knife on his desk WITH OTHER evidence he'd been reviewing from the cottage. It sat on his desk for how long? I don't remember. And since they don't remember when they bagged it, it could have set there unbagged all that time, while MORE evidence from the cottage or RS's house might have been set on that desk.

the machines weren't used for 6 days? And? Were they cleaned every day for 6 days? Because 6 days is certainly not as long as 46 days. If you claim you got DNA off a bra clasp after 46 days, then you CANNOT claim that you didn't pick DNA up erroneously off your machine because it had been idle 6 days.

If Hellman is keeping up with all the little rabbit holes the prosecution digs, then hopefully, he'll avoid them in deliberation. I hope he also remembers to factor in the likelihood that the knife even fit the wounds or the impression on the sheet.

 

[Malkmus]

The fact that the machines had been sitting idle for 6 days is a pretty big deal. That makes the scenario of contamination harder to believe.

Edited to add: The fact that it is now agreed that the knife was never cleaned confuses me. If it was never cleaned then how can it possibly be the murder weapon? There must be something lost in translation here.

Emyr, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the experts have built a strong case for contamination of the bra clasp during the collection phase before it reached the lab, and criticized the manner in which Stefanoni interpreted the LCN DNA alleged to belong to the victim Meredith Kercher.

 

[SMK]

PERUGIA, Italy, July 30 (Reuters) - Italy prosecutors grill experts over key Knox evidenceProsecutors challenged forensic experts in court Saturday over new findings that attack crucial pieces of evidence used to convict U.S. student Amanda Knox of the murder of her British flatmate in 2007.

Two experts, Carla Vecchiotti and Stefano Conti, have said they found no evidence supporting the original police conclusion the knife thought to have been used to kill 21-year-old Meredith Kercher carried traces of the victim's blood on the blade.

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi called into question the details of the independent experts' report Saturday, asking if they could be sure they would have found similar results just after Kercher's death.

Vecchiotti said they could not exclude the possibility Kercher's DNA had initially been found, but said "on the basis of the tests we have done today there are no traces of DNA," and added the original procedures used were not reliable.

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE76T1B620110730

 

[mdana]

Anyone who thought the police and the prosecution were not going to fight was living in a fairyworld.

I am not clear from the things I read this morning what valid contentions there are with the new report, IF ANY.

I also think it's naive to believe a letter from the police department trumps a 142 page report. The letter was read aloud because it was submitted. Just like the prisoners were heard, just like RG's letter was read. Nothing earth shattering.

And of course the police department would say what they did. They were goint to submit a letter saying, "Oh, thanks for pointing out what incompetent idiots we are and now lets to go back and retry all other cases based on our never ending incompetence."

What else would they have said besides what they did? We already knew they wouldn't agree with the report.

We knew the prosecution would attack the report and I guess they did. It's weird that I'm not getting concise information about this attack though. Maybe because everyone spent the morning getting off topic on mourning.

I just think that it's ridiculous at this point to so easily lose faith in the report and the judge and justice, just because those who cling to guilt are grasping at straws. Unless someone to can explain to me the GLARING errors against the experts, which were unveiled in court.

And I'm not scared of Stephanoni. She's a liar. she'll be shown to be one.

I think it speaks volumes that he sent a letter, and he did not testify in court himself. This is Italy, and it is all about honor and valor. He was not willing to go to the arena and argue for his department's virtue. IMO, this was just a face saving maneuver to create the illusion of a fight, but it is in reality a white flag.

 

[Nova]

Knox and Sollecito did not recant the statements they made about the time of dinner ... they were caught out by Dr Sollecito. Knox did not recant the statements she made about Mr Lumumba ... she was caught in the lie by police two weeks after she made the statement.

There was no recanting done by any of the convicted murderers.

They didn't recant on the dinner times because that was just a bad guess.

You are wrong about AK not recanting the Lumumba accusation. She started recanting within hours, but was ignored by police.

 

[OldSteve]

After watching on PBS Masterpiece "Zen" with all the ILE intrigues
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/zen/index.html

which of course are simply all part of the show, I still feel there is much that might be going on behind the scenes of this trial in the way of pressures being placed on those who hold the fate of AK/RS with their verdict.

What bothers me is that I see the trial has been shifted to putting the competency/integrity of ALL who collect and process DNA evidence in Italy on trial.

Thus, pressure will be placed to find the defendants guilty, least anyone who has even been convicted as a result of DNA collected and processed by DNA in Italy will have a basis for appeal!

It's too bad the appeal did focus upon the lack of anything found in MK's room to implicate AK/RS and that they had no bruises.... Keep the focus upon that, NOT the placing all of the ILE DNA departments on trial...

 

[Nova]

Mark Geragos introduced the abnormal grieving as normal when defending Scott Peterson, Ms Anthony's lawyer picked up on it. If we are attributing abnormal grieving to Knox, then she is not in very good company. Ugly coping is what Peterson and Anthony did. Are we saying that Knox was "ugly coping" when she was crass while providing new information to Meredith's friends about how she died, went lingerie shopping right after the murder and blew off the memorial?

The repeated comparisons of Knox to Peterson and Anthony are specious and offensive. <modsnip>.

It's particularly absurd to imply that Knox should have grieved for a new acquaintance in the same manner that people grieve for dead spouses or children.

 

[wasnt_me]

http://http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE76T1B620110730

Prosecutor Manuela Comodi called into question the details of the independent experts' report Saturday, asking if they could be sure they would have found similar results just after Kercher's death.

Vecchiotti said they could not exclude the possibility Kercher's DNA had initially been found, but said "on the basis of the tests we have done today there are no traces of DNA," and added the original procedures used were not reliable.

Okay, this was a dumb question for Comodi to even ask. "Well, could you have done any better at the time????"

Vecc answered in the best way possible, aside from saying "If I'd been there the first time aroun, this crap would have been done right!"

Vcc should have just said the part in quotes and left it at that.

 

[Nova]

I think Baez said it best when he said that anyone that does the opposite of what is normally accepted by society after the death of a loved one can fall into the realm of ugly coping. Funny thing ... haven't heard that term outside the US, haven't heard that term outside of a murder defence argument. There is a normal human way that people respond to death. That has been established for centuries. All of a sudden, murder trials in the US today introduce this fantastic theory that normal people have completely abnormal reactions to death and murder, but we should view it as normal. We're supposed to believe that behavioral science is suddenly turned on it's head, and the reactions of Knox and Sollecito, right down to blowing off their day trip and sticking around to lie to police, were completely normal.

There is no "normal" way to respond to a tragedy. This has been explained countless times <modsnip>. There is no "all of a sudden" about the idea that people grieve in different ways.

Lizzie Borden was accused of not grieving properly. Whether she was guilty of murder is still debated, but since she was acquitted by a jury, I'm sure you will think her innocent.

 

[wasnt_me]

After watching on PBS Masterpiece "Zen" with all the ILE intrigues
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/zen/index.html

which of course are simply all part of the show, I still feel there is much that might be going on behind the scenes of this trial in the way of pressures being placed on those who hold the fate of AK/RS with their verdict.

What bothers me is that I see the trial has been shifted to putting the competency/integrity of ALL who collect and process DNA evidence in Italy on trial.

Thus, pressure will be placed to find the defendants guilty, least anyone who has even been convicted as a result of DNA collected and processed by DNA in Italy will have a basis for appeal!

It's too bad the appeal did focus upon the lack of anything found in MK's room to implicate AK/RS and that they had no bruises.... Keep the focus upon that, NOT the placing all of the ILE DNA departments on trial...

Yeah, but each person in jail has presumably had their appeals. If they can bring forward justification that this same thing happened to them, the justice system SHOULD welcome the chance to correct itself.

Italy can easily take the stance that corrupt employees does not mean the system is corrupt. Take Mig for example, whose on appeal for abuse of office.

So I guess I'm saying I doubt they're gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater because Knox's trial turned out this way. They didn't do it for the Monster of Florence trials or any other fiasco trials, did they?

Again, it goes back to seeing if DNA or stephanioni screwed up in the past and how it was handled.

 

[SMK]

Knox's lawyer Carlo della Vedova said that nothing has changed as a result of today's hearing. "It was a heated debate but the prosecutor was not able to overturn the experts' results," he said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda-knox-prosector-blasts-dna-report/story?id=14195630&page=2

 

[Nova]

The writer Emerson said this when his 6 year old son died. It is called discossiation.

Do you mean "dissociation" or that Emerson went dancing at the disco?

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

 

[Malkmus]

Carla Vecchiotti, a forensic specialist from La Sapienza university in Rome, said it was impossible to say whether the British student's DNA was found on the knife.
‘There is a complete genetic profile, but it's not reliable,’ she said.
‘We don't know if Meredith's DNA was on it or not.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nce-exposed-glaring-errors.html#ixzz1TbzuHVnw

 

[Sonata]

Do you mean "dissociation" or that Emerson went dancing at the disco?

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

Genius

 

[OldSteve]

Yeah, but each person in jail has presumably had their appeals. If they can bring forward justification that this same thing happened to them, the justice system SHOULD welcome the chance to correct itself.

Italy can easily take the stance that corrupt employees does not mean the system is corrupt. Take Mig for example, whose on appeal for abuse of office.

So I guess I'm saying I doubt they're gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater because Knox's trial turned out this way. They didn't do it for the Monster of Florence trials or any other fiasco trials, did they?

Again, it goes back to seeing if DNA or stephanioni screwed up in the past and how it was handled.

I'm hoping you are right! I still feel that both the first trial and the appeal have had a way of going off-track...

 

[SMK]

Do you mean "dissociation" or that Emerson went dancing at the disco?

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::doh: