Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[Sonata]

I think Baez said it best when he said that anyone that does the opposite of what is normally accepted by society after the death of a loved one can fall into the realm of ugly coping. Funny thing ... haven't heard that term outside the US, haven't heard that term outside of a murder defence argument. There is a normal human way that people respond to death. That has been established for centuries. All of a sudden, murder trials in the US today introduce this fantastic theory that normal people have completely abnormal reactions to death and murder, but we should view it as normal. We're supposed to believe that behavioral science is suddenly turned on it's head, and the reactions of Knox and Sollecito, right down to blowing off their day trip and sticking around to lie to police, were completely normal.

If you are suggesting that my father and partner, and thinking about it, my stepfather should be considered abnormal due to their more inward approach to mourning, then I may have to stop coming to this board!

 

[Sonata]

My stepfather when he lost his mother 4 months ago actually openly said often that he didn't think he felt sad enough. At the funeral he finally said that it was strange that he felt a little bit sad. I never saw him cry.

I do not believe this is a sign that he murdered my grandmother.

ETA: And that was his own mother. Not his flatmate that he knew for a couple of months tops.

 

[SMK]

Mark Geragos introduced the abnormal grieving as normal when defending Scott Peterson, Ms Anthony's lawyer picked up on it. If we are attributing abnormal grieving to Knox, then she is not in very good company. Ugly coping is what Peterson and Anthony did. Are we saying that Knox was "ugly coping" when she was crass while providing new information to Meredith's friends about how she died, went lingerie shopping right after the murder and blew off the memorial?

Right, Peterson/Anthony not a good comparison - with the other two, a wife and a daughter were lost. With Knox, this was someone she had only known a brief time, had no history with, and had been more or less rejected by. She may have felt there was little to cope with. Grieving may not have been the norm in this case at all. So maybe there was no ugly coping.

 

[SMK]

My stepfather when he lost his mother 4 months ago actually openly said often that he didn't think he felt sad enough. At the funeral he finally said that it was strange that he felt a little bit sad. I never saw him cry.

I do not believe this is a sign that he murdered my grandmother.

ETA: And that was his own mother. Not his flatmate that he knew for a couple of months tops.

The writer Emerson said this when his 6 year old son died. It is called discossiation.

 

[Sonata]

Right, Peterson/Anthony not a good comparison - with the other two, a wife and a daughter were lost. With Knox, this was someone she had only known a brief time, had no history with, and had been more or less rejected by. She may have felt there was little to cope with. Grieving may not have been the norm in this case at all. So maybe there was no ugly coping.

Good point SMK. I don't think we can apply the same framework (if some posters insist on applying one...)

 

[mdana]

Mark Geragos introduced the abnormal grieving as normal when defending Scott Peterson, Ms Anthony's lawyer picked up on it. If we are attributing abnormal grieving to Knox, then she is not in very good company. Ugly coping is what Peterson and Anthony did. Are we saying that Knox was "ugly coping" when she was crass while providing new information to Meredith's friends about how she died, went lingerie shopping right after the murder and blew off the memorial?

I doubt there is anyone on either side well versed enough to identify "normal" grieving as opposed to "abnormal". It is highly subjective for the person doing the grieving and the outsider judging that person's reactions. This is just a misdirectional fallacy disguised as "facts". Randall Adams was too unemotional to be innocent. Todd Willlingham was supposed to be overacting because his emotions were deemed not consistent with an innocent person.

 

[SMK]

I get it. In the US, it is normal to party when in mourning. US trials and courts prove this to be true.

The rest of the world understands that this is a normal way to mourn in the United States.
The rest of the world also has a different definition for mourning.

Actually, yes. There have been books written about the inappropriate mourning style in the U.S. I know, as I read a ton of grieving books when my husband died at 46. In the U.S., it is considered noble to laugh and continue on joyfully with life. There is a lot of death denial. In any case, Meredith and Amanda were not close, so grieving was not appropriate in any case. One day of upset and crying - which we know Amanda had - was enough for an American.

 

[Sonata]

I doubt there is anyone on either side well versed enough to identify "normal" grieving as opposed to "abnormal". It is highly subjective for the person doing the grieving and the outsider judging that person's reactions. This is just a misdirectional fallacy disguised as "facts". Randall Adams was too unemotional to be innocent. Todd Willlingham was supposed to be overacting because his emotions were deemed not consistent with an innocent person.

Exactly. And let me also add to this that those who do know their stuff on these matters will maintain that 'normal' in a grief situation is impossible to determine. Source: I come from a long line of mental health professionals.

 

[mdana]

Letter read by Hellmann

At the opening of the hearing, the President of the Assize Court of Appeal Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, read a letter he sent from the manager draws a central section of forensic crime. In the letter the manager defends the scientific work of defining the expertise of professors Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti "damaging" the image of the police

http://translate.google.com/transla...ttera-dirigente-scientifica_312299830701.html

ETA

"A letter from Piero Angeloni, head of the Italian forensic police service in Rome, was read to the court Saturday defending the work of his department, for which Stefanoni works.

The service had never been subject to criticism before and used state-of-the-art equipment, his letter said.

Stefanoni is expected to question Vecchiotti and Conti on how they reached their conclusions"

http://www.news4jax.com/news/28714145/detail.html

Notice how there no addressing of any of the criticism, just deflection to unrelated issues.

I think this is the defense Arthur Andersen should have used when accused of fraud in the Enron audit back in 2001.

"Arther Anderson has never been subject to criticism before and used state-of-the-art computers and calculators."

I am sure after such a comprehensive defense like that they would have been acquitted.

 

[SMK]

More on today's final court hearing:

Amanda Knox Cop Defends DNA Evidence12:04pm UK, Saturday July 30, 2011
Nick Pisa, Perugia
A police chief has defended his forensic science team after they were branded incompetent by experts in the Amanda Knox appeal trial. . . .

In a letter to the court Mr Angeloni said:''My department adheres to all the recognised international protocols and carries out more than 25,000 crime scene investigations every year.

''Never has anyone questioned our methods before in such a way. All my staff are highly professional and are taught by experts over a four month course and they have a yearly audit.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16040314

Amanda Knox appeal: Italian police defend handling of evidence in Meredith Kercher murder trial
Police who collected evidence from the Meredith Kercher murder scene have dismissed accusations that they badly bungled the investigation which led to the conviction of the American student Amanda Knox.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8672327/Amanda-Knox-appeal-Italian-police-defend-handling-of-evidence-in-Meredith-Kercher-murder-trial.html

 

[otto]

Bonnano actually did research after Katrina about 'ugly coping' and found that 2/3 survivors fell under that category which is linked to general resilience. Only 10% of survivors needed professional mental help.

So after the prisons were opened in New Orleans, during a hurricane, there was a lot of ugly coping? Did a high number of people party hard after the hurricane even though someone in their home had been murdered? I read about wrongful deaths, not party weirdos, after the hurricane.

 

[Sonata]

So after the prisons were opened in New Orleans, during a hurricane, there was a lot of ugly coping? Did a high number of people party hard after the hurricane even though someone in their home had been murdered? I read about wrongful deaths, not party weirdos, after the hurricane.

I am really not sure what your question is here. I was referring to research on the concept which you brought up as evidence of guilt.

Not sure what the prison reference is... or the partying (seems like ONE possible aspect of 'ugly coping').

As I said, I saw reference of this research and thought it was relevant so mentioned it. I do not know any specifics of it.

 

[otto]

Exactly. And let me also add to this that those who do know their stuff on these matters will maintain that 'normal' in a grief situation is impossible to determine. Source: I come from a long line of mental health professionals.

I don't think I'll ever see anyone in my life that is "ugly coping" after the murder of a loved one. It hasn't happened yet, and it seems to be so rare that most people will not encounter it. Perhaps in the mental health industry you see more "ugly copers", but that doesn't make it normal.

 

[mdana]

You might visit that view from wilmington blog. he does a fabulous job breaking down what all the DNA means. Also might review the report which someon translated on a blog. I'll try to find the links for you.

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot....d-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=7

You gotta search through to find what you need.

I have come across Halkides quite often and in the past have found him very informative. However, on this issue I have found his writing very obtuse and too oriented towards a reader with a much higher level of understanding of the concepts than an average person of normal intelligence.

A person with little to no background on these ideas and concepts need analogies or some form of reference. That is lacking in all his postings on these findings. It reads too inside baseball for me.

 

[otto]

I am really not sure what your question is here. I was referring to research on the concept which you brought up as evidence of guilt.

Not sure what the prison reference is... or the partying (seems like ONE possible aspect of 'ugly coping').

As I said, I saw reference of this research and thought it was relevant so mentioned it. I do not know any specifics of it.

To suggest that after the prisons were emptied in New Orleans during a hurricane, that finding a murdered love one in the home resulted in a higher incidence of "ugly coping" ... doesn't make sense.

 

[Sonata]

I don't think I'll ever see anyone in my life that is "ugly coping" after the murder of a loved one. It hasn't happened yet, and it seems to be so rare that most people will not encounter it. Perhaps in the mental health industry you see more "ugly copers", but that doesn't make it normal.

I would hope you will never have to witness close ones mourning due to a murder. That in itself is rare.

Yes, you do see more ugly coping in the mental health service. My mother is a psychotherapist and would see a lot of this as it is exactly the kind of situation she would deal with. My stepfather would also see a lot as a psychiatrist. However, the distinction is that my stepfathers patients are legally considered 'abnormal' (and in fact he regularly deals with murderers within prison facilities) whereas my mothers patients are self-referred, and are functioning members of society who chose to seek help dealing with their emotions.

So called ugly coping can be found in both such arenas.

 

[mdana]

I don't think I'll ever see anyone in my life that is "ugly coping" after the murder of a loved one. It hasn't happened yet, and it seems to be so rare that most people will not encounter it. Perhaps in the mental health industry you see more "ugly copers", but that doesn't make it normal.

Exactly how old are you? I have come across this numerous time in my lifetime. A couple of times before I was 10. Of course both my parents were nurses, and I worked in healthcare for almost 15 years, so I my experience may not be "normal." However, even in friends and family deaths I have encountered it more times than not. After almost every family death there is at least one person who is deemed not to be "grieving" correctly.

 

[Sonata]

To suggest that after the prisons were emptied in New Orleans during a hurricane, that finding a murdered love one in the home resulted in a higher incidence of "ugly coping" ... doesn't make sense.

Take it up with Bonnano. He did the research and coined the term. Not me.

 

[Sonata]

Exactly how old are you? I have come across this numerous time in my lifetime. A couple of times before I was 10. Of course both my parents were nurses, and I worked in healthcare for almost 15 years, so I my experience may not be "normal." However, even in friends and family deaths I have encountered it more times than not. After almost every family death there is at least one person who is deemed not to be "grieving" correctly.

Well said.

Also I think those of us with experience in such fields are less likely to have an 'abnormal' view on this. It results in a broader spectrum of reference rather than a localised experience within one particular social arena.

 

[otto]

Actually, yes. There have been books written about the inappropriate mourning style in the U.S. I know, as I read a ton of grieving books when my husband died at 46. In the U.S., it is considered noble to laugh and continue on joyfully with life. There is a lot of death denial. In any case, Meredith and Amanda were not close, so grieving was not appropriate in any case. One day of upset and crying - which we know Amanda had - was enough for an American.

Knox phoned Meredith several times on Halloween evening. She was desperate to find out where the parties were but Meredith didn't invite her to join. Are you sure that Knox didn't act as though she thought they were friends?

Knox didn't spend a day crying. She discovered the break in, had a shower, wandered around town with a mop, had lunch, went to the cottage with Sollecito, police accidentally arrived, Meredith was found, they caught a ride to the police station with Filomina's friends (who were suspicious of the pair), sat around for hours, teased and swore, told some lies, went back to Sollecitos, lied some more, went lingerie shopping, went back to Sollecitos. Skipped the Memorial. Lied to police some more.