Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[SkewedView]

When you use the acronym LE, which police force are you referring to?

LE is a standard acronym on this site that stands for Law Enforcement. It is usually preceded by the initial of the force in question, unless it is being used in a general way.

Thus ILE is Italian Law Enforcement, PLE is Perugian Law Enforcement.

If I use the general LE, I am talking about the Law Enforcement community as a whole (and yes, it is an international community these days, something that Interpol and the FBI started in the spirit of cooperation and advancement of techniques, that the EU and others later expanded upon).

 

[otto]

LE is a standard acronym on this site that stands for Law Enforcement. It is usually preceded by the initial of the force in question, unless it is being used in a general way.

Thus ILE is Italian Law Enforcement, PLE is Perugian Law Enforcement.

If I use the general LE, I am talking about the Law Enforcement community as a whole (and yes, it is an international community these days, something that Interpol and the FBI started in the spirit of cooperation and advancement of techniques, that the EU and others later expanded upon).

Carabinieri and Postal Police are two of the eight Italian police forces involved in the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher. The Carabinieri are regional, or territorial, police; military corps with police duties. It's not that the Carabinieri are Perugia police officers, but rather that they are governed by a Chief of Staff in Rome to oversee provinces and regions in the country. The Carabinieri have been the primary investigators in the murder and, being that they are not specifically Perugia police, I think it is probably more accurate to describe them as an Italian police force rather than a Perugia police force.

 

[Nova]

Just to be clear, I was not specifically addressing you, but posters in general - it's something that I've been meaning to bring up, and this just happened to be when I had a chance and wasn't distracted. Just didn't want you to feel singled out, since we've all done this.

Not to worry. I didn't take it personally or feel singled out.

When you're right, you're right! (And so often you are.)

 

[Allusonz]

New Dempsey blog

"The judge said, 'OK. There will be a 30 minute recess to find those files'. When court resumed Comodi said the files could not be found. The judge said, 'You've been shown to not be forthcoming, and honestly, it wouldn't change the outcome because we now have their report so I won't allow it (in the future.)

http://www.westseattleherald.com/2011/07/30/news/update-2-final-hearing-amanda-knox-today-not-so-f

 

[Allusonz]

I have to admit that I never thought that I would be posting what I have to say. I have for the most part felt that PLE were sorely lacking in training more than stating that there was a probability of tampering, but I must admit that the more that is being presented, the more details I am learning, that there is indeed a probable corruption issue within PLE. How high that corruption goes remains to be seen. As well I am still surprised I am even stating this....sigh

 

[otto]

I have to admit that I never thought that I would be posting what I have to say. I have for the most part felt that PLE were sorely lacking in training more than stating that there was a probability of tampering, but I must admit that the more that is being presented, the more details I am learning, that there is indeed a probable corruption issue within PLE. How high that corruption goes remains to be seen. As well I am still surprised I am even stating this....sigh

Suggesting that the Carabinieri and military police in Italy are corrupt is very serious. On what do you base this sweeping accusation?

 

[Nova]

I have to admit that I never thought that I would be posting what I have to say. I have for the most part felt that PLE were sorely lacking in training more than stating that there was a probability of tampering, but I must admit that the more that is being presented, the more details I am learning, that there is indeed a probable corruption issue within PLE. How high that corruption goes remains to be seen. As well I am still surprised I am even stating this....sigh

I agree.

 

[otto]

I agree.

... and on what basis would you agree that the Carabinieri are corrupt? Is that the only excuse left to for some to explain why the three convicted murderers sit in jail?

 

[sherlockh]

“There was also the deputy chief of police Chiacchiera, Passeri, Ranauro, Camarda, Rossi and Sisani. In the house there was a strong smell of bleach. He remembered the terms following the first action that he reported at the time: “I was with my back to the door; there was the dishware drawer; I opened it. I opened the top cutlery drawer ... we had clean gloves on, new. The first thing [99] I saw was a big knife. Let me state beforehand that it was extremely clean‛. (This is from PMF)

And so what? That is just his observation. The problem is that MK's DNA is on that knife.

 

[SkewedView]

Carabinieri and Postal Police are two of the eight Italian police forces involved in the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher. The Carabinieri are regional, or territorial, police; military corps with police duties. It's not that the Carabinieri are Perugia police officers, but rather that they are governed by a Chief of Staff in Rome to oversee provinces and regions in the country. The Carabinieri have been the primary investigators in the murder and, being that they are not specifically Perugia police, I think it is probably more accurate to describe them as an Italian police force rather than a Perugia police force.

What you say is true, however, the specific investigating officers involved are native to that region, and are well tied into the local Justice system (much more so than Mignini, IIRC), while the whole rest of LE in Italy are not. As such, for my own part, I prefer to distinguish between the forces that are actually involved in this case from ILE as a whole (much like I would prefer not to put my own very excellent LE in the same basket as, say, Eskendido LE, even though they are both US LE).

 

[SkewedView]

I have to admit that I never thought that I would be posting what I have to say. I have for the most part felt that PLE were sorely lacking in training more than stating that there was a probability of tampering, but I must admit that the more that is being presented, the more details I am learning, that there is indeed a probable corruption issue within PLE. How high that corruption goes remains to be seen. As well I am still surprised I am even stating this....sigh

Corruption, I'd have to disagree with. What I see is arrogance and apathy, a condition that tends to gradually appear in local Justice Systems (top to bottom) when there is not enough of a turnover in the makeup of the regional LEAs/prosecutors/justices. Even now, I'm doubtful that there has been any true malevelance involved in all of this.

Think more like, they've reached a point in their collective, unwritten policies that results are more important than ethics (and when you think about dealing with a fifty percent turnover rate on appeal, you can see how one would reach that point). Is that wrong? Sure. But corrupt, I'm not sure that I'd describe this type of deteriorating group ethics that way.

After all, testa-lying, coercion and fudging of procedures/results is a common enough affliction globally that various Law Journals, Forensics Societies and Accrediting Agencies are calling it a brewing global human rights crisis, so it's not like this is something unique to Perugia.

All JMO, of course.

 

[mdana]

I have to admit that I never thought that I would be posting what I have to say. I have for the most part felt that PLE were sorely lacking in training more than stating that there was a probability of tampering, but I must admit that the more that is being presented, the more details I am learning, that there is indeed a probable corruption issue within PLE. How high that corruption goes remains to be seen. As well I am still surprised I am even stating this....sigh

I would in a very limited sense agree with you on the basis that before this report was made public, I thought tampering/planting was just not in any way a real possibility. Basically, I was under the impression it would have been better handled and there would have been more, if it had occured. However, now that certain actors have been shown to be on par with the Keystone Kops of yestyear, I can't completely dimiss the notion as easily as before. If they were as incompetent in the gathering of actual evidence as they have been shown throughout this investigation, I find it plausible they could have been just as incompetent in manufacturing it.

I am still working under the probability it was just a combination of laziness, incomptence, and tunnel vision in the gathering and collection of evidence. I have used Occam's razor throughout this process and see no reason to discard it on this issue.

 

[wasnt_me]

Just a small observation here:

Perhaps it would behoove us to distinguish between Italian LE in general and Perugian LE specifically in posts - painting all the LEAs in an entire country with the same brush smacks of nationalism, much like various comments about 'American behavior' etc do. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, it's not really, just an observation/suggestion.

This is true, but we had investigators from perugia and from Rome, correct?

 

[wasnt_me]

I respectfully disagree with this. Strategy plays an important role in the "why" all rulings are for or against you.

Salem

What do you think AK and RS's lawyers' strategies have been? Fyi, I didn't follow those other two cases you were referring to.

 

[wasnt_me]

And so what? That is just his observation. The problem is that MK's DNA is on that knife.

I remember in school, we were learning methods of persuasion for advertising. One of them was repetition. Another was band-wagon. I can't remember the others now, but I can say that constantly repetiting that MK's DNA was on the knife has caused others to get on that "bandwagon," even though it's not a true fact.

 

[mdana]

i will simply agree to disagree. For example when a defense team is only allowed to use italian experts and not the ones of their own choice no matter what nationality they are ties the defenses hands behind their backs

oh, i agree. No argument from me. However, i would speculate that the strategy behind this was a move of protest from the prosecutor's side. And for whatever reason, the prosecutor won this argument.

Again, i am not arguing the merits of the case or the facts of the case. I am merely watching how each side chooses to fight for the verdict they want. That's all. I am recognizing that in some cases it appears that the evidence and the facts do not wholly determine the outcome of a case.

Salem

this article explains the use of expert witnesses in italy: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1189442

it looks like expert witnesses appear according to the trial judge for the purpose of getting to the truth, not according to lawyers for the purpose of swaying an argument. When there are italian experts in a particular field, what would be the purpose of introducing foreigners with the same credentials and expertise?

Absolute parity between experts does not exist in the real world. Some experts may be well versed in a certain field but may have old-fashioned ideas or techiniques that are no longer the best practice, or newer ones may support procedures that are not yet shown to be (and may never be) legitimate. So limiting yourself to national experts only, may limit your search for the truth.

I have always found the judges in the first trial wearing of the Italian national colors on their judicial sash to be very provincial and reek of insecurity, JMO. Perhaps they are still doing this, but I have not noticed this sartorial choice in the pictures of Judge Hellman and this trial.

 

[wasnt_me]

I would in a very limited sense agree with you on the basis that before this report was made public, I thought tampering/planting was just not in any way a real possibility. Basically, I was under the impression it would have been better handled and there would have been more, if it had occured. However, now that certain actors have been shown to be on par with the Keystone Kops of yestyear, I can't completely dimiss the notion as easily as before. If they were as incompetent in the gathering of actual evidence as they have been shown thought this investigation, I find it plausible they could have been just as incompetent in manufacturing it.

I am still working under the probability it was just a combination of laziness incomptence, and tunnel vision in the gathering and collection of evidence. I have used Occam's razor throughout this process and see no reason to discard it on this issue.

I'll tell you what cinched the manufacturing of evidence for me.

1. Stephanoni refuses to release her fsa files to the defense.
2. 3/4 computers in the investigation get fried, and the judge refuses the defenses request to have one of the computer manufacturers look at it, after they'd exhausted all other means.
3. Stephanoni lies about TMB tests. She says she didn't do them, but she did.
4. Stephanoni, when caught in her lie, still insists that even though the TMB tests says no blood, there is indeed blood.
5. Said footprint might be actually facing the crime scene instead of leading away from it, but they still insisted they are bloody footprints.
6. cites that places on the knife had haematic substance on it, but test results clearly say there's no blood on the knife. If i understand correctly each spot she randomly chose to test came up with some type of result.
7. Questipned V&C by asking if Stephanoni really had to record her neg. controls, because a doctor never recorded washing his hands; however then turned around and told the judge they had a report of stephanoni "washing her hands," essentially. Then after a half hour could not produce said results.
8. Swore they changed gloves and footies when there is video proof that they did not.
9. Giftwrapped a mop with wrapping from the murder scene. A mop, I say.
10. And then released this photo to the press, knowing good and well it's not blood.

So when I hear that they videotaped people passing the bra clasp around like they found a piece of a meteor, And suddenly that's the piece with RS's DNA on it, and it comes a day or so after they loose the shoe print as being RS's and it's a clasp that they photographed before, but supposedly now they'd just left it on the floor for 46 days, I can't help but think that bra clasp had a round trip ticket from the cottage to the lab, then right back to the cottage and to the lab again. Now I wonder if it were really AK's blood on the sink.

I feel david letterman needs to do a top 10 on these folks.

 

[wasnt_me]

Mdana,

That's an interesting observation, since Italy just changed their justice system. They went from accusitoral to the innocent until proven guilty, yet a lot of those still working in the system are older, seasoned representatives who spent most of their careers under accusitorial. Maybe Hellman is part of that change of the guard, who wants to uphold the new way. I don't know how long his career has been, but it's possible.

 

[wasnt_me]

So, boys and girls, what of the hallway footprints leading TOWARD the bloody room and now away from it?

Does anyone know if it's true? I have not seen the prints with respect to the floor and the way they were facing. Anyone know? Frank said they were facing MK's room, not going away from it.

 

[emyr]

So, boys and girls, what of the hallway footprints leading TOWARD the bloody room and now away from it?

Does anyone know if it's true? I have not seen the prints with respect to the floor and the way they were facing. Anyone know? Frank said they were facing MK's room, not going away from it.

I thought it was always known that the footprint outside MK's door was going towards it and not away from it.

If it is a bloody footprint, it is unlikely to be from stepping in blood from the room. It is most likely to come from running water over the foot in the bathroom.