Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[otto]

What you say is true, however, the specific investigating officers involved are native to that region, and are well tied into the local Justice system (much more so than Mignini, IIRC), while the whole rest of LE in Italy are not. As such, for my own part, I prefer to distinguish between the forces that are actually involved in this case from ILE as a whole (much like I would prefer not to put my own very excellent LE in the same basket as, say, Eskendido LE, even though they are both US LE).

The Carabinieri is not a city police force and I think it is misleading to imply that they are.

 

[otto]

I thought it was always known that the footprint outside MK's door was going towards it and not away from it.

If it is a bloody footprint, it is unlikely to be from stepping in blood from the room. It is most likely to come from running water over the foot in the bathroom.

There are luminol revealed prints in the hallway that have been matched to Knox. It's true that one of the prints seems to come from someone standing outside of Meredith's door and facing the bedroom.

 

[otto]

So is it true that now, knowing that the evidence from the knife and bra clasp were tested 12 and 6 days after the machines were used for other related evidence (seriously reducing the possibility of contamination), we're assuming that the Carabinieri are corrupt? I don't see the connection.

Were does the notion of corrupt Carabinieri come from?

 

[otto]

Absolute parity between experts does not exist in the real world. Some experts may be well versed in a certain field but may have old-fashioned ideas or techiniques that are no longer the best practice, or newer ones may support procedures that are not yet shown to be (and may never be) legitimate. So limiting yourself to national experts only, may limit your search for the truth.

I have always found the judges in the first trial wearing of the Italian national colors on their judicial sash to be very provincial and reek of insecurity, JMO. Perhaps they are still doing this, but I have not noticed this sartorial choice in the pictures of Judge Hellman and this trial.

DNA analysis was first developed in the UK, and one of the leading labs in DNA analysis is in the UK. A DNA expert was brought from the Netherlands to testify at the Anthony trial. I think it would have been wise for the Rome experts to explore expert research in either of those two countries and I think the Judge also requested that they explore that option. Unfortunately, the Rome experts did not follow that recommendation from the Judge. I'm not aware of any US experts that trump what is done in Europe but correct me if I'm wrong.

As for what Judges wear in Chambers, I suspect some find the dress of officers of the court in other countries funny too, but at least they aren't wearing wigs! Tradition is what it is ... I don't really see any point in remarking on it ... or am I missing something. Personally, I always found the penguin suits most amusing.

 

[Nova]

Corruption, I'd have to disagree with. What I see is arrogance and apathy, a condition that tends to gradually appear in local Justice Systems (top to bottom) when there is not enough of a turnover in the makeup of the regional LEAs/prosecutors/justices. Even now, I'm doubtful that there has been any true malevelance involved in all of this.

Think more like, they've reached a point in their collective, unwritten policies that results are more important than ethics (and when you think about dealing with a fifty percent turnover rate on appeal, you can see how one would reach that point). Is that wrong? Sure. But corrupt, I'm not sure that I'd describe this type of deteriorating group ethics that way.

After all, testa-lying, coercion and fudging of procedures/results is a common enough affliction globally that various Law Journals, Forensics Societies and Accrediting Agencies are calling it a brewing global human rights crisis, so it's not like this is something unique to Perugia.

All JMO, of course.

Do you reserve the word "corruption" for cases where a member of LE enriches himself though unethical conduct? Because the behavior you list all fits my definition of corruption.

 

[otto]

Do you reserve the word "corruption" for cases where a member of LE enriches himself though unethical conduct? Because the behavior you list all fits my definition of corruption.

That does seem to be the popular thing these days: that the Carabinieri, the Federal Police, are corrupt. Why???

Would you be prepared to accuse the FBI of corruption? What about the Carabineiri in Italy?

Is this nothing more than "I think so" ... "me too" ... "everyone thinks so" ... "it must be true" scenario ... so therefore the Carabinieri and FBI are corrupt?

 

[Sonata]

I'm not saying that I think they are corrupt, but I would just like to point out that it isn't that off-the-wall to think so. Many large authoritarian organisations run with some form of corruption or another. It sort of comes with the territory. I'm not necessarily talking as large scale as is being addressed here, but I certainly do think that generally speaking authority falls into corruption in some way or another at one point or other. JMO.

 

[SkewedView]

That does seem to be the popular thing these days: that the Carabinieri, the Federal Police, are corrupt. Why???

Would you be prepared to accuse the FBI of corruption? What about the Carabineiri in Italy?

Is this nothing more than "I think so" ... "me too" ... "everyone thinks so" ... "it must be true" scenario ... so therefore the Carabinieri and FBI are corrupt?

Actually, the FBI labs really were corrupt! They got caught lying on the stand, fudging results, making results up, withholding evidence and results, destroying evidence - any of these sound familiar? At first, the big shots tried to deny all of it, but then they manned up and cleaned house. Now the FBI labs are some of the most trusted in the world, due to the protocols, safeguards and ethical training that they developed afterward. Of course, in the process loads of cases had to be reviewed and many were freed, and many scientists and technicians ended long, decorated careers in shame.

 

[otto]

I think we need to keep in mind that the murder of Meredith Kercher was not investigated by the Postal Police. They were the unexpected parties returning telephones when Knox and Solecito were discovered at the home where the phones belonged and then Knox explained about a murder ... but it wasn't exactly reported yet except to Filomina ... who was supposed to stumble upon the scene and sully up the evidence with her three friends. What a sordid affair Sollecito and Knox have created after their night of drugged up, hazy memories and imaginings.

No one wants to see Sollecito and Knox incarcerated for the murder of Meredith Kercher if they are not responsible for the murder, but hey ... what about that missing alibi and ... why didn't she do anything when she realized there was more to it than walking with a mop.

Allusionz, the murder weapon was not a mop, but the realization that there was a murder should have come before hauling a mop through Perugia and brunch.

 

[otto]

I'm not saying that I think they are corrupt, but I would just like to point out that it isn't that off-the-wall to think so. Many large authoritarian organisations run with some form of corruption or another. It sort of comes with the territory. I'm not necessarily talking as large scale as is being addressed here, but I certainly do think that generally speaking authority falls into corruption in some way or another at one point or other. JMO.

When you say "you don't think they are corrupt", do you mean the suspects and their defence arguments or the police?

 

[otto]

Actually, the FBI labs really were corrupt! They got caught lying on the stand, fudging results, making results up, withholding evidence and results, destroying evidence - any of these sound familiar? At first, the big shots tried to deny all of it, but then they manned up and cleaned house. Now the FBI labs are some of the most trusted in the world, due to the protocols, safeguards and ethical training that they developed afterward. Of course, in the process loads of cases had to be reviewed and many were freed, and many scientists and technicians ended long, decorated careers in shame.

The FBI are corrupt? No wonder people in the US think that other federal police forces are corrupt. Can anything be done to correct the situation/perception in the US?

 

[SkewedView]

The Carabinieri is not a city police force and I think it is misleading to imply that they are.

You're really attacking me for trying to do the ethical thing here? Seriously? :waitasec:

 

[SkewedView]

The FBI are corrupt? No wonder people in the US think tat other federal police forces are corrupt. Can anything be done to correct the situation/perception in the US?

WERE corrupt - and it was the labs - read before you respond please.

 

[Sonata]

When you say "you don't think they are corrupt", do you mean the suspects and their defence arguments or the police?

I didn't say I thought they weren't corrupt. I said I'm not saying they are. And I stand by that. I do not wish to discuss my theories on that matter as it is so loaded and I do not want to have to spend hours trying to back up something that is just my opinion. Just not something I wish to discuss on here personally.

 

[SkewedView]

I think we need to keep in mind that the murder of Meredith Kercher was not investigated by the Postal Police. They were the unexpected parties returning telephones when Knox and Solecito were discovered at the home where the phones belonged and then Knox explained about a murder ... but it wasn't exactly reported yet except to Filomina ... who was supposed to stumble upon the scene and sully up the evidence with her three friends. What a sordid affair Sollecito and Knox have created after their night of drugged up, hazy memories and imaginings.

No one wants to see Sollecito and Knox incarcerated for the murder of Meredith Kercher if they are not responsible for the murder, but hey ... what about that missing alibi and ... why didn't she do anything when she realized there was more to it than walking with a mop.

Allusionz, the murder weapon was not a mop, but the realization that there was a murder should have come before hauling a mop through Perugia and brunch.

Um, when the Postal Police showed up, AK & RS (RS specifically, for reasons of fluency) had already called the police about a suspected robbery. There was no 'explaining about a murder', because there was no reason for anyone to suspect one at that point. There is nothing to indicate some fiendish plot to get FR to sully the crime scene. Seriously, where do you get this stuff from? :waitasec:

 

[SkewedView]

The FBI are corrupt? No wonder people in the US think tat other federal police forces are corrupt. Can anything be done to correct the situation/perception in the US?

Oh, and just to clear up a little stereotype, polls consistently show that a majority of US citizens trust LE and the courts. Thus why too many people in the US are inclined to equate being charged with a crime with being guilty of it.

 

[Nova]

I think people in general have a strong tendency to trust LE. It's too alarming to do otherwise.

(Perhaps things are different in openly totalitarian countries where official corruption is assumed. I don't know.)

 

[SMK]

The prosecution in the Amanda Knox appeal poked holes in last week's testimony that the forensics that helped convict her was faulty. Barbie Latza Nadeau on the unprecedented scrutiny.

The presiding judge then showed that he is not taking the independent review at face value. Against the defense teams’ protests, he granted a prosecution request to hear more witnesses, including those who collected the evidence. Those witnesses will be heard in September in what is expected to be a firey debate. Patrizia Stefanoni, who led the investigation, has said she is ready to file slander charges against the experts for their accusations and blanket condemnation of her work. She told The Daily Beast that she will also point out that other forensic evidence, including Knox and Kercher’s mixed blood and DNA found in the house, is reliable and is also relevant to the murder.

Cross-examination of the independent experts will continue September 5. With new witnesses now on the docket, the final outcome of this trial may be pushed back from late September to October. Knox, meanwhile, remains cautiously optimistic . . .

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/30/amanda-knox-appeal-prosecution-pokes-holes-in-forensic-testimony.html

 

[SkewedView]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/30/amanda-knox-appeal-prosecution-pokes-holes-in-forensic-testimony.html

I see that the facts are not all that important in this article - the Judge had originally denied the prosecution's request, but was forced to give in to the request of the Kercher's attorney, as the civil paintifs operate under different rules from the prosecution. From many accounts, the Judge was not happy with the delays that this causes.

Personally, I'm glad that the Kerchers demanded this, as this gives the defense an opportunity to point blank demand an explanation for why Steffanoni etc blatantly lied on the stand (this was proven in undeniable fashion, and I'm stumped as to how they can spin this away, except perhaps with more lies and word games). Of course, the defense attorneys aren't all that good at cross examination, so I'm not counting on them being effective.

 

[SMK]

I see that the facts are not all that important in this article - the Judge had originally denied the prosecution's request, but was forced to give in to the request of the Kercher's attorney, as the civil paintifs operate under different rules from the prosecution. From many accounts, the Judge was not happy with the delays that this causes.

Personally, I'm glad that the Kerchers demanded this, as this gives the defense an opportunity to point blank demand an explanation for why Steffanoni etc blatantly lied on the stand (this was proven in undeniable fashion, and I'm stumped as to how they can spin this away, except perhaps with more lies and word games). Of course, the defense attorneys aren't all that good at cross examination, so I'm not counting on them being effective.

Thanks---was hoping this was the case. I wish this case would just wrap up. Until it does, one has to worry, despite the good signs for the defense.